"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 697 - AVS Forum
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post #20881 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Franin View Post

Hi Audyssey
I have a Denon AVP A1HD from Australia (European Version) is there anyway we can get Audyssey pro installed in our units like the U.S version has? Is there anyway I can get installed if Denon in europe is not intrested, happy to pay for the software.

Hi Frank,

Unfortunately Denon still restricts the CI firmware to US and Canada. So, units sold outside those areas have different firmware and can't run MultEQ Pro. We are continuing to try to convince them that there are many customers in Europe and Australia that would like this, but it still hasn't happened...

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post #20882 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 07:04 AM
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I redid my measurements of a 16kHz test signal, this time with my Onkyo TX-NR3007 and placing the SPL meter close to tweeter of my front right speaker.
The previous time I had it placed at the first measurement position done with Audyssey.

So the listening modes are either:
a) modes that use the Audyssey Flat Curve and THX Re-Eq can be 'On' or 'Off'.
b) modes that use the Audyssey Flat Curve and THX Re-Eq can not be applied.
c) modes that use the Audyssey Reference Curve and Re-Eq can be 'On' or 'Off'.
d) modes that use the Audyssey Reference Curve and Re-Eq can not be applied.

Basically, anything with 'THX' is either a) or b):
Anything with 'THX' combined with 'Cinema' or 'EX' fell into a).
Anything with 'THX' combined with 'Music' or 'Games' fell into b).

The listening modes were you can end up with double high frequency roll off from Audyssey Reference curve combined with 'Re-Eq: On', category c), are:
- DTS Neo 6
- Dolby Prologic IIx Movie
- Dolby Digital EX
- Dolby Digital
- Neural Surround

This picture shows my test readings with a SPL meter and a 16Khz Dolby Digital test tone.
The Stereo value was measured with an analog signal. I calculated the value relatively
to Dolby Prologic IIx Movie which I also enabled with the analog signal as well
as the 16khz signal.
Pic: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...3&d=1259419145

Please note that the listening mode categories are just me guessing based
on the measured SPL readings.
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post #20883 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Frank,

Unfortunately Denon still restricts the CI firmware to US and Canada. So, units sold outside those areas have different firmware and can't run MultEQ Pro. We are continuing to try to convince them that there are many customers in Europe and Australia that would like this, but it still hasn't happened...

Thankyou for trying. Ive sent emails with responses of "were investigating and studying into it."

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post #20884 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 08:01 AM
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Hello Chris: I have a Marantz SR5003 that utilizes the Multi E.Q. My main speakers go down to 50Hz ( in-walls). Everytime I calibrate in auto, Audyssey sets my crossover to 120Hz every time? Or am I looking at something else. I see this setting in the manual mode only, but when I look at the Audyssey settings everything states auto as there is no db point given? Thanks, Jim
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post #20885 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitenoise View Post

Hello Chris: I have a Marantz SR5003 that utilizes the Multi E.Q. My main speakers go down to 50Hz ( in-walls). Everytime I calibrate in auto, Audyssey sets my crossover to 120Hz every time? Or am I looking at something else. I see this setting in the manual mode only, but when I look at the Audyssey settings everything states auto as there is no db point given? Thanks, Jim

Hi Jim,

Marantz sets a single crossover for all your speakers. Other processors allow individual crossover frequencies for each speaker pair. So, in your case if any of your front or surround speakers are found to have a higher roll off point then the system will set the crossover frequency for that point. This is done to avoid having the MultEQ filters boost below the roll off point.

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post #20886 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:14 AM
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I have always wondered, if audyssey measures for the -3 point then does that mean it is not useful for most sealed subs?

Many very good sealed subs can be down -3 at 45-50hz, not because they are bad down low much because they are so strong in the mid/upper bass.

How does audyssey deal with this? Does it just ignore the sub from the -3 down
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post #20887 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:16 AM
 
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Chris

Do you think I would benefit more from installing a Sub EQ or having an authorized installer do a Multeq Pro Calibration? My room is carpeted 15 x 21 x 8 and opens up into another large room. My current receiver is a Denon 4310. I currently use bookshelf speakers crossed over at 80hz. My sub is a diy 15" w/500watt plate amp corner loaded in the back of the room. I have run Multeq XT a few times attempting to dial in the sub correctly. My bass sounds a little boomy and I feel like I'm missing some mid-bass punch from 30hz to 60hz (kinda guessing here).

Dan
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post #20888 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

I have always wondered, if audyssey measures for the -3 point then does that mean it is not useful for most sealed subs?

Many very good sealed subs can be down -3 at 45-50hz, not because they are bad down low much because they are so strong in the mid/upper bass.

