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#1 ·

I've been in several threads lately where the topic has been all about Audyssey and I've noted that there's not actually a thread specifically for it. There's one that seems to be about it, but it's titled as being about the Denon 3806. Audyssey, of course, exists in far more receivers than the 3806 nowadays, so I thought I'd throw a starter into the pool to see if people were interested in having one thread to discuss all Audyssey issues/comments/questions/stories/impressions that they've come up with from their personal receiver-experiences.


Myself, i was quite anti-Audyssey when I first came across it. My ears were quite used to what they'd had before which was very bass & treble heavy. Time has passed and I've really come to understand the strengths of Audyssey and respect the clean, flat signal that I now love and enjoy (and couldn't imagine being without). I'd love to hear from anyone else that wants to chime in or discuss issues.


Basic starter-links:


The Audyssey homepage .


The types of Audyssey implimentations in different receivers.



The Audyssey FAQ


The Audyssey setup guide


====

Audyssey tips:

Microphone Placement


The microphone has been calibrated for grazing incidence and so it must point to the ceiling during calibration. Any other orientation will produce incorrect results.


The microphone response has been calibrated to match (on average) the response of an industry-standard ¼ instrumentation microphone. It is critical to use the microphone that came with the receiver and not one from another model that may have a different calibration curve.


It is also important to place the microphone on a tripod or other stand so that it is at ear height. We strongly recommend against holding the microphone in your hand because this can give rise to low frequency handling noise that will cause the MultEQ filters to compensate by cutting those frequencies. Furthermore, it is not recommended to place the microphone on the back of the couch or recliner. If a tripod is used, care must be taken to ensure that the microphone is placed at a height just above the seat back so that reflections from the seat do not cause problems at higher frequencies.


The first microphone position is used to calculate the distances to each loudspeaker and subwoofer and set the delays. It is also used to measure and set the trims. So, it is important to place the microphone in the main listening seat for the first measurement.


MultEQ measures the background noise level in the room before playing the test signal from each speaker. For the measurements to be valid, the signal to noise ratio must be above a certain threshold. If it is not, the test signal from that speaker will repeat at a higher level. If the noise in the room happens to be higher during some of the speaker measurements, then the test signals from those speakers will sound louder than the test signals from the other speakers. This does not affect the calculation of trim levels. If the room noise is too high even after the test signals increase in level, then an error message will be displayed warning the user that measurements can not be completed.


After the first position is measured, MultEQ measures other positions in the room around the listening area. These do not necessarily have to be in each individual seat. The idea is to capture as many points around the listening area as possible so that the acoustical problems that affect the quality of sound within that area are minimized.


For example, we recommend taking 3 positions on the couch facing the TV and then 3 more positions about 3 feet in front of the couch and parallel to the first three. Measurements up against the back or side walls should be avoided.


Some loudspeakers have rather problematic responses when measured off-axis (i.e. more than 15° away from the imaginary straight line that points to the listening position). In these systems, measurements taken too far away from the center line will show a reduced high-frequency response that may result in overcorrection and thus overly bright sound. Although it is difficult to predict which type of loudspeaker will have these off-axis problems we have most often observed them in poorly-designed multiple-driver arrays that exhibit very high off-axis lobing. In these situations we recommend a tighter calibration pattern centered around the main listening position and making sure that the mic is not placed in extreme locations and certainly not outside the plane of the front main speakers.

Checking the Results


Once MultEQ calibration is complete the results are stored in the receiver memory.


It is important to activate MultEQ by selecting one of the target curves. This is not performed by default after the calibration is finished and must be selected by the user. In a THX system we recommend using the Flat setting that allows the re-equalization to work as intended. In other systems, we recommend Audyssey for movie playback and Flat for music playback. Unfortunately, the music industry does not have any mixing standards like the movie industry so some music program material may sound better with the Audyssey setting. Front Align also uses the Audyssey process, but it does not apply the filters to the two front loudspeakers. Manual is not an Audyssey setting and does not use MultEQ filters. It is a simple parametric equalizer and will be subject to all the limitations that come with parametric EQ.


