Pioneer Elite VSX-90TXV, VSX-91TXH, VSX-92TXH, VSX-94TXH - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 02:03 PM
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Well I got a chance to check out my 91 more yesterday. I still have some more tweaking to do, mainly fixing my front speakers to small from large, since for some reason, the MCACC detects them as large, when they're clearly not. Hope to figure out how to fix that tonight or tomorrow, but even with it not fully configured yet, its still simply amazing how much of an upgrade it is over my old receiver! I popped in for my first movie, Kung Fu Hustle, and the last fight was so clear and detailed compared to the DD track from the old DVD, that is simply was astounding. I didn't realize how much of a difference PCM was over DD, been reading about it, but wow. Second, and I only had a few minutes with it, I popped in Casino Royale, and OH MY GOODNESS! The first scene leading to the gun/credits was simply amazing coming from this. I know this is mainly about receivers, but wow, I am completely glad with this receiver. I still have tweaking to do on the settings, but even as is, it's night and day from my old one. There's also no LFE issues on it either, as the complaints from the people from the other room feeling it shake all around have told me lol. Hope to have it fully tweaked by the end of the week. Now I'm tempted to look and see how my PS3 can handle SACD's since I've never heard some before.

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post #272 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 02:20 PM
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i think im gonna take my 805 back to CC and get a 92 once they hit magnolia ina few weeks. although the neural thx and true hd are real nice on the 805 there are some issues with it that frustrate me .

first off the upscaler is useless as it puts bars on eithor side of the picture and im having issues connecting my DTV thru HDMI to the 805.

i hope they come in soon cause im almost tempted to scoop one of the 91's i saw today in BB. there are a couple deal breakers with that model like lower grade upscale and 2 HDMI's inputs.

also the lack of neural thx really hurts the 90/91 IMO . after listening it on my 805 i was really wowed and would definitely want in on anything i bought.
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post #273 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 02:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

If they truly dropped DSD in the 94 there won't be much choice in the U.S. Denon or Onkyo, Denon's UIs are notoriously bad. Strange thing about the Onkyo is you have to read the manual to see that it supports DSD, it isn't in the fact sheet, maybe the same applies to the Pioneer. The Onkyo still has good capacitors, proper shielding and a nice big transformer (missing since the 74 in the Pioneer line). On paper it should be better, real world remains to be seen. It also costs quite a bit more (2099 versus 1599 or there abouts for the Pioneer) but I would rather pay for quality within reason.

Denon completely redid their GUI. Heres a picture of it
LL
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post #274 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by MrB84 View Post

Well I got a chance to check out my 91 more yesterday. I still have some more tweaking to do, mainly fixing my front speakers to small from large, since for some reason, the MCACC detects them as large, when they're clearly not. Hope to figure out how to fix that tonight or tomorrow, but even with it not fully configured yet, its still simply amazing how much of an upgrade it is over my old receiver! I popped in for my first movie, Kung Fu Hustle, and the last fight was so clear and detailed compared to the DD track from the old DVD, that is simply was astounding. I didn't realize how much of a difference PCM was over DD, been reading about it, but wow. Second, and I only had a few minutes with it, I popped in Casino Royale, and OH MY GOODNESS! The first scene leading to the gun/credits was simply amazing coming from this. I know this is mainly about receivers, but wow, I am completely glad with this receiver. I still have tweaking to do on the settings, but even as is, it's night and day from my old one. There's also no LFE issues on it either, as the complaints from the people from the other room feeling it shake all around have told me lol. Hope to have it fully tweaked by the end of the week. Now I'm tempted to look and see how my PS3 can handle SACD's since I've never heard some before.

did you listen to any music on it? how much does it weigh, and does it have a removable power cord? thanks
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post #275 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rommy View Post

did you listen to any music on it? how much does it weigh, and does it have a removable power cord? thanks

Haven't done any music yet, but when I do, I'll post.
It weighs 40 pounds
And the power cord is not removable.