How does audyssey deal with this? Does it just ignore the sub from the -3 down

Wouldn't a "good sealed sub" be designed to be flat above the -3dB point?
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post #20889 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Wouldn't a "good sealed sub" be designed to be flat above the -3dB point?

Nearly ever sealed sub has a natural curve from the high end down. Even if it were flat to the -3 point, without heavy internal or pre-audyssey external eq, all sealed subs roll off at a decently steep curve.

It just seems like audyssey technology is designed to strongly favor ported subs
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post #20890 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

I redid my measurements of a 16kHz test signal, this time with my Onkyo and placing the SPL meter close to tweeter of my front right speaker.
The previous time I had it placed at the first measurement position done with Audyssey.

So the listening modes are either:
a) modes that use the Audyssey Flat Curve and THX Re-Eq can be 'On' or 'Off'.
b) modes that use the Audyssey Flat Curve and THX Re-Eq can not be applied.
c) modes that use the Audyssey Reference Curve and Re-Eq can be 'On' or 'Off'.
d) modes that use the Audyssey Reference Curve and Re-Eq can not be applied.

Basically, anything with 'THX' is either a) or b):
Anything with 'THX' combined with 'Cinema' or 'EX' fell into a).
Anything with 'THX' combined with 'Music' or 'Games' fell into b).

The listening modes were you can end up with double high frequency roll off from Audyssey Reference curve combined with 'Re-Eq: On', category c), are:
- DTS Neo 6
- Dolby Prologic IIx Movie
- Dolby Digital EX
- Dolby Digital
- Neural Surround

This picture shows my test readings with a SPL meter and a 16Khz Dolby Digital test tone.
The Stereo value was measured with an analog signal. I calculated the value relatively
to Dolby Prologic IIx Movie which I also enabled with the analog signal as well
as the 16khz signal.
Pic: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...3&d=1259419145

Please note that the listening mode categories are just me guessing based
on the measured SPL readings.

Hi Rickard,

Thanks, your testing is very helpful in determining exactly what is going on with regard to target curves.

I notice that there appears to be a name change in Neural listening modes between the new and old Onkyo models. For example, on my Onkyo PR-SC886 the manual lists "Neural THX 5.1/7.1" and does not group this mode with the other THX listening modes. The description of this listening mode is identical to the "Neural Surround" mode in the Onkyo PR-SC5507 manual, and I assume your TX-NR3007 manual as well.

When I cycle through the listening modes using the Surround button on the remote control the Neural THX 7.1 listening mode comes up but the red THX light on the front displays does not light.

Earlier we had surmised that the Neural THX 5.1/7 listening modes, despite their name, were not true THX listening modes, but the change in name to "Neural Surround", along with your testing, confirms that assumption.

Thanks again.

Larry
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post #20891 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Nearly ever sealed sub has a natural curve from the high end down. Even if it were flat to the -3 point, without heavy internal or pre-audyssey external eq, all sealed subs roll off at a decently steep curve.

It just seems like audyssey technology is designed to strongly favor ported subs

I don't agree with that. Audyssey can only work with what it finds. I know this might sound harsh, but since many main speakers go to 45Hz - 50Hz, how good is a subwoofer that rolls off at that point? To me, it certainly doesn't seem adequate for home theater use with the material being movies ... movies with LFE channels that go to 20Hz and below.
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post #20892 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

When I cycle through the listening modes using the Surround button on the remote control the Neural THX 7.1 listening mode comes up but the red THX light on the front displays does not light.

Earlier we had surmised that the Neural THX 5.1/7 listening modes, despite their name, were not true THX listening modes, but the change in name to "Neural Surround", along with your testing, confirms that assumption.

Nice catch!
Neural THX 5.1/7.1 -> Neural Surround.
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post #20893 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

I have always wondered, if audyssey measures for the -3 point then does that mean it is not useful for most sealed subs?

Many very good sealed subs can be down -3 at 45-50hz, not because they are bad down low much because they are so strong in the mid/upper bass.

How does audyssey deal with this? Does it just ignore the sub from the -3 down

Hi,

I admit that I don't know much about speaker/subwoofer designs, but the - 3 dB point of a speaker/subwoofer is not really up for much interpretation, is it? Isn't it defined to be the point where the frequency response rolls-off 3 db from the average of the "flat" portion of the curve?

If so, it would seem the only thing up for interpretation is what you consider a "good" sealed subwoofer. I doubt most of us would consider a subwoofer with a -3 dB point at 45-50 Hz as a good subwoofer.

Better subwoofers, including sealed subwoofers, have - 3dB points below 20 Hz and usually have EQ systems. If the natural frequency response of a subwoofer had a gentle negative tilt it couldn't hurt to use that EQ to smooth and level the response before Audyssey did its thing. It's not against the law to use an EQ system in conjunction with Audyssey. However, any aggressive boosting below the - 3 dB point probably wouldn't be a good idea.

