"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 92 - AVS Forum
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post #2731 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Chris,
Have you tried doubling up an "onboard" Audyssey Pro and the Pro in the SEQ? I'm toying with the idea because of my set up. Thinking of using the SEQ for the mains and their subs, (set to flat for 2ch) and then possibly running the 9.8's Audyssey Pro over top for the 7.1 set up. Any potential issues there?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1965

I wouldn't recommend doing that. Measuring through the Sound EQ will give you additional delay that will diminish the effectiveness of the measurements in the 9.8 (they will see less data because of the additional zeros due to the delay). If you are planning on a Sound EQ, why not use it for the whole 7.1 system and improve performance on all channels?

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post #2732 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nealbell50 View Post

Chris,

If I get the MultEQ Pro done to an Onkyo receiver, does it give you the option for Dynamic EQ like the Denon Receivers? I have not seen anything on this.

Thanks!

No, but Onkyo just announced new receivers with Dynamic EQ--should be shipping in a few weeks.

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post #2733 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ausvette View Post

Like many users here I really appreciate the time you take to answer queries. I think the results of the Audyssey calibration are amazing and I've been able to get a much better result from the techniques discussed here.

Something I haven't been able to establish is which Onkyo models have had the Pro version added via firmware updates ? I have a 875 and would love to be able to do a Pro calibration on it, but I haven't been able to find any info on whether this feature has been added with the firmware updates. Equally I'm unclear if the Pro update also adds the Dynamic Eq which sounds like it would be another "must have" feature from Audyssey ?

Thanks,
Dave.

Thanks Dave.

Currently there are no Onkyo receivers with MultEQ Pro. Only their Integra 9.8 and 8.8 have it. You can see all the MultEQ Pro models here:
http://www.audyssey.com/products/installer_ready.html

There is no planned update by Onkyo that would add MultEQ Pro to their existing line. Look for new products from them and others that support it. They also announced new receivers with built-in Dynamic EQ coming out in a few weeks.

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post #2734 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Nope. Leave the mic where it is and Audyssey will attempt a correction. Moving the mic down prevents that.

Yes but the correction it makes leaves my center sounding so harsh that it is unbearable. I've run it 15 or more times with the same result. lowering the mic reduces this greatly, and though it may throw off other things, having harsh dialog to the point where it is raspy is just not acceptable.

Don't know what else I can try
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post #2735 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Yes but the correction it makes leaves my center sounding so harsh that it is unbearable. I've run it 15 or more times with the same result. lowering the mic reduces this greatly, and though it may throw off other things, having harsh dialog to the point where it is raspy is just not acceptable.

Don't know what else I can try

Your center speaker drops off the high frequencies significantly if you listen off-axis. Unfortunately this is throwing off the MultEQ filters that are overcorrecting for the loss of high frequencies because of the off-axis measurement.

Is there no way to move it forward a little and tilt it up?

If not, one thing to try is to temporarily move the center speaker up higher on a stand so that it is measured more on-axis. Then put it back down on the floor. That's not ideal, but it could help.

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post #2736 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

I wouldn't recommend doing that. Measuring through the Sound EQ will give you additional delay that will diminish the effectiveness of the measurements in the 9.8 (they will see less data because of the additional zeros due to the delay). If you are planning on a Sound EQ, why not use it for the whole 7.1 system and improve performance on all channels?

Chris

Thanks.
I'm happy with the 9.8's Audyssey Pro. I just thought I could kick my mains and their subs' integration up a notch for two channel, by adding EQ between the bi-amp x-over and amps. I figured I could use 4 channels of the SEQ for that and the 9.8 would then have more "resources" to use for the other channels, but I didn't think about the delay effect.
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post #2737 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

I was actually drinking Hefervisen so maybe that's where I went wrong

The funny part was that I dug out my trusty tripod to get the mic at actual ear level vs the first time when I just set it on the top of the seatbacks. Also, when I ran the DD calibration on my Velodyne sub, it measured the flattest bass I've ever had in my room, not more than 1dB variance from 15Hz on up. At least in my room, Audyssey did fairly magical things to the low end. The problem is with the mids and above. I'll report back after I run it again as I'm off to the tennis courts.