Small vs. Large speakers. This is the most commonly discussed topic by MultEQ users. The first thing to understand is that it is not a personal insult to your system if your speakers were detected as Small. It simply means, that in the room they were measured the - 3 dB point was detected at 80 Hz or above. This may happen even if the manufacturer's spec shows that the speaker is capable of playing lower. In fact, there are several benefits at crossing the speakers over at 80 Hz that have to do with power handling and headroom in the bass region that will be handled by the subwoofer amplifier.


The second most common question also relates to Small vs. Large. In the Denon receivers, MultEQ will designate as Large any speaker that has a -3 dB point below 80 Hz. For non-THX speaker systems this is an arbitrary definition that often causes confusion. All it means is that the speaker will not be bass managed unless the user tells it to be. Because Audyssey is not in charge of bass management, we have to abide by the manufacturers' rules and simply report the information found by the measurements to the bass management system.


In situations where the speakers do not play significantly below 80 Hz, an additional step must be taken to make sure that there is no loss of bass information. The user must set the speaker to Small manually so that bass management is performed properly.


Polarity: MultEQ checks the absolute polarity of each loudspeaker and reports it to the user. This is simply a report and does not affect the subsequent calculations in any way. It just asks you to check the wiring to make sure it is connected properly to each speaker. Sometimes we get false alarms. This is usually because the speaker has a driver (usually the mid-range driver) wired out-of-phase intentionally to make up for some problems at the crossover region. If a phase warning is shown, it is not a cause of alarm. Simply check the cables and hit Skip if everything is fine. Again, this does not have any effect on the EQ results.


Subwoofer distance: in many active subwoofers it is not possible to defeat the low-pass filtering. That means that the pre-pro bass management filters will be on top of the low-pass filters inside the subwoofer. The built-in low-filters introduce a delay to the signal coming in (because they have poles). This delay is seen by MultEQ as acoustical delay and is reported in the results. That is why sometimes the subwoofer distance is reported to be longer than the physical measured distance. The setting should not be changed because the blend between the sub and the satellites has been designed based on this time delay.


The design constraints for MultEQ were that it (1) must fit within a small portion of the DSP so that other processes can also run and (2) it must use FIR filters because of the well-known artifacts that IIR filters cause particularly in the time domain response. As it turns out, these two requirements are contradicting. In order for FIR filters to be effective and capable of correcting to low frequencies, they must consist of several thousand coefficients (taps). The problem is that the CPU power required increases with the number of taps, hence the dilemma. What we did at Audyssey was to come up with a different way to partition the frequency axis so that we can use fewer taps and yet not completely give up on low frequency resolution (and therefore low frequency correction). This allows us to take a 512 tap filter that would normally have a resolution of 94 Hz (meaning that any peak or dip narrower than 94 Hz would be missed) and significantly improve its resolving power. The resolution of the filter actually varies continuously with frequency and starts at around 10 Hz. Does this mean that MultEQ can correct an arbitrarily narrow peak or dip at 30 Hz? Of course not. The reality is that in the MultEQ XT version found in receivers, we can correct broader features below 100 Hz better than narrow ones. For example, a lump that is half an octave wide at 50 Hz can be fixed. A narrow dip or peak that is 1/3 or 1/6 octaves wide and centered at 30 Hz will be improved, but not eliminated.


The on-screen display in the receiver has very limited graphics. Therefore it is not possible to really show what the MultEQ correction filter is doing at all frequencies. It appears to only be operating on 9 bands like a parametric equalizer, but this is not the case. What is shown is a very crude approximation to the MultEQ correction and it should not be used to read exact values of cut or boost at the 9 frequencies shown.


Furthermore, there is no display for the subwoofer filter. This doesn't mean that there is no subwoofer correction. It was not added to the display because of interface and memory considerations.


(tips by Chris, CTO, Audyssey Laboratories)
 
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#79,361 ·
Is there any list of compatible mics?

I know the AVR's are tuned to the mics, but my Denon Audyssey mic was just discovered to be crushed by a kid's stacking job. (note to kid: little light things go on top of heavy things, not the other way)

I have a slew of of calibration mics from over the years hope something is compatible. I know there are several models of the Denon tower mic, and I'm not sure if I can only replace with another dm-a409 or with something else work? I'm betting other non-audyssey mics won't work, but what about other audyssey mics even from different manufacturers?
I just don't want to go buy another if something else will do!
 
