"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779) - Page 988 - AVS Forum
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post #29611 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dartan View Post

Hi everybody!

I have just got an Onkyo TX-SR876 and are now runningt Audyssey. I have an Velodyne CHT-10R sub and I am a little bit confused.

When I run the setup with my sub set on default (volume 35/100), Audyssey givs me a -15. Now I have lowered the volume and the value is -6.5dB, but the test signal is very low ( my guess is that I have to crank it up when watching movies)

The rest of the speakers are showing:
LF: -3.5
C: -4.0
RF: -3.5
LB -3.0
RB: -3.0

I´m confused and a newbie, but I thought the tolerance was +-3dB. How can I manage that with my speakers? And why is the sub so low?

Ok, I can admit that I have a 3+2 couch, the 3 is set at the back wall and the sub next to it with the 2 couch in front (L-shape) But still, any suggestions?

dartan, I'm no expert, but your numbers look fine. The 3 db is just where Audyssey measures, I believe, the rolloff for the speakers. I don't see anything wrong with your measurements.

Bob.

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post #29612 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dartan View Post

Hi everybody!

I have just got an Onkyo TX-SR876 and are now runningt Audyssey. I have an Velodyne CHT-10R sub and I am a little bit confused.

When I run the setup with my sub set on default (volume 35/100), Audyssey givs me a -15. Now I have lowered the volume and the value is -6.5dB, but the test signal is very low ( my guess is that I have to crank it up when watching movies)

The rest of the speakers are showing:
LF: -3.5
C: -4.0
RF: -3.5
LB -3.0
RB: -3.0

I´m confused and a newbie, but I thought the tolerance was +-3dB. How can I manage that with my speakers? And why is the sub so low?

Ok, I can admit that I have a 3+2 couch, the 3 is set at the back wall and the sub next to it with the 2 couch in front (L-shape) But still, any suggestions?

That all looks good. The trim levels are all very close which means that your setup is very balanced. Remember, the trim levels are set to be sure the same volume is at the listening position from each speaker.

As to the sub, the test tone is always very low. It does not mean your bass in movies will be low.

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post #29613 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonNo10 View Post


If I've calibrated using Audyssey XT on the NAD using the bypass cable for the EQ unit then calibrating the sub afterwards as normal, if I reset the NAD back to factory settings (it's recommended after any firmware update) is it ok to perform an Audyssey Pro calibration without having to do a XT one? I'm confidant that Audyssey Pro wont override the EQ units measurements but just wanted to ask that question to be 100% sure, as you cant use the bypass cable when performing the Pro cal like you can with XT. So Audyssey Pro should pickup the EQ unit and just bypass it and not apply any eq to the sub?

Just a further point or two ..

Using the bypass with MultEQ XT guaranteed that MulTEQ XT set zero filters for the already (or about to be) corrected sub channel. But applying a Pro calibration "over" the the Sub EQ and not being able to use the bypass will result in Pro further correcting the sub channel.

This is OK and in my case (an AS-EQ1), the Pro calibration improved the bottom end of my system and the integration of it with the mains and surrounds.

Also, once you have applied the Pro calibration, if you redo the Sub EQ setup, you should redo the Pro calibration as well.

And one more factoid which probably is irrelevant in your situation now as long as you continue to use Pro, the latest guidelines for MultEQ XT and the Sub EQ/AS-EQ1 is that it be setup first and then XT be done over it - like Pro - without using the bypass.

Jeff
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post #29614 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

That all looks good. The trim levels are all very close which means that your setup is very balanced. Remember, the trim levels are set to be sure the same volume is at the listening position from each speaker.

Ahhh, the system being very balanced is not a function of the trims being very close. Certainly a trim that is maxed or one that is very, very different from its mates should raise a red flag, but even that may not be an indication that the system is not balanced.

Quote:


As to the sub, the test tone is always very low. It does not mean your bass in movies will be low.

I think this is a common thing and it still passes through my mind when I do a calibration that holly shirt, how do they measure the sub with that puny signal?

Jeff
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post #29615 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 09:51 AM
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When using Audyssey subEQ or SVS AS-EQ1 what are the distances I should enter for the sub in the receiver/pre-pro or do these units automatically override the sub distance settings in receivers/pre-pro?

Vinod
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post #29616 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

When using Audyssey subEQ or SVS AS-EQ1 what are the distances I should enter for the sub in the receiver/pre-pro or do these units automatically override the sub distance settings in receivers/pre-pro?

With a receiver/processor that has "Audyssey" in it, you would set up the AS-EQ1/Sub EQ and ignore the settings that it tells you to enter into the receiver/processor. NEXT, you would set up the receiver/processor Audyssey - NOT USING THE BYPASS CABLE - and it would automatically take care of the distance trim settings.

For gear without Audyssey on board, there will be a "detection" screen in tbhe software with trim and distance settings to be entered.

