"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 693 - AVS Forum
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post #20761 of 72099 Old 11-21-2009, 09:16 PM
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Hi Mike,

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Or more specifically, do you recommend a directional speaker or a more non-directional speaker such as the quadrapole surround speakers I'm using?

The Wides and Heights for Audyssey DSX should be direct radiators (not dipoles or... quadrapoles--don't know what that is).

Quote:


Also, how important is it to have the width speakers at ear level? I can probably do that, but it sure would make things easier if I could mount them closer to my ceiling. My furniture makes it difficult to mount or place additional speakers along my room's side walls at ear level.

This is the same requirement for having the front L, C, and R at the same height: pans will sound strange (like smiley or sad faces) if your speakers are not at the same height. Same goes for the Wides.

Chris

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post #20762 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 05:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I am obviously missing something here; what is the complaint with full range correction?

Perhaps the issue of having it both ways with limited processing power?
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post #20763 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Chris,
I'm wondering if there's anything in future "Pro" plans to facilitate a sub 300hz only EQ option per speaker group, maybe a curve editor feature? (Sort of like Denon's L/R Bypass option but a L/R +300hz bypass.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Nope. I am aware of the evangelism on this subject, but our own research and that of BBC researchers in the 1960s shows that full range correction is needed. We are trying to convince Denon to remove the L/R Bypass option, but have not yet succeeded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I am obviously missing something here; what is the complaint with full range correction?

Hi Jeff,

You'll have to ask rnrgagne to find out what his specific complaint is.

With regard to what Chris refers to as evangelism on the subject, posting #19458 discusses the controversy regarding equalizing over the transition frequency.

In posting #19469 Chris discusses the subject further.

Larry
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post #20764 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

What if there were a 80 Hz and below-only option in MultEQ and no calculation and filter resources were used above that? Would that allow for concentration of correction power below 80 Hz and stronger filters with the same amount of processing power and storage in the AVR? Kind of like Sub EQ for all channels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Perhaps the issue of having it both ways with limited processing power?

Do you run "full range" speakers on the main channels? Or would you prefer more precise correction on the subwoofer channel? The former, I'd guess, based on you SubEQ for all channels comment?

Also, I'd guess you want this as a free firmware upgrade?
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post #20765 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 08:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Do you run "full range" speakers on the main channels? Or would you prefer more precise correction on the subwoofer channel? The former, I'd guess, based on you SubEQ for all channels comment?

Also, I'd guess you want this as a free firmware upgrade?

It seems that would be a bad guess on anyone that has been in this thread for a while.

Also confused by "free". I would suspect innovations with new models.

What I suspect is, once again, your espresso has not kicked in yet.
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post #20766 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

You'll have to ask rnrgagne to find out what his specific complaint is.

With regard to what Chris refers to as evangelism on the subject, posting #19458 discusses the controversy regarding equalizing over the transition frequency.

In posting #19469 Chris discusses the subject further.

Larry

Thanks for the recap, Larry. I am familiar with this and have read the posts you link. I exchanged PMs with catapult after posting on another thread. He is of the opinion that "With a good speaker in a good room, EQ above 3-500 Hz shouldn't be necessary at all." And I replied that I think it requires a great speaker and a very well designed room. According to Chris, Audyssey's research shows that those are not possible and/or will not matter.

I know that MultEQ XT gave me by far the best main/surround and main/sub integration I have ever had ... right up until the MultEQ Pro calibration was done. And then it was even better.
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post #20767 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

It seems that would be a bad guess on anyone that has been in this thread for a while.

Also confused by "free". I would suspect innovations with new models.

What I suspect is, once again, your espresso has not kicked in yet.

You are right ... about the espresso ... I haven't pulled my ristrettos yet.

If one is not running mains as large, why would more correction power need to be concentrated under 80Hz on all channels?
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post #20768 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If one is not running mains as large, why would more correction power need to be concentrated under 80Hz on all channels?