#79,362 ·
Is there any list of compatible mics?

I know the AVR's are tuned to the mics, but my Denon Audyssey mic was just discovered to be crushed by a kid's stacking job. (note to kid: little light things go on top of heavy things, not the other way)

I have a slew of of calibration mics from over the years hope something is compatible. I know there are several models of the Denon tower mic, and I'm not sure if I can only replace with another dm-a409 or with something else work? I'm betting other non-audyssey mics won't work, but what about other audyssey mics even from different manufacturers?
I just don't want to go buy another if something else will do!
Hi Jeff,

According to the trusty FAQ, which always manages to stay one step ahead, :rolleyes: the ACM1H is compatible with the DM-A409, so if you have one of those it should be fine. The ACM1H has been used by everyone since mid-2012, and either the silver or black tower is interchangeable. (I think the black one is designated as ACM1H-B.)

Regards,
Mike
 
#79,364 ·
Thanks Mike, I got intimidated by the long thread and forgot to check the FAQ!
Time to look through my supply.

You are very welcome! Trying to search the thread is no picnic.
 
#79,366 ·
New ELAC B5s for the L/R and new SVS Prime Satellites for the surrounds to replace my HTD setup......... Audyssey XT is like a zombie for me, just can't kill it. Review to come after I get this stupid smile off of my face from the B5s - but that might be a few days/weeks.:cool:

Hey, congratulations! :)

I have wondered a few times recently if you would ever consider getting rid of your bi-poles, considering the fact that you have had so much trouble getting them to play nicely with Audyssey. But it certainly wasn't my place to suggest it.

I have heard good things about the ELAC speakers, but don't know much about them. I will look forward to your impressions. FWIW, I have heard that excessive smiling can interfere with normal psycho-acoustic responses. :p
 
#79,367 ·
New ELAC B5s for the L/R and new SVS Prime Satellites for the surrounds to replace my HTD setup......... Audyssey XT is like a zombie for me, just can't kill it. Review to come after I get this stupid smile off of my face from the B5s - but that might be a few days/weeks.:cool:
Congrats D Bone on your new speakers. How about doing yourself a favor by forgetting about Audyssey for the time being and setting up your new speakers while concentrating on best placement, best toe-in/ toe-out, best height to face seated ear height, and all that jazz, e.g. ELAC B5s are rear ported so you may need to consider proper distances from front wall with a little experimenting. And when you have a relatively pleasing sound in your room you can run MultEQ XT as the icing on the cake. Don't be in a hurry, take your time, it'll pay off I'm sure.

Take care! :)
 
#79,368 ·
Thanks guys :) I'm not going to oversell it, but I took my time and placed everything correctly. I also removed my AntiMode too.:eek: I was surprised at how much difference just a little change to the toe-in had on the B5s.

At first I had them toed-in directly at me and liked the sound without EQ, but I went ahead and did some serious testing in direct mode (full range/no sub) and I ended up liking them the most with them pointing about an arms length off the center of my mlp spot..... Who woulda thunk?

I then did the same thing with the SVS surrounds in multi channel stereo mode, and although I didn't have a single "a-ha" moment at any toe in position, I did settle on a position that sounded best.......... My sub location is my sub location - end of story on that.

I ran a quick down and dirty 3pt calibration just to check the new speaker trims and distances and documented them for future use. Then I reset the entire AVR (OCD thing) and ran a real calibration.

The results surprised me, in that when I now turn off XT there is not the usual (to me) "night and day difference" between off and reference. Of course with XT enabled on reference setting, my sub sounded better and didn't dominate the room with one loud note, and my near corner mounted surrounds lost their bloat as well, however there wasn't an enormous change to the B5s, but there was some differences........