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post #276 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 06:01 PM
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Ok, I have tried my HD A2 HDDVD with The Departed set to True HD, and it will only display PCM or PCM 96hz on the Pioneer 91. I tried the setups in both the HD player and the DVD under PCM and bitstream - anyone have any ideas? Maybe the DVD player needs an update?

On the PS3, I don't have any discs with the new sound formats - and I don't want to have to buy Ghost Rider to test it out. I'll wait until 300 comes out in a few weeks to test that one out for True HD.

Still like the reciever, but I may trade up to the 92 or 94 for the extra HDMI in and better video upconversion if Best Buy lets me.
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post #277 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanjr View Post

Ok, I have tried my HD A2 HDDVD with The Departed set to True HD, and it will only display PCM or PCM 96hz on the Pioneer 91. I tried the setups in both the HD player and the DVD under PCM and bitstream - anyone have any ideas? Maybe the DVD player needs an update?

On the PS3, I don't have any discs with the new sound formats - and I don't want to have to buy Ghost Rider to test it out. I'll wait until 300 comes out in a few weeks to test that one out for True HD.

Still like the reciever, but I may trade up to the 92 or 94 for the extra HDMI in and better video upconversion if Best Buy lets me.

That is because the HD or BD player is doing the decoding and sending PCM, just like it is supposed to. None of the current players pass the bitstream to allow the receiver to do the decoding.
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post #278 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 06:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanjr View Post

Ok, I have tried my HD A2 HDDVD with The Departed set to True HD, and it will only display PCM or PCM 96hz on the Pioneer 91. I tried the setups in both the HD player and the DVD under PCM and bitstream - anyone have any ideas? Maybe the DVD player needs an update?

On the PS3, I don't have any discs with the new sound formats - and I don't want to have to buy Ghost Rider to test it out. I'll wait until 300 comes out in a few weeks to test that one out for True HD.

Still like the reciever, but I may trade up to the 92 or 94 for the extra HDMI in and better video upconversion if Best Buy lets me.

So, kanjr, how does the 91 do with PCM output over HDMI? Is the LFE channel handled correctly? (Sure hope Pio has got this right this time!)
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post #279 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 07:24 PM
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Well:
I'm the original owner of a 45TX which I have loved as a receiver. I've been watching he Pioneers now for 5 years and the only one so far that would best my 45 TX for the money IMHO was the 56TXi.

Now, though I'm too far behind the times and I'll be comparing the 3808 vs the 94.

I really hope the Pio wins cause I have been an Elite Freak and I just haven't liked Denon as well. I've set up several 2807's that I don't think were any better than my 45TX.

So let's hope Pioneer did it right this time.

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post #280 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

Onkyo 805 just looked at the specs, native DSD processing using HDMI (as long as you use the direct setting). Any bass management, DSP processing and it is converted to LPCM just like the iLink connection on the 84/74/56/55 from Pioneer. Pioneer, are you listening?

Also has much better bass management than these preceding Pioneers, crossover frequency can be picked by channel, 5 band subwoofer equalization.

I think I found the replacement for my 56.

Um... the VSX-91TXH supports DSD over HDMI (page 52 of the manual). In fact, page 23 of the manual, which goes over all of the front display indicators, actually mentions a dedicated DSD>PCM light when it detects a DSD signal.... go figure
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post #281 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by kanjr View Post

Still like the reciever, but I may trade up to the 92 or 94 for the extra HDMI in and better video upconversion if Best Buy lets me.

If you're concerned about the video side of the equation, you should look at the Onkyo 875 with the Reon processing. It appears as if it will do a better job than any of the Pioneers. I would definitely consider the Pioneers if they had better video processing.
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post #282 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

So, kanjr, how does the 91 do with PCM output over HDMI? Is the LFE channel handled correctly? (Sure hope Pio has got this right this time!)


So far on my 91, it's been handling the LFE perfectly. It's even better than my old receiver, I had to crank up my powered subs volume on the old receiver, this one I have to turn down my sub. So far so good on my end.