Too bad there's not an Audyssey calibration for my backhand ...

John

Hmm, maybe the difference is the near-field reflection off the seat backs that weren't there when the mic was on top? Are your seats leather? Mine are, and I always cover the backs with a towel or blanket before doing the measurements.

Oops just re-read that. You ran the DD EQ after doing the Audyssey? If so do it the other way around and leave it engaged when running the Audyssey. You might want to try your system without the DD's EQ. In my room, I ended up not using my SMS-1 and the bass is excellent.
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post #2738 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

[...]Oops just re-read that. You ran the DD EQ after doing the Audyssey? If so do it the other way around and leave it engaged when running the Audyssey. You might want to try your system without the DD's EQ. In my room, I ended up not using my SMS-1 and the bass is excellent.

I took my BFD out and haven't missed it one bit.

DTS-MA from Flight of the Phoenix was glorious (storm scene, skip the rest of the movie if you value your time). Apollo 13 launch (HD DVD DD+) was also extraordinary.

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post #2739 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Your center speaker drops off the high frequencies significantly if you listen off-axis. Unfortunately this is throwing off the MultEQ filters that are overcorrecting for the loss of high frequencies because of the off-axis measurement.

Is there no way to move it forward a little and tilt it up?

If not, one thing to try is to temporarily move the center speaker up higher on a stand so that it is measured more on-axis. Then put it back down on the floor. That's not ideal, but it could help.

Chris


I wish I could. It's a big center and a tight fit. Tilting it up would mean the support bar of the stand would block the tweeter. I can't even easily remove it as I had to put the center on its shelf and then lower the glass (which holds the tv on top).

I should have left it alone after the carpeting. It sounded good, but I just had to go and mess with it in the name of "accuracy."
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post #2740 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

I wish I could. It's a big center and a tight fit. Tilting it up would mean the support bar of the stand would block the tweeter. I can't even easily remove it as I had to put the center on its shelf and then lower the glass (which holds the tv on top).

I should have left it alone after the carpeting. It sounded good, but I just had to go and mess with it in the name of "accuracy."

If the test mic couldn't hear it properly, then the "listener" probably can't either. To me, this seems like a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed.

Just my $.02.
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post #2741 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

If the test mic couldn't hear it properly, then the "listener" probably can't either. To me, this seems like a fundamental problem that needs to be addressed.

Just my $.02.

Trust me, I've had the same thought as well. However, the mic apparently works by the sound grazing the top of it...so it seems to "hear" a little differently.
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post #2742 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

You might want to try your system without the DD's EQ. In my room, I ended up not using my SMS-1 and the bass is excellent.

I wish I could set aside my SMS-1 but I really can't. My room has pretty bad dimensions and so it has big peaks at around 40 and 60 hz. I have tried Audyssey many times without the SMS-1 and the results of the bass are pretty unpredictable. This is true even when I position the calibration mic tightly around the area of my listening sofa.

Following the advice of Chris, I use the SMS-1 to suppress the big peaks at 40 and 60 hz. After that, I run Audyssey. The result is great! No more boominess. Just tight bass.

In other words, for some rooms, you don't need to run the SMS-1 or other similar parametric eq device. For other rooms with severe bass problems, you need to help out Audyssey through some external parametric eq.
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post #2743 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 06:02 PM
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Absolutely. That's why I said "try-it".
In some rooms it will definitely help, I got the sense that John has a pretty good room if he's getting near flat results before running the DD's EQ.
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post #2744 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Absolutely. That's why I said "try-it".
In some rooms it will definitely help, I got the sense that John has a pretty good room if he's getting near flat results before running the DD's EQ.

Yep, I had pretty good results (+/- 3dB) in my treated room before Audyssey with bass traps, two subs (one a DD-15) and much experimentation with placement. I don't think either approach alone - DD or Audyssey - could fix some of the 15dB peaks and dips I started with...