The change that was there in the B5s with XT was a little mid bass/lower midrange (standard/manly male voice) "bloat". XT seemed to add something that made them sound a little thick and muddy......... I choose on purpose to run without a center speaker so my L/Rs produce all of my dialog and it's easy to hear anything good or bad in that critical region. All is not lost however, as I am currently enjoying L/R Bypass as I type this, and my B5s sound as if they were designed by someone who knew what they were doing.;)

My surrounds sound perfect. What can I say? Not a hint of harshness, brightness, ect.. like there was with my bi-pole HTDs. I took a picture of the EQ settings graph (crude I know, but it's better than nothing) for the HTDs before I removed them, and it showed from 10k on up there was a 10+db boost. However on my SVS Primes, there is very little boosting at all, with the majority of the EQing being trimming the bloat in the 250-500 range from being mounted near a corner......... That's it! Just by looking at the two EQ graphs it's easy to see what I was hearing with the HTD bi-poles....... I think they were boosted so much that the tweeters (4 total) were just distorting like crazy and that's what I was hearing?

Anyway, this is where I sit tonight and I can't believe the overall sound I got for the dollar spent. I'll update once I get more time on them and see where I ultimately end up, but right now I'm a pretty happy dude.:cool:
 
#79,369 ·
I've got a question for you guys, does room EQ make speakers "sound the same"? What I mean by that is if you had 5 identical rooms set up with 5 different manufactures' speakers all set up identically, does Audyssey/YPAO/MCACC/ect.. end up making all 5 of those speakers systems sound the "same"? Would they now all sound the way Audyssey/YPAO/MCACC/ect wanted them to sound based on their design?

I guess another way to ask this is if Andrew Jones sat down in a room that was auto EQd to listen to his speakers, would he be like "these aren't my speakers, they sound nothing like what I intended"?

What say you all?
This is an interesting question and was used to argument against the use of room correction systems since a long time. But, as it was already stated in other answers, this is not the case. I just would like to add my own experiences: After making an Audyssey measurement you can clearly still recognize the characteristics of the individual speaker system. The reason why, was already answered in another answer.
I know one guy, publishing tests of home cinema equipment and he was strongly against the use of room EQ systems. Since XT32 was out he changed his opinion a bit and since he used Dirac with a Datasat RS20i, he completely changed his mind.
In my opinion it is not worth to start flame wars about the use of room EQ systems or not. My recommendation is that you should gain your own opinion, by extensive listening tests in your environment. Because every environment and set up is different, I personally do not feel to be in the position to tell anybody what is good or bad. What is good in my case, might not achieve the best results in another environment. The only thing that counts - in my opinion - is the result in your own environment. However, it is good to get the opinion of others and learn form their experience.

Just my 2 cents...
 
#79,370 ·
That will work fine. I think that is exactly what most of us do to establish the trim levels for our subs, before running the full 8-point calibration.
I realize that after adding second sub in the mix my original observation on where to start the volume on the subwoofer is way off.
I recently added second sub and the Y at the distal connection ( close to the subwoofer) was giving log of issues ( Monster Y, one female to two male), i had no output from the second Male connection and which ever sub i connected there was silenence ? Strange, so i switched my config to running Line out of the 1st sub into LFE in to the second sub, this is working fine, i may have had a bad Y , never tried second Y, also the distance from receiver to 1st sub is apx 25 feet, 1st sub to 2nd sub is about 10 feet.
Now when i run Audyssy, i have to turn up my sub substiantially to get to final negative trip around -8-9, this may be normal but now my sub volume are set bit heigher then midpoint, but when i had one sub , i set it close to 3 ( very low to get -9).
Any thoughts on that, Length of the cable to 1st sub ( SVS PB1000) is the same, second sub ( infinity 12 ) is daisy chained to SVS.
I have not tried runnign new and another long ( 40 feet) cable from second sub out to second sub, this remains a option but i would like to avoid it.
 
#79,371 ·
I realize that after adding second sub in the mix my original observation on where to start the volume on the subwoofer is way off.
I recently added second sub and the Y at the distal connection ( close to the subwoofer) was giving log of issues ( Monster Y, one female to two male), i had no output from the second Male connection and which ever sub i connected there was silenence ? Strange, so i switched my config to running Line out of the 1st sub into LFE in to the second sub, this is working fine, i may have had a bad Y , never tried second Y, also the distance from receiver to 1st sub is apx 25 feet, 1st sub to 2nd sub is about 10 feet.
Now when i run Audyssy, i have to turn up my sub substiantially to get to final negative trip around -8-9, this may be normal but now my sub volume are set bit heigher then midpoint, but when i had one sub , i set it close to 3 ( very low to get -9).
Any thoughts on that, Length of the cable to 1st sub ( SVS PB1000) is the same, second sub ( infinity 12 ) is daisy chained to SVS.
I have not tried runnign new and another long ( 40 feet) cable from second sub out to second sub, this remains a option but i would like to avoid it.
Your second sub is cancelling out your first sub (or vice-versa). When adding the second sub, you should be seeing a (roughly) 5-6dB increase in SPL. Do you have an SPL meter??

