"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 871 - AVS Forum
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post #26101 of 71785 Old 04-19-2010, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

Chris indicated differently when he wrote recently describing how DynEQ takes into account changes in the trim levels as establishing a new preference curve:

I have the Onkyo NR3007, which allows me to change the Audyssey Reference level (0dB - default; +5dB, +10dB, +15dB).

Is it true that when I increase the trim levels of ALL channels by +5dB, and then set the Audyssey reference level to +5dB (rather than the default of 0dB), this can prevent Dynamic EQ from boosting the bass too much when I'm watching movies (which are supposed to be mixed at 0dB reference level)?
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post #26102 of 71785 Old 04-19-2010, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominickwok View Post

I have the Onkyo NR3007, which allows me to change the Audyssey Reference level (0dB - default; +5dB, +10dB, +15dB).

Is it true that when I increase the trim levels of ALL channels by +5dB, and then set the Audyssey reference level to +5dB (rather than the default of 0dB), this can prevent Dynamic EQ from boosting the bass too much when I'm watching movies (which are supposed to be mixed at 0dB reference level)?

I'll take that as two separate questions. If you increase the Audyssey reference level to +5dB, then this will reduce the adjustments DynEQ makes to the content. This effect happens without making any changes to the trims.

Now, separately, as I read Chris's comment, it seems to indicate that if you increase the trim levels of all channels by +5dB, the system is now 5dB louder. DynEQ knows this, so whereas normally it makes no changes when the master volume is at 0dB for reference levels, it now knows that reference volume is reached when the master volume is -5dB. This doesn't change the impact introduced by DynEQ, it really just changes the number on the front panel that represents reference.

So if your goal is to reduce the changes introduced by DynEQ, you can do that by changing the Reference Level alone, without touching the trims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Dynamic EQ is calibrated so that a reference input level produces reference SPL (at master volume 0) with the trim settings found by MultEQ.

Channel trim changes in the AVR are passed by the microprocessor to the Dynamic EQ module.

If all the channel trims are moved in one direction by x dB that has the effect of shifting the reference point. Dynamic EQ will now think that SPL reference is x dB above (or below) 0 depending on which way the change was made.

If only some of the channel trims are manually changed then this will result in a reshaping of the Dynamic EQ curves. In effect, it represents a preference tweak to the loudness model that is used by Dynamic EQ.

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post #26103 of 71785 Old 04-19-2010, 09:18 PM
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I just installed the latest downloaded V3.2 software and cut and pasted the Downloaded cal "mic" file into Audyssey pro in the Program files and volar!! all systems go

Ok this is where it's confusing me. If I follow exactly your way and install the latest version as a fresh install I get a message saying something like "Mic calibration not found do you wish to install anyway" so I select yes. Then i go to the installers section and type in my serial for my mic and proceed to download the file which has a .APM extension not a .MIC one like your saying you get.

So my question is will this work using the .APM file placed in the install directory or do I need to copy the .MIC file off the old original cd that came with the kit?

Thanks guys
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post #26104 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dominickwok View Post

I have the Onkyo NR3007, which allows me to change the Audyssey Reference level (0dB - default; +5dB, +10dB, +15dB).

Is it true that when I increase the trim levels of ALL channels by +5dB, and then set the Audyssey reference level to +5dB (rather than the default of 0dB), this can prevent Dynamic EQ from boosting the bass too much when I'm watching movies (which are supposed to be mixed at 0dB reference level)?

You can use the Audyssey Reference Level offset exclusively to accomplish your goal. This way you have only one setting to fiddle with when you need to change it.

Jeff
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post #26105 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

Now, separately, as I read Chris's comment, it seems to indicate that if you increase the trim levels of all channels by +5dB, the system is now 5dB louder. DynEQ knows this, so whereas normally it makes no changes when the master volume is at 0dB for reference levels, it now knows that reference volume is reached when the master volume is -5dB.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

If all the channel trims are moved in one direction by x dB that has the effect of shifting the reference point. Dynamic EQ will now think that SPL reference is x dB above (or below) 0 depending on which way the change was made.

Bill, if the trims are all moved up 5dB, reference level is raised 5dB. If reference level is raised 5dB, then the changes "kick in" 5dB higher (edited) than previously, i.e. the effect at 75dB is what it had been at 70dB. And they taper to zero at 80dB instead of 75dB.

I think.