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post #283 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

If you're concerned about the video side of the equation, you should look at the Onkyo 875 with the Reon processing. It appears as if it will do a better job than any of the Pioneers. I would definitely consider the Pioneers if they had better video processing.

judging from the posts iv'e read on the 805, i think the new onkyos are going to be a bust.
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post #284 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 08:38 PM
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My LFE is pretty good, too. I just put Casino Royale on and turned it up a bit - no shortage of LFE. I have a 12 year old Velodyne sub that sounds great with this receiver, no need so far to adjust levels.

So far, so good with this unit, the elites have been pretty good to me over the years (I still have the VSX09TX in my basement system - hard to believe that was the flagship 11 years ago).
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post #285 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rommy View Post

judging from the posts iv'e read on the 805, i think the new onkyos are going to be a bust.

Lately, the 805 thread is focused on the ~40ms delay in audio introduced by the Audyssey MultEQ XT equalization circuit. IMO, the issue is blown out of proportion, since a 20-40ms delay is found on a number of other popular receivers (incl. Denons) with Audyssey processing as well.

The delay is not noticeable with typical use, such as watching a DVD or TV. It is noticeable as an echo if you enable your TV speakers at the same time.
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post #286 of 1583 Old 07-09-2007, 09:05 PM
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Are there any high res, bigger pics of the 92 and 94?

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #287 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by blackmax2k1 View Post

Just got an update from Pioneer. Looks like the 92/94 won't be available til September/October.

How did they let you know that? Are you a retailer? How firm is that statement, did it come from someone else who heard it, or direct? (I'm on a list for a '94, and this will bum me out).
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post #288 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rommy View Post

judging from the posts iv'e read on the 805, i think the new onkyos are going to be a bust.

It still seems to me the concensus of opinion is very positive. The delay comments were address by bfdtv.
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post #289 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 06:07 AM
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I posted elsewhere that I am currently trying out both the 805 and the 91. Waitngi for the 92 but it seems a long way off. Anyhoo...the delay I get is from when I pause a Movie, comeback hit play the 805 takes a few seconds to pick up the audio. SO i get a silent movie for that time. Any clues on what this may be?

Also, the 805 seems to give slightly better detail but it seems lots more "harsh" to me. As someone else posted "in your face". The Pioneer seems a bit more laid back which I prefer. But that delay issue is truly annoying.

Though it is much more machine for the money,,,, i think the Onkyo is losing the battle here. But I might try the 875.

Does anyone know how I might set the 805 to be more laid back?
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post #290 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by BrandonMLR View Post

Um... the VSX-91TXH supports DSD over HDMI (page 52 of the manual).

Thanks for that info Brandon. There was concern because the press release mentions DVD-Audio but, no mention of SACD or DSD support.
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post #291 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterDI View Post

Does anyone know how I might set the 805 to be more laid back?


Have you tried dropping the high end and upping the mid and low end? You'll probably have to do that through the manual equalizer.
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post #292 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterDI View Post

I posted elsewhere that I am currently trying out both the 805 and the 91. Waitngi for the 92 but it seems a long way off. Anyhoo...the delay I get is from when I pause a Movie, comeback hit play the 805 takes a few seconds to pick up the audio. SO i get a silent movie for that time. Any clues on what this may be?

Repost...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

From what I've read of the Onkyo 805, there seem to be two implementation idiosyncrasies.

The first is the ~40ms delay audio introduced by the Audyssey MultEQ XT equalization circuit. Some delay is typical with Audyssey MultEQ XT (regardless of manufacturer), but the Onkyo doesn't provide any way to completely bypass that circuit, which means there will always be a slight delay as compared to some TV's speakers. For the overwhelming majority of users, this delay isn't noticeable in TV or DVD viewing (unless you turn on on your TV speakers, which results in an echo), but may be an issue of you like karaoke or play games where very low audio latency is preferred, such as Guitar Hero. It would be better if Onkyo provided a low-latency "game mode" to fully bypass all extra sound processing.