Yes, Audyssey, ignores calculating filters below the - 3dB point for any speaker/subwoofer design.

Larry
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post #20894 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 11:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I don't agree with that. Audyssey can only work with what it finds. I know this might sound harsh, but since many main speakers go to 45Hz - 50Hz, how good is a subwoofer that rolls off at that point? To me, it certainly doesn't seem adequate for home theater use with the material being movies ... movies with LFE channels that go to 20Hz and below.

What if something is -3 at 45hz but still puts out 108db at 6-7hz?

Thats is not THAT uncommon for a sealed sub
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post #20895 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

...
Yes, Audyssey, ignores calculating filters below the - 3dB point for any speaker/subwoofer design.

Larry

Larry, how confident are you in this statement as regards subs? When I was measuring Audyssey effects, as well as adjusting the tuning and placement of my Hsu VTF-3, it appeared that Audyssey is more than happy to try to raise the levels below the low -3dB point, around 22Hz in my room, and above the high -3dB point. In the attached graph, the purple line shows the LFE/SW line out with Audyssey off and an 80Hz crossover, and the green line is the SW line out with Audyssey MultEQ XT On and DynEQ Off. I concluded that Audyssey tries to equalize below and above the -3dB points on the sub, but that there is a limit to how much gain it will apply.

Bill
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post #20896 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 12:45 PM
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Also I want to say that the new danley dts puts out 140db+ at 100hz BUT is -3db by 50hz or above yet it can still crank out 108db at 12hz...

The -3 idea is really only good for a narrow sub response. The AS-EQ1 and multEQ XT are looking more and more limited for my application and many others I am sure
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post #20897 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Also I want to say that the new danley dts puts out 140db+ at 100hz BUT is -3db by 50hz or above yet it can still crank out 108db at 12hz...

The -3 idea is really only good for a narrow sub response. The AS-EQ1 and multEQ XT are looking more and more limited for my application and many others I am sure

I think you are confusing frequency response with absolute loudness capability. Frequncy response is measured based on a normalized 0 dB value at a specified frequency (Home Theater Magazine uses 80 hz). Absolute loudness is not a consideration.

However, using your own numbers, that sub is 32 dB down at 12 hz if we normalize at 100 hz. Using more realistic values, say 100 dB SPL at 100 hz, that sub is only putting out 68 dB SPL at 12 hz (assuming the sub's response is linear). I don't consider that very impressive.
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post #20898 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

Larry, how confident are you in this statement as regards subs? When I was measuring Audyssey effects, as well as adjusting the tuning and placement of my Hsu VTF-3, it appeared that Audyssey is more than happy to try to raise the levels below the low -3dB point, around 22Hz in my room, and above the high -3dB point. In the attached graph, the purple line shows the LFE/SW line out with Audyssey off and an 80Hz crossover, and the green line is the SW line out with Audyssey MultEQ XT On and DynEQ Off. I concluded that Audyssey tries to equalize below and above the -3dB points on the sub, but that there is a limit to how much gain it will apply.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I made no comments on raising the levels.

Based on what Chris has stated on numerous occasions I am sure that Audyssey doesn't apply any filters below the measured in-room lower -3 dB roll-off point, or above the upper -3 dB point.

However, that doesn't mean that under certain circumstances that the Audyssey normalization process might not raise the levels in those regions.

Please refer to posting #19438

Larry

EDIT:

To better clarify the issue of applying filters below the - 3 dB point, please refer to the following statement by Chris:

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

MultEQ uses a tapering off method to stop correcting below that point just like your speaker doesn't drop off suddenly below the –3 dB point.

However, the tapering off is for the filter not for the sound. In other words, there is no cutting of bass. Just tapers off the boosting that would normally occur because the speaker is rolling off there.

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post #20899 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I think you are confusing frequency response with absolute loudness capability. Frequncy response is measured based on a normalized 0 dB value at a specified frequency (Home Theater Magazine uses 80 hz). Absolute loudness is not a consideration.

However, using your own numbers, that sub is 32 dB down at 12 hz if we normalize at 100 hz. Using more realistic values, say 100 dB SPL at 100 hz, that sub is only putting out 68 dB SPL at 12 hz (assuming the sub's response is linear). I don't consider that very impressive.

Why not use the numbers I said? Your number aren't impressive I agree. Those numbers can be achieved with a 18" high efficiency sealed sub less than a meter away...

Something like this at 2 meters

"20 Hz - 107 dB
25 Hz - 110 dB
30 Hz - 113 dB
40 Hz - 118 dB
50 Hz and up, over 120 dB"
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post #20900 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Why not use the numbers I said? Your number aren't impressive I agree. Those numbers can be achieved with a 18" high efficiency sealed sub less than a meter away...