To remedy this cancellation, you need to get the subs time-aligned (or "in-phase"). This can be done, albeit crudely, with the phase control on the subs.

If your sub has a simple 0/180 switch, try flipping it on ONE sub...does the combined output increase? If so, leave that sub with the phase inverted.

The proper way to do it is to time-align the subs with Audyssey XT32+SubEQ HT, or some sort of outboard box like a MiniDSP.
 
#79,372 ·
I realize that after adding second sub in the mix my original observation on where to start the volume on the subwoofer is way off.
I recently added second sub and the Y at the distal connection ( close to the subwoofer) was giving log of issues ( Monster Y, one female to two male), i had no output from the second Male connection and which ever sub i connected there was silenence ? Strange, so i switched my config to running Line out of the 1st sub into LFE in to the second sub, this is working fine, i may have had a bad Y , never tried second Y, also the distance from receiver to 1st sub is apx 25 feet, 1st sub to 2nd sub is about 10 feet.
Now when i run Audyssy, i have to turn up my sub substiantially to get to final negative trip around -8-9, this may be normal but now my sub volume are set bit heigher then midpoint, but when i had one sub , i set it close to 3 ( very low to get -9).
Any thoughts on that, Length of the cable to 1st sub ( SVS PB1000) is the same, second sub ( infinity 12 ) is daisy chained to SVS.
I have not tried runnign new and another long ( 40 feet) cable from second sub out to second sub, this remains a option but i would like to avoid it.

Hi,

I am not exactly sure that I understand the problem here. Alan gave you an answer based on the assumption that you don't have XT-32 with SubEQ. I went back to read your original posts, and for some reason, I was assuming that you do have it. What you may be describing is simply a gain control issue, where your new PB-1000 requires a higher gain setting than you are used to using with your older sub. If so, simply turning up the gain control on the PB, is the correct procedure and does no harm at all. The gain controls are logarithmic, so they can go from just barely loud enough, to too loud very quickly, as you adjust them upward. FWIW, most SVS users, with the Sledge amps, report using fairly high gain numbers. Again, that in itself is no problem at all.

If I have misunderstood what you are saying, please explain the issue again.

Regards,
Mike
 
#79,373 ·
Hi,

I am not exactly sure that I understand the problem here. Alan gave you an answer based on the assumption that you don't have XT-32 with SubEQ. I went back to read your original posts, and for some reason, I was assuming that you do have it. What you may be describing is simply a gain control issue, where your new PB-1000 requires a higher gain setting than you are used to using with your older sub. If so, simply turning up the gain control on the PB, is the correct procedure and does no harm at all. The gain controls are logarithmic, so they can go from just barely loud enough, to too loud very quickly, as you adjust them upward. FWIW, most SVS users, with the Sledge amps, report using fairly high gain numbers. Again, that in itself is no problem at all.

If I have misunderstood what you are saying, please explain the issue again.

Regards,
Mike
Well, if he does have XT32 he kind of nullified the SubEQ HT by daisy-chaining his subs. ;)
 
#79,374 ·
Well, if he does have XT32 he kind of nullified the SubEQ HT by daisy-chaining his subs. ;)

I think you are right, Alan. I must be a little tired, but reading his post again, I agree with your first post. :eek:
 
#79,375 ·
I think you are right, Alan. I must be a little tired, but reading his post again, I agree with your first post. :eek:
There is no problem, just describing the setup that it requires complete rethink of having one sub vs two and i will be turning the volume gain up a bit more to get the output i need, its more of an observation for anyone who goes through similar setup, i do not have Audessy SUBEQ HT so wiring two sub separately does not apply to me.
Its post is only for awareness purpose, this is the first time i have SVS sub so what you say regarding volume control is what i am encountering.
No worries, i am good to go.
 