The second Onkyo 805 implementation "issue" relates to the delay in initial audio sync, as well switching between different audio formats, such as between Dolby Digital 2.0 and Dolby Digital 5.1. The Onkyo 805 reportedly takes ~4.0 seconds to re-acquire and output audio after such a switch, compared to ~1.5 seconds for the 2006 Denons. This is delay is most obvious with the pause function on some DVD players which cut the bitstream output. On these players, there is a delay of several seconds before the audio resumes after pressing play. Note this delay does not occur with all DVD players, only with those that cut their bitstream audio output on pause.

This issue is also noticeable on some broadcast TV channels. You can lose the first 1-2 seconds of program audio after a channel switches from DD2.0 for the commercials to DD5.1 for the actual programming. This may or may not effect you, depending on whether your local broadcasters regularly switch between DD2.0 and DD5.1 (many do not). It does not affect most cable channels like HBO, which switch audio streams well before the program actually begins, nor does it affect channels that always broadcast in DD5.1.

I wouldn't call these two "implementation idiosyncrasies" showstoppers by any means. Other popular receivers have suffered from far worse. The 805 uses some of the best components you can find in a mid-range receiver and most of the comments on its audio performance seem to be very positive. But the 805 clearly isn't the "perfect" receiver, in part because of these issues.

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post #293 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterDI View Post

I posted elsewhere that I am currently trying out both the 805 and the 91. Waitngi for the 92 but it seems a long way off. Anyhoo...the delay I get is from when I pause a Movie, comeback hit play the 805 takes a few seconds to pick up the audio. SO i get a silent movie for that time. Any clues on what this may be?

Also, the 805 seems to give slightly better detail but it seems lots more "harsh" to me. As someone else posted "in your face". The Pioneer seems a bit more laid back which I prefer. But that delay issue is truly annoying.

Though it is much more machine for the money,,,, i think the Onkyo is losing the battle here. But I might try the 875.

Does anyone know how I might set the 805 to be more laid back?

Since the Onkyo 805 is THX certified it has re-equalization. It rolls back the treble on the front three channels so it won't sound so bright. Try the THX mode...

Panasonic TC-P50ST60 plasma HD television, Onkyo TX-SR805 and PIONEER ELITE VSX-47TX receivers, Klipsch RB-75(2 pair) and RB-61 bookshelf speakers, Klipsch RSW-10, RSW-12(2), Velodyne HGS-12, HGS-18 subwoofers, PS3 80G, PIONEER DV-525 dvd player, Klipsch RS-42 surrounds, Klipsch RC-52 center channel
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post #294 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 10:41 AM
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Thanks for that info Brandon. There was concern because the press release mentions DVD-Audio but, no mention of SACD or DSD support.

It not only has to support it, but support DSD at the DAC level (in other words not convert it to PCM before passing it to the DAC). As far as I can tell, the pioneers have always converted to PCM for anything other than direct on the 49/55/56/59/74/84 models. With my 56 there is a slight but noticeable degradation in sound quality using bass management, and a whopping degradation if you use any other DSP on DSD. The sound gets harsh, and the spatial queues get lost to some degree, probably just not very good conversion to PCM, might be related to the quality of the 88/24 conversion that most hardware based conversion has used up to this point.
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post #295 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

It not only has to support it, but support DSD at the DAC level (in other words not convert it to PCM before passing it to the DAC). As far as I can tell, the pioneers have always converted to PCM for anything other than direct on the 49/55/56/59/74/84 models. With my 56 there is a slight but noticeable degradation in sound quality using bass management, and a whopping degradation if you use any other DSP on DSD. The sound gets harsh, and the spatial queues get lost to some degree, probably just not very good conversion to PCM, might be related to the quality of the 88/24 conversion that most hardware based conversion has used up to this point.

So are you saying it should pull the DSD bitstream, or is it most likely going to convert it to PCM. I'm curious because I'm tempted to buy a few SACD's to listen to it. I have one DVD-A cd, the Offsprings greatest hits, but I haven't tested it yet. But it DSD gets lowered in quality, I might pass. How should I know if it's going through complete?