Jeff
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post #26106 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Bill, if the trims are all moved up 5dB, reference level is raised 5dB. If reference level is raised 5dB, then the changes "kick in" 5dB lower than previously, i.e. the effect at 75dB is what it had been at 70dB. And they taper to zero at 80dB instead of 75dB. ...

Jeff, I agree. There is no conflict between what you wrote and what I wrote. You are describing what happens if the master volume setting is left unchanged, and the audio is now 5dB louder. I was trying to describe it from the viewpoint that I see suggested in Chris's comment, that -5dB on the dial now represents what 0dB used to mean, giving audio at the same level as before, with the same DynEQ adjustments.

I'll grant you that your viewpoint describes better what happens when only some trims are adjusted. I just thought the other view might explain things better in dominic's case of adjusting all the trims identically.
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post #26107 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

Jeff, I agree. There is no conflict between what you wrote and what I wrote. You are describing what happens if the master volume setting is left unchanged, and the audio is now 5dB louder. I was trying to describe it from the viewpoint that I see suggested in Chris's comment, that -5dB on the dial now represents what 0dB used to mean, giving audio at the same level as before, with the same DynEQ adjustments.

I'll grant you that your viewpoint describes better what happens when only some trims are adjusted. I just thought the other view might explain things better in dominic's case of adjusting all the trims identically.

Confused I was. Had it backwards I did.

Bill, there was conflict between what I wrote and .. what I wrote. I re-read my previous post and changed the work "lower" to "higher."
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post #26108 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 11:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The LFE, or more correctly, the Low Pass Filter on the LFE should be 120Hz. (The LFE channel has content to 120Hz.) This is part of bass management, but is independent from the crossovers on the main channels. Information below the crossovers is routed to the subwoofer.

There's more ... the LFE channel is not the same as the subwoofer channel. All the main channels of content, e.g. movies, map directly to their counterparts in the receiver/processor. All of them except the LFE. The LFE is routed to the subwoofer channel, but so are frequencies below the main channel crossovers.

Jeff

Why does my AVR allow the LFE Xover to be set as high as 250hz ? Will that that effect the cutoff slope? How does Audyssey EQ the LFE channel will it limit it to the 80hz or 120hz or just go as high as the sub can handle if the auto setup sets all the speakers to Large or small @ 60HZ ?
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post #26109 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

Why does my AVR allow the LFE Xover to be set as high as 250hz ? Will that that effect the cutoff slope? How does Audyssey EQ the LFE channel will it limit it to the 80hz or 120hz or just go as high as the sub can handle if the auto setup sets all the speakers to Large or small @ 60HZ ?

Beats the crap outta me. There's no content above 120Hz in the LFE channel, or at least no content beyond the rolled off slope referred to as 120Hz that was set in the mixdown process. And remember there is no LFE channel for Audyssey to equalize. The LFE channel - in the content - is routed to the subwoofer channel - in the room - along with frequencies below the main channel crossovers. So, Audyssey EQs the sub channel.

I would set it at 120Hz and look for other things to worry about.

Jeff
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post #26110 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:01 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Beats the crap outta me. There's no content above 120Hz in the LFE channel, or at least no content beyond the rolled off slope referred to as 120Hz that was set in the mixdown process. And remember there is no LFE channel for Audyssey to equalize. The LFE channel - in the content - is routed to the subwoofer channel - in the room - along with frequencies below the main channel crossovers. So, Audyssey EQs the sub channel.

I would set it at 120Hz and look for other things to worry about.

Jeff

I've been playing around with those settings with Audyssey ON, When watching HD tv in 5.1, (House/24) I hate when there is a bassy sound in the voice, They all do change the tonel balance, But one setting won't work well for all programming, My ears/hearing must be very moody
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post #26111 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:16 PM
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Maybe a little advice here. I am having an Audyssey Pro calibration in two weeks and I am very excited. I am wondering if dynamic EQ (which I absolutely love by the way...best thing since sliced bread) boosts the sub channel in the same manner whether you use one of the preset Audyssey curves or if you manually alter the curve . The Pro version has a curve editor that allows calibrators to customize the frequency response......does anyone know if customizing that curve would effect how much Dynamic Eq boosts the bass. Thanks.

Also regarding multXT which I use for now........I like a little extra bass...nothing crazy, but I usually find that I raise the Audyssey trim by 2 db. It sets it at -10 and I raise it to -8.

If I were to leave it at -10 (dynamic EQ on), how would the bass compare to raising the subs trim to -8 (dynamic EQ on).