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post #2745 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Yes but the correction it makes leaves my center sounding so harsh that it is unbearable. I've run it 15 or more times with the same result. lowering the mic reduces this greatly, and though it may throw off other things, having harsh dialog to the point where it is raspy is just not acceptable.

Don't know what else I can try

The obvious answer is to reposition or replace your center speaker. EQ is not a panacea and can only do so much in the face of severe acoustical issues. You might also consider disconnecting the center speaker and using a "phantom center" configuration.

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post #2746 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Yes but the correction it makes leaves my center sounding so harsh that it is unbearable. I've run it 15 or more times with the same result. lowering the mic reduces this greatly, and though it may throw off other things, having harsh dialog to the point where it is raspy is just not acceptable.

Don't know what else I can try

Did you try tilting the mic down so that the signal from the center comes at it at a more grazing angle? There was a fellow a while back who had a problem like this, and his center was also positioned low. He had a Onkyo, and I guess you have a Denon, but it might not hurt to try.
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post #2747 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

You can see all the MultEQ Pro models here:
http://www.audyssey.com/products/installer_ready.html

I think I read (from rnrgagne) that the Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P prepro is also MultEQ Pro ready with the 1.05 f/w, but it doesn't seem to be listed on your site. You might want to check that.
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post #2748 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 07:49 PM
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Onkyo Pro PR-SC885P is MultEQ Pro ready ..the key is listed when I log into my Audyssey account.
Should be the same setup as Integra 9.8

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post #2749 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fyzziks View Post

Did you try tilting the mic down so that the signal from the center comes at it at a more grazing angle? There was a fellow a while back who had a problem like this, and his center was also positioned low. He had a Onkyo, and I guess you have a Denon, but it might not hurt to try.


I had thought about trying that, but what would the downside of this be? Did this work for him?

In the past, I had success just positioning the mic lower. I ran a 6 point setup tonight, instead of 8) and got better results. Chris also had some suggestions for me to try out. I might give the current run a day or two to see how it sounds, but I am trying to work out ways to improve my results.

Ideally, I would like to remove the center from the shelf, put it on a stand high up, run the setup and then put it back where it was. Chris had suggested this. The problem is that the center cannot be removed with out taking off the TV and the top glass shelf.

Now if only I knew someone with a polk cs400i I could borrow for an hour

By the way, what do most people with RPTV's on stands do? This would seem a common issue as I am sure alot of people have their centers lower.
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post #2750 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

I wish I could. It's a big center and a tight fit. Tilting it up would mean the support bar of the stand would block the tweeter. I can't even easily remove it as I had to put the center on its shelf and then lower the glass (which holds the tv on top).

I should have left it alone after the carpeting. It sounded good, but I just had to go and mess with it in the name of "accuracy."

This was my concern initially, as I have a large M&K S150THXAC for a center. I found one with enough space to accomodate the height of the center channel. I am going to say the only way to acheive great results is to find a way to tilt the center up.

can you attach a picture of the stand?
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post #2751 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Ideally, I would like to remove the center from the shelf, put it on a stand high up, run the setup and then put it back where it was. Chris had suggested this. The problem is that the center cannot be removed with out taking off the TV and the top glass shelf.

How far is it from the front of the center to the front edges of the shelves above and below? Where is the tweeter with respect to the shelves (near the top of the box and thus close to the glass & frame that's above it?). Shrouding within the dispersion pattern of the tweeter could do some strange things I think.

Some centers have only about a plus/minus 10 degree vertical dispersion angle and benefit greatly from that small tilt upward.

Harrison
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post #2752 of 71887 Old 03-30-2008, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

No, but Onkyo just announced new receivers with Dynamic EQ--should be shipping in a few weeks.

Chris

This is quite interesting...These are entry level receivers with 2EQ and Dynamic EQ built in..

Currently Dynamic EQ is only available with the MultEQ Pro kit on the Denon 3808CI, and up...