EDIT: Nevermind, my SACD player reads the DSD, and automatically converts it to PCM, so I guess there shouldn't be a loss there then.

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post #296 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by stubeeef View Post

How did they let you know that? Are you a retailer? How firm is that statement, did it come from someone else who heard it, or direct? (I'm on a list for a '94, and this will bum me out).

From the same chick at Pioneer that posted the press release back in May.
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post #297 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by blackmax2k1 View Post

From the same chick at Pioneer that posted the press release back in May.

CRUD!
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post #298 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 12:28 PM
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EDIT: Nevermind, my SACD player reads the DSD, and automatically converts it to PCM, so I guess there shouldn't be a loss there then.

That is why I won't buy another Pioneer receiver if it has no native DSD processing. The existing conversion chips degrade the sound, the Sony PS3 does it at a much higher sampling rate in software, I need to hear that.

I have a large collection of classical and jazz SACDs, DVD-Audio cannot compare on sound quality for unprocessed sound and if you happen to want to listen to it on a 2 channel playback system it is messed up even more by downmixing it to 2 channels if you use DVD-Audio, SACD uses a separate recording layer for that in the hybrid discs (along with the good old fashion CD layer).

Admittedly, SACDs are not any good for most pop music because most pop is heavily compressed and processed in the digital domain during the recording and mixing stages and lots of effects are put into it. Basically pop gains almost nothing from a high definition recording process.

The SACD recording equipment just records, nothing more, there were not really any mixers before late last year for SACD and even then it is no longer really DSD when it is mixed it is a hybrid. If you want to hear what the microphone hears use DSD if you want to process it use PCM, that is why all the classical recording studios that record in high def use SACD and acoustic Jazz recordings use it for the same reason.
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post #299 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by swestbom View Post

That is why I won't buy another Pioneer receiver if it has no native DSD processing. The existing conversion chips degrade the sound, the Sony PS3 does it at a much higher sampling rate in software, I need to hear that.

I have a large collection of classical and jazz SACDs, DVD-Audio cannot compare on sound quality for unprocessed sound and if you happen to want to listen to it on a 2 channel playback system it is messed up even more by downmixing it to 2 channels if you use DVD-Audio, SACD uses a separate recording layer for that in the hybrid discs (along with the good old fashion CD layer).

Admittedly, SACDs are not any good for most pop music because most pop is heavily compressed and processed in the digital domain during the recording and mixing stages and lots of effects are put into it. Basically pop gains almost nothing from a high definition recording process.

The SACD recording equipment just records, nothing more, there were not really any mixers before late last year for SACD and even then it is no longer really DSD when it is mixed it is a hybrid. If you want to hear what the microphone hears use DSD if you want to process it use PCM, that is why all the classical recording studios that record in high def use SACD and acoustic Jazz recordings use it for the same reason.

Yeah, I have the PS3, so I'm not too worried about it. The thing I'm thinking about though, and I'm thinking on contacting Pioneer, is asking them if it really has internal DSD output, without conversion to PCM. But since the PS3 has it all done by software, I'm pretty confident it should sound amazing. I just ordered a few SACD's to try it out, it's something I don't normally listen to, but since I have a high end receiver now, I figure might as well try it out. So far this receiver has been amazing, and since the PS3 sends it out as PCM before it hits the reciever, I'm hoping not much, if anything is lost.

Bryon "Mr. B" Smith
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post #300 of 1583 Old 07-10-2007, 01:57 PM
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without conversion to PCM. But since the PS3 has it all done by software, I'm pretty confident it should sound amazing

Probably a lot better than the older chips do it in hardware, but probably not as good as native DSD, but who knows. All I know is that LPCM degrades a lot less when you use DSP on it than does DSD converted in the Pioneers so if you use the DSP features you probably come out ahead. It really is a moot point for me though since I don't use any DSP on DSD except for the occasional bass management where the SACD has deep bass but it is a definite tradeoff, cleaner bass for degraded sound overall.
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