My understanding is that dynamic EQ would boost the bass more when sub trim is -10 than when I manually raise it to -8. So would dynamic EQ's more aggressive boost at -10 negate my raising of the subs trim (since at -8 dynamic EQ is boosting less). I am thinking it would not negate it, but would tighten the spread so to speak.

What if I left the sub trim level at -10 in the AVR, but raised the gain on my sub by one or two clicks? This would fool dynamic EQ......but maybe there are negatives to this approach as well. Thoughts. Thanks.

Edit: Just had a thought that if I were to leave sub trim at -10 in the AVR and raise the gain on the sub by 2 db... then I would in reality be getting sub volume of -8 with dynamic EQ correction curve associated with -10.

Also, this is all based upon the fact that I watch the majority of my movies at -20 to -18 max.....wife factor. I really love how dynamic EQ makes movies impactful even at -20
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post #26112 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

I've been playing around with those settings with Audyssey ON, When watching HD tv in 5.1, (House/24) I hate when there is a bassy sound in the voice, They all do change the tonel balance, But one setting won't work well for all programming, My ears/hearing must be very moody

I think it's probably the varying TV content that is "moody."

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #26113 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I think it's probably the varying TV content that is "moody."

I have a dream that oneday one setting will work for all
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post #26114 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Maybe a little advice here. I am having an Audyssey Pro calibration in two weeks and I am very excited. I am wondering if dynamic EQ (which I absolutely love by the way...best thing since sliced bread) boosts the sub channel in the same manner whether you use one of the preset Audyssey curves or if you manually alter the curve . The Pro version has a curve editor that allows calibrators to customize the frequency response......does anyone know if customizing that curve would effect how much Dynamic Eq boosts the bass. Thanks.

I think DEQ works the same regardless of whether the baseline is Audyssey Reference, Audyssey Flat of a customized target curve. If you've goosed the bottom, then that's where it will start from. Ditto the higher frequencies.

Quote:
Also regarding multXT which I use for now........I like a little extra bass...nothing crazy, but I usually find that I raise the Audyssey trim by 2 db. It sets it at -10 and I raise it to -8.

If I were to leave it at -10 (dynamic EQ on), how would the bass compare to raising the subs trim to -8 (dynamic EQ on).

My understanding is that dynamic EQ would boost the bass more when sub trim is -10 than when I manually raise it to -8. So would dynamic EQ's more aggressive boost at -10 negate my raising of the subs trim (since at -8 dynamic EQ is boosting less). I am thinking it would not negate it, but would tighten the spread so to speak.

What if I left the sub trim level at -10 in the AVR, but raised the gain on my sub by one or two clicks? This would fool dynamic EQ......but maybe there are negatives to this approach as well. Thoughts. Thanks.

Edit: Just had a thought that if I were to leave sub trim at -10 in the AVR and raise the gain on the sub by 2 db... then I would in reality be getting sub volume of -8 with dynamic EQ correction curve associated with -10.

Also, this is all based upon the fact that I watch the majority of my movies at -20 to -18 max.....wife factor. I really love how dynamic EQ makes movies impactful even at -20

Somebody else or Chris is going to have to address this. I do not have DEQ and haven't applied myself - my teachers always told me that, too - to grasping all of how doing this or that changes DEQ.
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post #26115 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

I have a dream that oneday one setting will work for all

A lot of folks, including myself, have achieved that dream. I am very very impressed with MultEQXT with DynEQ/DynVol implemented in my Denon 2809ci. I never adjust the bass anymore.

It was boomy at times until I found a good spot for the sub (out of the corner) and used a nice close mic grouping (within 2-3' from MLP) in my room. And this without the DynEQ offset or TV input trimmed. However, I am fairly discriminate in my HDTV viewing and use DynVol on Evening for TV.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #26116 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 01:48 PM
 
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

A lot of folks, including myself, have achieved that dream. I am very very impressed with MultEQXT with DynEQ/DynVol implemented in my Denon 2809ci. I never adjust the bass anymore.

It was boomy at times until I found a good spot for the sub (out of the corner) and used a nice close mic grouping (within 2-3' from MLP) in my room. And this without the DynEQ offset or TV input trimmed. However, I am fairly discriminate in my HDTV viewing and use DynVol on Evening for TV.