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post #29617 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 10:53 AM
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Thanks. What if the I have 2 subs & they are at unequal distances, do I enter the distance of the closest sub?

Vinod
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post #29618 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post

... how do they measure the sub with that puny signal?

Remember: it's not the size of the signal that matters. It's how you use it.

Chris

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post #29619 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Thanks. What if the I have 2 subs & they are at unequal distances, do I enter the distan of the closest sub?

The AS-EQ1/Sub EQ will handle the distance of the subS and give you a distance to enter into a non-Audyssey receiver/processor that represents the combo.


Jeff
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post #29620 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Remember: it's not the size of the signal that matters. It's how you use it.

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post #29621 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pepar View Post


The AS-EQ1/Sub EQ will handle the distance of the subS and give you a distance to enter into a non-Audyssey receiver/processor.

Jeff

Quick question. I use the Audyssey with my onkyo 606. I have 2 rows of 3-theater seats. Where would be the best place to place the mike to let Audyssey do it's thing? On the center seat of the 1st row, center seat of 2nd row, or place mic between the 2 to start? Or is there a better place? I know you do 3 placements (center, far right, and far left)

Thanks

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post #29622 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by wouldtoo View Post

Quick question. I use the Audyssey with my onkyo 606. I have 2 rows of 3-theater seats. Where would be the best place to place the mike to let Audyssey do it's thing? On the center seat of the 1st row, center seat of 2nd row, or place mic between the 2 to start? Or is there a better place? I know you do 3 placements (center, far right, and far left)

Hi,
2EQ is the most basic version of the algorithms we offer so it will be hard to cover two rows. I would suggest taking the three measurements on the front row, starting in the middle and moving about 2' to the left and right of middle.

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post #29623 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 12:34 PM
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In general if you have 2 subs at two different distances do you enter the distance of the closest sub in the distance setup menu?

Vinod
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post #29624 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Ahhh, the system being very balanced is not a function of the trims being very close. Certainly a trim that is maxed or one that is very, very different from its mates should raise a red flag, but even that may not be an indication that the system is not balanced

Jeff

I didn't mean balanced in the way I think you are referring to balance. I was simplistically trying to say that the relative volumes of each individual speaker at the MLP are fairly close to one another, therefore needing very little relative channel trim to "balance" the volume of the individual speakers at the MLP. Thanks for catching that Jeff.

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post #29625 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post


Hi,
2EQ is the most basic version of the algorithms we offer so it will be hard to cover two rows. I would suggest taking the three measurements on the front row, starting in the middle and moving about 2' to the left and right of middle.

Thanks. I knew it was first set up for just the front row, since that is all we had, and it sounded very good. Just added the 2nd row after saving for it. I can set it up for the front row and it sounded great up front. Not bad in back, but pretty good. Then tried setting it up for the back row. Back row sounded great, but front row didn't get all the separations. Still good, just not great. I am sure movie thwarted have expensive equipment to calibrate for the entire theater. I am still happy with what I have.

Thanks for your info. It is appreciated

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post #29626 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

I didn't mean balanced in the way I think you are referring to balance. I was simplistically trying to say that the relative volumes of each individual speaker at the MLP are fairly close to one another, therefore needing very little relative channel trim to "balance" the volume of the individual speakers at the MLP. Thanks for catching that Jeff.

Yes, it probably says more about the amp, speaker efficiencies and distances than anything else. I only jumped in because words can be misunderstood if not precise. Not that yours were imprecise.
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post #29627 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:29 PM
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Hi everyone,

Thanks to the wonderful setup guide, I did my Audyssey setup on my Onkyo TX-SR707 this afternoon. I have a couple questions about the results.

The subwoofer level is the primary concern. I did IIg) from the setup guide and ran my first Audyssey setup pass (the Onkyo forces at least 3 listening positions before you can hit 'Save') and got a subwoofer level of -1dB. I figured...awesome!...no need to adjust the subwoofer from the middle of the adjustment range allowed (I have an Infinity Entra Sub circa 2004, and I'm using the Direct input on it).

But then I ran the full Audyssey setup again (my second setup pass), doing all 6 listening positions. When I was done, I ended up with:

FL: -5
Ctr: -7
FR: -4.5
SR: -4
SL -3.5
Sub: -9

BTW, do my ordinary speaker volumes seem OK?

So, as you can see, the sub went down significantly after the first setup pass. I listened to some SACDs and watched some movie clips, and the bass definitely seems lacking (I'm not trying to go nuts with bass, but the sound just feels "hollow" with the sub set at that level).

I ran the setup again (my third setup pass), doing just 3 listening positions to see what the Onkyo would come up with for the sub level. Again, the sub was -9dB.