Maybe for the greater good? ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Sure. It's certainly true that the biggest problems in small rooms are in the lower end of the spectrum.

and Chris gives at least tacit approval?

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Something like that, but a little different may appear one day...

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post #20769 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Maybe for the greater good? ...

and Chris gives at least tacit approval?

Former - a bit vague - and sappy - for a "science' forum.

Latter - out of context and/or stretched to fit your position.

Jeff
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post #20770 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:40 AM
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Waiter, check... Please!!!
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post #20771 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Waiter, check... Please!!!

Or at least get out of the kitchen.
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post #20772 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 10:12 AM
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Here is a link to the specifics for my Audyssey Pro kit attempt #3 -- LINK.

The PDF of graphs is enclosed.

It looks like most of the "after" graphs are close to flat or as expected high frequency curve.

Anyone know why my sub graph is flat, but BELOW the reference line?

Thanks

Mike

 

Audyssey Customer Certificate 11-21-09 - 12 meas - 80Hz cutoff.pdf 147.958984375k . file
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post #20773 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Mike,



The Wides and Heights for Audyssey DSX should be direct radiators (not dipoles or... quadrapoles--don't know what that is).



This is the same requirement for having the front L, C, and R at the same height: pans will sound strange (like smiley or sad faces) if your speakers are not at the same height. Same goes for the Wides.

Thank you for the clarification Chris.
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post #20774 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Not Chris, but I think what he is saying is pretty clear:


Where is there anything questionable in what he has said?

Chris addressed my questions, obviously..
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post #20775 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

The Wides and Heights for Audyssey DSX should be direct radiators (not dipoles or... quadrapoles--don't know what that is).

Hi Chris,

I tried both direct radiators and bi-poles in both the wide and height positions and while I found that the direct radiators were clearly superior as wides the bi-poles were also clearly superior as heights. Not trying to confuse the issue for those looking for advice but I think your system is pretty flexible in this regard.

I just wanted to throw this out there incase someone has an extra set of bi-poles they might be thinking of using as heights since IMO it's worth giving them a try before buying another pair of direct radiators.

One caveat, I'm using the quadrapole mdrew spoke of (really Axiom QS8 bi-pole with tweeters on the horizontal plane and midranges firing up and down). They have an uncanny way of sounding both direct and diffuse as need which may be why I feel they work better as heights than the direct radiators did.

Cheers,
Dean

"Tact is just not saying true stuff" Cordelia Chase.
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post #20776 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Thanks for the recap, Larry. I am familiar with this and have read the posts you link. I exchanged PMs with catapult after posting on another thread. He is of the opinion that "With a good speaker in a good room, EQ above 3-500 Hz shouldn't be necessary at all." And I replied that I think it requires a great speaker and a very well designed room. According to Chris, Audyssey's research shows that those are not possible and/or will not matter.

I know that MultEQ XT gave me by far the best main/surround and main/sub integration I have ever had ... right up until the MultEQ Pro calibration was done. And then it was even better.

Hi Jeff,

Yes, equalizing above the transition frequency is controversial, even among respected professionals. It seems that with the advent of powerful DSP chips that more of these respected professionals are pursuing equalization over the full audible range. For example, Dr. Toole has historically been skeptical of high frequency equalization, yet now we see his protégé, Dr. Olive, doing precisely that with his room correction prototypes. This of course means that most speaker's responses will be altered, even on the high end, to varying degrees regardless of how "good" the speakers are.

Here's an interesting response by Dr. Olive to me on this issue.

The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products

It is also interesting to note that timbre matching approaches, whether it be THX's, Audyssey's or other's, absolutely requires equalizing above the transition frequency. The fundamental reason for doing this is to deliberately alter each speaker's response to make them psychoacoustically similar regardless of whether they are in the front or rear.

Larry
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post #20777 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

Here is a link to the specifics for my Audyssey Pro kit attempt #3 -- LINK.