I'm working on it, It is getting better or I'm getting less picky. Cable HD tv is the last of my EQing problems I can't get just right. The programming varies just to much for just one setting to be just right. The lease common denominator may be the way to go on this one.
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post #26117 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod View Post

Why does my AVR allow the LFE Xover to be set as high as 250hz ? Will that that effect the cutoff slope? How does Audyssey EQ the LFE channel will it limit it to the 80hz or 120hz or just go as high as the sub can handle if the auto setup sets all the speakers to Large or small @ 60HZ ?

I can speculate that the AVR allows you to set the LPF for LFE up to 250Hz because it is a gradual 24dB/octave rolloff like the other crossovers. So, at 120Hz, there is actually a 6dB reduction at 120Hz. Even with a 150Hz crossover, there should still be a 3dB drop at 120Hz. So perhaps Denon lets us set the LFE crossover extra high for the person who is really concerned to avoid any reduction in LFE content at the upper end of its range.

When measuring my sub preout line, I've observed variation in the Audyssey correction up to 160Hz. I don't know if that is where it ran out of filters, or whether it decided that is the upper -3dB rolloff point of the sub in the absence of any crossover.
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post #26118 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 02:29 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

I can speculate that the AVR allows you to set the LPF for LFE up to 250Hz because it is a gradual 24dB/octave rolloff like the other crossovers. So, at 120Hz, there is actually a 6dB reduction at 120Hz. Even with a 150Hz crossover, there should still be a 3dB drop at 120Hz. So perhaps Denon lets us set the LFE crossover extra high for the person who is really concerned to avoid any reduction in LFE content at the upper end of its range.

When measuring my sub preout line, I've observed variation in the Audyssey correction up to 160Hz. I don't know if that is where it ran out of filters, or whether it decided that is the upper -3dB rolloff point of the sub in the absence of any crossover.

I was thinking that about the high Xover point, would a 24dB/octave rolloff be more like a steep rolloff in the audio world, but moving it higher would put more of the subs upper limits in play and being able the cut more low end from all the other speakers, this I believe would greatly reduce any low end phasing issues and the lowend will be that much cleaner sounding.
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post #26119 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 05:05 PM
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Hi, i just got a recond. 9.8. I ran the multieq and everything sounds good. My only question is the sub was measured at 15ft. It is really at about 12 ft. Is this close enuff? All the other speakers were pretty spot on. I thought i turned off all the subs{ velodyne dd15} controls. Should i try to get this closer or is this ok?
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post #26120 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetdaddy View Post

Hi, i just got a recond. 9.8. I ran the multieq and everything sounds good. My only question is the sub was measured at 15ft. It is really at about 12 ft. Is this close enuff? All the other speakers were pretty spot on. I thought i turned off all the subs{ velodyne dd15} controls. Should i try to get this closer or is this ok?

It is OK. Even defeated, the onboard processing is adding 3ms of delay.

HOW DOES IT SOUND?
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post #26121 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 05:19 PM
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Excellent. I am loving this thing. Going to watch The Reader here in a minute.{ after a cigar!} It sounds sooo much better than my B&K 4090 i have been using.
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post #26122 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by streetdaddy View Post

Excellent. I am loving this thing. Going to watch The Reader here in a minute.{ after a cigar!} It sounds sooo much better than my B&K 4090 i have been using.

I'm using its twin sister the OP 885, and I am lovin' it as well! Incredible value.
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post #26123 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 09:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon10 View Post

Ok this is where it's confusing me. If I follow exactly your way and install the latest version as a fresh install I get a message saying something like "Mic calibration not found do you wish to install anyway" so I select yes. Then i go to the installers section and type in my serial for my mic and proceed to download the file which has a .APM extension not a .MIC one like your saying you get.

So my question is will this work using the .APM file placed in the install directory or do I need to copy the .MIC file off the old original cd that came with the kit?

Thanks guys

Hi Simon,

I have had my installers kit for 4 or more months now and when I downloaded the Microphone cal file it came up as A Mic file perhaps Audyssey have sense changed the file format to .AMP..

As Jeff/Pepar pointed out, downloading and installing the latest V 3.2 pro software doesnt contain the Microphone cal file so you need to manually install it the way you are discribing, but as I stated mine was A Mic file not .APM file..

Regardless if performing an Audyssey pro calibration, after entering your lisence key/ Job info, then under OPTIONS A window gets brought up that should show Your Microphone serial number that you then click on to load the microphone cal file..
If this is what you are seeing as described above I suspect the cal file has been installed correctly..