As a side question, after the third setup pass, I just clicked cancel instead of Save on the Onkyo. That's OK, right? I still retained all the settings from my full second setup pass? I'm just worried that even running the setup at all (even if in the end you click 'cancel') potentially causes settings (maybe hidden ones I can't adjust, for instance the MultEQ) to get blown away.

So, for now, I set the sub level to -5dB (split the difference). But I definitely wanted to get some guidance and see what people think.

Thanks,

Chris


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post #29628 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes, it probably says more about the amp, speaker efficiencies and distances than anything else. I only jumped in because words can be misunderstood if not precise. Not that yours were imprecise.

Me thinks our systems become balanced when Audyssey takes care of it. Whatever "weird" looking trims come up "IT IS DA BALANCE". Ain't that why we love Audyssey?
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post #29629 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

Thanks. What if the I have 2 subs & they are at unequal distances, do I enter the distance of the closest sub?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinodk View Post

In general if you have 2 subs at two different distances do you enter the distance of the closest sub in the distance setup menu?



Before setting up Audyssey in the receiver/processor, you should balance the subs level-wise at the main listening position/first mic position. Ideally, they would also be equal distances from that position. Irregardless, I would just focus on getting them the same volume at that first position and then let the setup process set the distance.
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post #29630 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

Me thinks our systems become balanced when Audyssey takes care of it. Whatever "weird" looking trims come up "IT IS DA BALANCE". Ain't that why we love Audyssey?

Yo, Feri from da hood!
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post #29631 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post

The subwoofer level is the primary concern.

Hi Chris,
It sounds like the first run was the outlier. Perhaps some low frequency noise made the mic think there was more low frequency and Audyssey set the level to -1. From the two subsequent runs, it would appear that -9 is the right level to bring your sub to reference and match the other speakers.

SACDs are not the right way to judge the bass because they are not necessarily authored in calibrated environments. I would suggest movies. Also, keep in mind that Audyssey is setting for reference level. If your personal preference is for a little more bass then, by all means, turn up the trim as you have done.

Do you have Dynamic EQ enabled? If you are listening with the master volume below 0 dB, Dynamic EQ will make up for the change in perceived bass levels due to human perception.

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post #29632 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 01:59 PM
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Wow thanks for the fast response!

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Chris,
It sounds like the first run was the outlier. Perhaps some low frequency noise made the mic think there was more low frequency and Audyssey set the level to -1. From the two subsequent runs, it would appear that -9 is the right level to bring your sub to reference and match the other speakers.

I've done some more reading since I did the calibration, and I may re-do it. I used a tripod initially, but I do also own a mic boom arm, so I should probably pull it out of the basement and use it. I'll be curious to see what I get when using the boom arm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

SACDs are not the right way to judge the bass because they are not necessarily authored in calibrated environments. I would suggest movies. Also, keep in mind that Audyssey is setting for reference level. If your personal preference is for a little more bass then, by all means, turn up the trim as you have done.

Good to know about not using SACDs as the litmus test. Is there a commonly owned movie (and even a specific scene in said movie) that many people use? I tried Avatar, Transformers 2 and a couple others...but of course I don't know what the appropriate level of bass coming from these movies "should" be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Do you have Dynamic EQ enabled? If you are listening with the master volume below 0 dB, Dynamic EQ will make up for the change in perceived bass levels due to human perception.

Now THAT is something I didn't try. I was listening around -7dB on the Onkyo, and I'm pretty sure Dynamic EQ was not enabled. I will give that a go as well.

Thanks so much,

Chris


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post #29633 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by fatherom View Post

I've done some more reading since I did the calibration, and I may re-do it. I used a tripod initially, but I do also own a mic boom arm, so I should probably pull it out of the basement and use it. I'll be curious to see what I get when using the boom arm.

Also, take a look here for recommended mic placement and here for subwoofer setup tips before running MultEQ.

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post #29634 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Also, take a look here for recommended mic placement and here for subwoofer setup tips before running MultEQ.

Yep, I followed the guidelines there as well as the ones in the word doc setup guide from this thread.

So, I just finished another runthrough of the Audyssey setup, this time using a boom arm mic stand.

My subwoofer level didn't change much (-9dB before, -8.5dB now). I'll try some more movies and see how the LFE sounds.

Strangely though, during my initial passes (using the tripod) I was getting a subwoofer distance of around 11 feet, which is pretty spot on to the actual physical distance in the room. When using the boom arm (which admittedly has a very heavy and large base on it), I got a subwoofer distance of 8.5 feet. As the guide mentions, lower than actual distances usually point to a tripod as the culprit...surprised I got this when using the boom arm mic stand.

Can I safely set the subwoofer distance back to 11 feet without having to worry about Audyssey losing its magic?

Thanks again so much for your help,

Chris


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post #29635 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 02:45 PM
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Hello

I think I have seen in various places suggestions to do with input trims for certain sources (such as certain types of music sources being set to -10db when using dynamic EQ for example).