Something like this at 2 meters

"20 Hz - 107 dB
25 Hz - 110 dB
30 Hz - 113 dB
40 Hz - 118 dB
50 Hz and up, over 120 dB"

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here, other than showing that the sub appears to roll off at about 12 dB/octave which is typical of a sealed sub. You were the one making a big deal about how loud this sub can play at 12 hz vs 100 hz. In any case, 32 dB down is 32 dB down regardless of the absolute levels.
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post #20901 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:31 PM
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Just that it seems like there is no solution for sealed subs with audyssey, it seems made for ported subs only
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post #20902 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Nearly ever sealed sub has a natural curve from the high end down. Even if it were flat to the -3 point, without heavy internal or pre-audyssey external eq, all sealed subs roll off at a decently steep curve.

It just seems like audyssey technology is designed to strongly favor ported subs

I don't understand how you are drawing these conclusions...They are just plain wrong. All subs roll off below a certain point whether they are sealed or not. The measurement system could care less if the sub were ported or sealed. It simply measures the response and creates a filter to "undo" any peaks or dips that are caused by room acoustics. It also stops correcting below the point where the speaker (sealed or ported) starts to roll off.

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post #20903 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:36 PM
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It a ported design is say very average and -3 around 20hz then that means it has around 100hz worth of EQ filters that can be applied, if the roll off begins around 50hz then we have another 30hz that are ignored. It just seems like there should be a sealed or ported setting you can select in the more advanced products like sound equalizer, pro and as-eq1
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post #20904 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

It a ported design is say very average and -3 around 20hz then that means it has around 100hz worth of EQ filters that can be applied, if the roll off begins around 50hz then we have another 30hz that are ignored. It just seems like there should be a sealed or ported setting you can select in the more advanced products like sound equalizer, pro and as-eq1

That's not how MultEQ works. The filters are not measured in Hz, they are specified by the number of coefficients. The more coefficients you have the higher the resolution and therefore the narrower the peaks and dips you can correct. We are talking about several thousand coefficients in the subwoofer filters. Think of it as using a few thousand points to draw in the response.

The algorithm looks at the sub's response without any need to know if it's ported or not. It will eventually start to roll off. That's what "the -3 dB point" means: it's the beginning of the rolloff. At that point the boosting in the MultEQ filter starts to taper to follow the slope and avoid overboosting.

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post #20905 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here, other than showing that the sub appears to roll off at about 12 dB/octave which is typical of a sealed sub. You were the one making a big deal about how loud this sub can play at 12 hz vs 100 hz. In any case, 32 dB down is 32 dB down regardless of the absolute levels.

My understanding is that this typical 12 dB/octave roll off of sealed subs is typically balanced by room gain, so that the net in room response is a quite flat down much further. And I presume that Audyssey measures this net in room output, so that there should be little problem with sealed subs.
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post #20906 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

It a ported design is say very average and -3 around 20hz then that means it has around 100hz worth of EQ filters that can be applied, if the roll off begins around 50hz then we have another 30hz that are ignored. It just seems like there should be a sealed or ported setting you can select in the more advanced products like sound equalizer, pro and as-eq1

In my opinion, any speaker whose in-room frequency response as determined by Audyssey (or any other system), is 3 dB down at 50 hz, is not a subwoofer. I don't care how loud it can play.
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post #20907 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

What if something is -3 at 45hz but still puts out 108db at 6-7hz?

Thats is not THAT uncommon for a sealed sub

What good is output at 6Hz - 7Hz if it is >10dB down? Can you post a link to a sub that is -3dB at 45-50 and still output at 6-7?

edit: make that -32dB
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post #20908 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

My understanding is that this typical 12 dB/octave roll off of sealed subs is typically balanced by room gain, so that the net in room response is a quite flat down much further. And I presume that Audyssey measures this net in room output, so that there should be little problem with sealed subs.

Agreed. I think goonstopher is just hung up on loudness.
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post #20909 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:50 PM
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Agreed. I think goonstopher is just hung up on loudness.

You are on a roll.
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post #20910 of 72238 Old 11-28-2009, 01:52 PM
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Then let me quickly ask.

With a sub with a 12db an octave rolloff like the one specked before and a sub that is generally flat from 18-100 (+/-5db) would as-eq1 be able to integrate them?

Would the summed response below of both need to be pulled down up high and possibly low? Especially since the first sub has a max spl above 50hz that is exaggerated.

I am just left wanting a sealed sub for the near field to increase my mid bass slam but am worried that the benefits of adding one would be counteracted by audyssey
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