#79,376 ·
Your second sub is cancelling out your first sub (or vice-versa). When adding the second sub, you should be seeing a (roughly) 5-6dB increase in SPL. Do you have an SPL meter??

To remedy this cancellation, you need to get the subs time-aligned (or "in-phase"). This can be done, albeit crudely, with the phase control on the subs.

If your sub has a simple 0/180 switch, try flipping it on ONE sub...does the combined output increase? If so, leave that sub with the phase inverted.

The proper way to do it is to time-align the subs with Audyssey XT32+SubEQ HT, or some sort of outboard box like a MiniDSP.
Alan,
Both Sub are set to Phase Zero and i have not tried to change the phase yet , this is something i can try soon, thanks for the TIP, i do have log SPL but when i generate the test tone for some reason the speakers ( satellites ) read around 60+ ( and i hear the tone) with it but the when i get to the subwoofer part it does not seems to generate output ( below 40) so not sure whats up with the Test tone or if i am doing it wrong.
My process is go to speakers>generate test tone and then select speakers. ( i know i did not have such an problem with my HK receiver ), sub woofers are on and powered when i conduct this test.
I do have logSPL on my iphone, which is what i use.
I have attempted to do test tones with subs a few times but just to reconfirm i will do it again.
 
#79,377 ·
Alan,
Both Sub are set to Phase Zero and i have not tried to change the phase yet , this is something i can try soon, thanks for the TIP, i do have log SPL but when i generate the test tone for some reason the speakers ( satellites ) read around 60+ ( and i hear the tone) with it but the when i get to the subwoofer part it does not seems to generate output ( below 40) so not sure whats up with the Test tone or if i am doing it wrong.
My process is go to speakers>generate test tone and then select speakers. ( i know i did not have such an problem with my HK receiver ), sub woofers are on and powered when i conduct this test.
I do have logSPL on my iphone, which is what i use.
I have attempted to do test tones with subs a few times but just to reconfirm i will do it again.
If it's a newer Denon, make sure your master volume is turned up to "0db" when checking the speaker trims.
 
#79,378 ·
There is no problem, just describing the setup that it requires complete rethink of having one sub vs two and i will be turning the volume gain up a bit more to get the output i need, its more of an observation for anyone who goes through similar setup, i do not have Audessy SUBEQ HT so wiring two sub separately does not apply to me.
Its post is only for awareness purpose, this is the first time i have SVS sub so what you say regarding volume control is what i am encountering.
No worries, i am good to go.


Okay, good! FWIW, I did have a bad Y-connector once which I had to replace. Sometimes even the cheap Radio Shack connectors will work fine, where the more expensive ones might not. I don't know how good the quality control is on some of them, regardless of brand.
 
#79,379 ·
Alan,
Both Sub are set to Phase Zero and i have not tried to change the phase yet , this is something i can try soon, thanks for the TIP, i do have log SPL but when i generate the test tone for some reason the speakers ( satellites ) read around 60+ ( and i hear the tone) with it but the when i get to the subwoofer part it does not seems to generate output ( below 40) so not sure whats up with the Test tone or if i am doing it wrong.
My process is go to speakers>generate test tone and then select speakers. ( i know i did not have such an problem with my HK receiver ), sub woofers are on and powered when i conduct this test.
I do have logSPL on my iphone, which is what i use.
I have attempted to do test tones with subs a few times but just to reconfirm i will do it again.
I have never used an SPL app on a phone so I can't really comment on their accuracy. However, I can tell you that a proper SPL meter (or even better, REW+calibrated mic) would probably be more accurate than the tiny little mic on a phone.

Do you have the SPL app set to "C" weighting and "Slow" response (if it has those settings)?
 
#79,380 ·
I have never used an SPL app on a phone so I can't really comment on their accuracy. However, I can tell you that a proper SPL meter (or even better, REW+calibrated mic) would probably be more accurate than the tiny little mic on a phone.

Do you have the SPL app set to "C" weighting and "Slow" response (if it has those settings)?
I will check on it, from what i read logSPL was thought to be more accurate and it does read well for the trims on Satellites, just when i get to sub there seems to be no output but the subs are working fine and no issues with that, i will check the volume first on AVR before trying out the test tones again.
Just checking the log SPL now and i can easily switch to Slow and C weighted so i will leave it there.
 
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