What I've yet to find, is suggested input trims for the xBox 360, and whether or not it's even possible to have dynamic EQ working properly with it. I'm currently using a DIY effort sub which so far can take everything film-wise that I've thrown at it, yet games like Tiger Woods PGA tour and (especially the opening explosion scene of) Mass Effect 2 make it sound like my sub is ripping itself apart.

I'm going to make the (probably incorrect) assumption that for Blu Ray movies, the PS3 shouldn't need any input trim adjustment to work correctly, but the bass on the xbox sounds like it's being boosted to ridiculous levels.
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post #29636 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackle View Post


I'm going to make the (probably incorrect) assumption that for Blu Ray movies, the PS3 shouldn't need any input trim adjustment to work correctly, but the bass on the xbox sounds like it's being boosted to ridiculous levels.

Dynamic EQ assumes that the content is mixed at film reference. Because music is sometimes not mixed at film reference, we introduced three reference level offsets for Dynamic EQ. I'm sure that one of them will work for games. There is no known mix standard for games so you may have to experiment. I would start with turning down the input level (or the Dynamic EQ reference offset) by 10 dB.

A further complication comes from adding the required 10 dB boost to the LFE channel in two places. Normally, this should be done in the AVR. But, we have seen cases where it's also done in the BD player. Amazingly, a well-known national television network also had this double LFE boost problem because of an incorrect setting in their boxes! It was fixed recently when Tom Holman from Audyssey pointed it out... I don't know the specifics of xbox bass management, but you may want to turn down the LFE level (note this is not the same as the subwoofer trim level) to -10 dB from the default value of 0 in the AVR.

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post #29637 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Dynamic EQ assumes that the content is mixed at film reference. Because music is sometimes not mixed at film reference, we introduced three reference level offsets for Dynamic EQ. I'm sure that one of them will work for games. There is no known mix standard for games so you may have to experiment. I would start with turning down the input level (or the Dynamic EQ reference offset) by 10 dB.

A further complication comes from adding the required 10 dB boost to the LFE channel in two places. Normally, this should be done in the AVR. But, we have seen cases where it's also done in the BD player. Amazingly, a well-known national television network also had this double LFE boost problem because of an incorrect setting in their boxes! It was fixed recently when Tom Holman from Audyssey pointed it out... I don't know the specifics of xbox bass management, but you may want to turn down the LFE level (note this is not the same as the subwoofer trim level) to -10 dB from the default value of 0 in the AVR.

Thanks Chris

Interesting reading, but I have two problems with this, both revolve around an old obsolete Onkyo 906 being my AVR - first the LFE level isn't selectable by individual source, but by codec, and since my Sky HD box that I watch TV on uses Dolby Digital like my xBox 360, if I cut the LFE channel on this by -10dB then this will also affect when I'm watching TV too, and the volume levels for Sky HD are very low and probably need the input trim raising a little. And secondly I don't think the 906 has an option to pick which Audyssey offset DynamicEQ is using.

Very interesting hearing about the double 10db boost on that TV network, hehe Thinking about it, as I have an old "fat" PS3 using LPCM to my 906, I have no clue if there is any double LFE boosting going on with that either, it does sound perfectly fine with Blu Rays though.
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post #29638 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 03:54 PM
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I've just realised that by DynamicEQ offset on my 906 it means setting IntelliVolime to either -5, -10, or -12dB, d'oh!
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post #29639 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Here are the graphs Chris...






these are the left surround





Chris...just to clarify, the after graph shows the speaker being down more db at 80 hz than the before graph....and that is because Audyssey found the 3 db down point as 100 hz and only applied correction to 100 hz and up....not because Audyssey actually lowered my output at 80 hz....correct?

BTW...not only is Audyssey the single best HT product I have ever come across in terms of performance gain....but the fact that you actually spend time answering questions (many of them repetitive ones) is the highest level of customer service I have ever been exposed too. Cheers to an amazing product and equally amazing service!
I ask this question in the context of choosing an 80 hz crossover for the left surround even if 100 hz is recommended. I just want to be sure that Audyssey is not cutting db at 80 hz.
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post #29640 of 71843 Old 08-14-2010, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


Me thinks our systems become balanced when Audyssey takes care of it. Whatever "weird" looking trims come up "IT IS DA BALANCE". Ain't that why we love Audyssey?

I'm not sure it's that simple. I think I convinced myself that a left-right asymmetric system suffers from inequal time smearing (the technical term would be modal ringing, I guess), which should shift the image increasingly to the higher-trimmed side at higher frequencies. By doing room-acoustics treatment prior to Audyssey to regain left-right symmetry of the trim levels, i.e., by lowering the time smearing to comparable levels, you would get increased clarity and better imaging in a way Audyssey can not do. No?
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