Since the Denon 3808CI and up are upgradable via the web and offer an "Add New Feature" option in the menu, hopefully the Dynamic EQ license will be available for purchase from Denon at some point in the future without requiring the purchase of the full Pro kit...

Fingers and toes crossed...

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post #2753 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robert View Post

Yep, I had pretty good results (+/- 3dB) in my treated room before Audyssey with bass traps, two subs (one a DD-15) and much experimentation with placement. I don't think either approach alone - DD or Audyssey - could fix some of the 15dB peaks and dips I started with...

John

I did a similar thing.

I had a Velo HGS-15. Got a Paradigm Servo-15 v2 - it matches the Velo quite well. Used the RTA of the SMS-1 to optimize location and phase of the 2 subs. The improvement was huge. In spite of this, however, I still find that the use of the SMS-1 parametric eq prior to Audyssey makes a big contribution.

A lot of people are asking if they need to use a parametric eq prior to Audyssey. In my case, it helps. In other cases with less serious bass issues, Audyssey alone may be sufficient.
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post #2754 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

This was my concern initially, as I have a large M&K S150THXAC for a center. I found one with enough space to accomodate the height of the center channel. I am going to say the only way to acheive great results is to find a way to tilt the center up.

can you attach a picture of the stand?

Here is the stand. Note that the tweeter is just about 1/2" below the front support bar of the stand.
LL
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post #2755 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

Here is the stand. Note that the tweeter is just about 1/2" below the front support bar of the stand.

try this. get you one of those floating shelves that have the brackets that are hidden. I think you put the hardware on first then slide the shelf over the hardware. either paint it the color of your wall or get you a stained one. here is a example:
http://www.sleekhome.com/articles/im...7432617922.jpg
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post #2756 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 06:29 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

try this. get you one of those floating shelves that have the brackets that are hidden. I think you put the hardware on first then slide the shelf over the hardware. either paint it the color of your wall or get you a stained one. here is a example:
http://www.sleekhome.com/articles/im...7432617922.jpg

That would put the center way behind the Tv and probably would not hold the weight. I could use the kind of stand they use to hang tv's from....the ones with the adjustable arm. But the wife would never go for that....it would look rather ugly.

Don't any of you have a similar kind of stand?
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post #2757 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

That would put the center way behind the Tv and probably would not hold the weight. I could use the kind of stand they use to hang tv's from....the ones with the adjustable arm. But the wife would never go for that....it would look rather ugly.

Don't any of you have a similar kind of stand?

Balancing aesthetics/WAF against performance is always difficult, and that's exactly where you are right now. And budget is probably part of it as well; you've spent good money for the stand and you're not about to scrap it or take a chance on modifying it. Nonetheless, its construction is compromising the performance of your system.

Can you position the CC above the display?
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post #2758 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

That would put the center way behind the Tv and probably would not hold the weight. I could use the kind of stand they use to hang tv's from....the ones with the adjustable arm. But the wife would never go for that....it would look rather ugly.

Don't any of you have a similar kind of stand?

What about hanging the TV on the wall and putting the CC on top of the stand below it?

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post #2759 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 07:19 AM
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I have a question inregard to levels when running Audyessy on my 805. I find that my levels are -5 to -6db below the 75db reference level when running the calibration from 8 positions. I did a search to see if most left the levels at which Audyssey set them at or if others calibrated each channel to 75db with a SPL meter.

I see mention in one post that they found one of their front speakers at 72db then raised every other speaker 3db. I would think it better to set each speaker to 75db or is better to raise each 3db to match the front speakers? My first calculation point is dead center so this is where I will get my SPL readings from as well. My apologies if this topic has been discussed before but I seemed to get mixed thoughts in my search on this topic.

Thanks for any advice, Bill

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post #2760 of 71887 Old 03-31-2008, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curlyjive View Post

I had thought about trying that, but what would the downside of this be? Did this work for him?

Yes, he finally got decent results with that mic reorientation. But he was using an Onkyo mic, which has a different shape. On the other hand, it isn't difficult to try it and see, compared to a major change in furniture arrangement.
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