Cheers...
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post #26126 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 10:29 PM
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Have any of you folks had any experience with the difference between the LFE correction that MultEQ Audyssey applies and how that sounds compares to the downgraded 2EQ without such correction? I'm curious how I can go about correcting the sub using the equalizer once I get my 608 receiver. I bought a SPL meter and I wonder how much I can compensate on my own without mutliEQ. If one looks at the following graph it shows a nice correction above 80hz but not much below that which is the traditional preferred cutoff for the sub. Am I correct? http://www.audyssey.com/technology/m...s/graph10.html

I did read that multEQ applies 128x filter resolution to the sub compared to 2x for the satellites. Suppose that would correct for minute details below 80Hz.

Also is it imperative to have a tripod for the Audyssey mic to rest on or can I rest it on a stacked box without throwing off the calibration?
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post #26127 of 71785 Old 04-20-2010, 10:50 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flute View Post

Have any of you folks had any experience with the difference between the LFE correction that MultEQ Audyssey applies and how that sounds compares to the downgraded 2EQ without such correction? I'm curious how I can go about correcting the sub using the equalizer once I get my 608 receiver. I bought a SPL meter and I wonder how much I can compensate on my own without mutliEQ. If one looks at the following graph it shows a nice correction above 80hz but not much below that which is the traditional preferred cutoff for the sub. Am I correct? http://www.audyssey.com/technology/m...s/graph10.html

I did read that multEQ applies 128x filter resolution to the sub compared to 2x for the satellites. Suppose that would correct for minute details below 80Hz.

Also is it imperative to have a tripod for the Audyssey mic to rest on or can I rest it on a stacked box without throwing off the calibration?

Its always good to use a tripod. From my experience, I have used both from low end AVRs (1909 and 607) and it shouldn't be a big issue, 2EQ works just fine. If you find that your HT needs more correction, than you may want to upgrade to multEQ XT. The onkyo AVRs do have a user sub EQ which is very useful.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...364&highlight=
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post #26128 of 71785 Old 04-21-2010, 01:40 AM
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Does anyone else find Audyssey to be complete crap? I guess it really depends on your room but I am in a small bedroom (1.5 by 2x 'king bed' length) and with Audyssey the sound is very muffled or blurred. I took the EQ off and set all the Level Calibration to 0 and now PLIIx sounds a lot more clear or sharp. With everything else (DD, PCM, etc) I just use the Direct mode now.
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post #26129 of 71785 Old 04-21-2010, 02:01 AM
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Does anyone else find Audyssey to be complete crap? I guess it really depends on your room but I am in a small bedroom (1.5 by 2x 'king bed' length) and with Audyssey the sound is very muffled or blurred. I took the EQ off and set all the Level Calibration to 0 and now PLIIx sounds a lot more clear or sharp. With everything else (DD, PCM, etc) I just use the Direct mode now.

Care to share details on how you have been running auto-setup? You should only set the level cal to 0 in case all your speakers are at the same distance from your main listening position, but then you still have to take care of the (somewhat tricky) sub distance issues (provided you have a sub).

Did you read and follow the excellent Audyssey set-up guide in the first post of this thread?
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post #26130 of 71785 Old 04-21-2010, 02:57 AM
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Care to share details on how you have been running auto-setup? You should only set the level cal to 0 in case all your speakers are at the same distance from your main listening position, but then you still have to take care of the (somewhat tricky) sub distance issues (provided you have a sub).

Did you read and follow the excellent Audyssey set-up guide in the first post of this thread?

All the speakers are about 6ft from the listening position with the subwoofer being 6-7ft(because of the size). Oh and for good measure I cut all the wire to the same length too. As for the speakers types, they are 2x 4in satellite speakers. I'm not sure if things would be different if I still had my vintage 90s huge speakers but on these the difference between the Audyssey EQ on and off is HUGE.

The biggest difference I could tell in was in Halo. Oh way I have a 360 hooked up with HDMI. Anyways the SMG bullets sounded all blurred together, almost like how a ported box sounds like. When I went to direct the sound got much more clear. Then when I watched TV i could tell the same thing in the people's voices. It's as if the mid range frequencies were completely overpowered by the lows.

With the EQ off and the level settings all the same, Dolby D now sounds almost exactly like Direct, with the only difference between the subwoofer. I'm assuming that is because of the LFE coding in the source.

I haven't tested using it in a big open room with high ceiling or anything but I would assume it was designed to compensate for those types of environments. Or for the speakers being placed in radically different areas. But in my normal bedroom it did way more harm then good.
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