The PDF of graphs is enclosed.

It looks like most of the "after" graphs are close to flat or as expected high frequency curve.

Anyone know why my sub graph is flat, but BELOW the reference line?

Mike,

All of your graphed responses were below the reference line. (The sub's line was a bit lower than the others.)

FWIW, all of my responses were below reference as well.


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post #20778 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 01:51 PM
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In my room the Wides need to be 21 ft apart in the corners because of windows between them and the LCR speakers. My seating distance is approximately 10 ft. This is over 90 degrees whereas the Audyssey spec suggests 60 degrees. Just how much will this mess up the sound?

Thanks!

Louis
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post #20779 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

In my room the Wides need to be 21 ft apart in the corners because of windows between them and the LCR speakers. My seating distance is approximately 10 ft. This is over 90 degrees whereas the Audyssey spec suggests 60 degrees. Just how much will this mess up the sound?

Thanks!

Louis

Just curious, what angles are your L & R speakers at in relation to the main position?
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post #20780 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:07 PM
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Has anyone tried to use the Audyssey Pro mic and mic preamp in another application like REW? Did it work?
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post #20781 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Just curious, what angles are your L & R speakers at in relation to the main position?

Center to center they will be 7 ft apart giving an angle of just under 40 degrees.

Louis
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post #20782 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

Has anyone tried to use the Audyssey Pro mic and mic preamp in another application like REW? Did it work?

It will "work" but the cal file can't be loaded into REW.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

Center to center they will be 7 ft apart giving an angle of just under 40 degrees.

Louis

No way to get the Wides to 50° or 55°?
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post #20784 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

In my room the Wides need to be 21 ft apart in the corners because of windows between them and the LCR speakers. My seating distance is approximately 10 ft. This is over 90 degrees whereas the Audyssey spec suggests 60 degrees. Just how much will this mess up the sound?

Thanks!

Louis

I think you are misunderstanding the recommendation. You are thinking of 90deg between the two speakers. The recommendation is 60deg each from center line.

If your speakers are 21 ft apart, and you are sitting 10 ft away, they are just over 45 deg off center. You can actually locate them farther apart to get to 60 deg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

Center to center they will be 7 ft apart giving an angle of just under 40 degrees.

Louis

You made the same misunderstanding here, Louis. Your fronts are each 20 degrees off center and could be moved farther apart to be nearer the 30 deg recommendation.

Bill
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post #20785 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdrew View Post

Chris addressed my questions, obviously..

Obviously.
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post #20786 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

I think you are misunderstanding the recommendation. You are thinking of 90deg between the two speakers. The recommendation is 60deg each from center line.

If your speakers are 21 ft apart, and you are sitting 10 ft away, they are just over 45 deg off center. You can actually locate them farther apart to get to 60 deg.

Bill

Bill,

Are you saying that the recommended spread for speaker to speaker on the wides is actually 120 degrees?

Louis
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post #20787 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

Bill,

Are you saying that the recommended spread for speaker to speaker on the wides is actually 120 degrees?

Louis

That's what the figure shows. Everything is measured from the front centerline.
LL
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post #20788 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Mike,

All of your graphed responses were below the reference line. (The sub's line was a bit lower than the others.)

FWIW, all of my responses were below reference as well.



Good pickup.
Thanks.

I guess it was more noticeable becuase the sub line was so flat and looked near "perfect" so I wondered why it wasn't dead on reference.
Of course, if they are all X dB below reference, than relatively everything is okay.
I guess I could now ask why that convention was chosen.

I may stop tweaking for a little while and actually watch some movies and listen to music!

Mike
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post #20789 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI View Post

I may stop tweaking for a little while and actually watch some movies and listen to music!

Mike

Always an excellent idea.
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post #20790 of 72099 Old 11-22-2009, 03:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathelo View Post

Bill,

Are you saying that the recommended spread for speaker to speaker on the wides is actually 120 degrees?

Louis

Yes.
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