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post #1501 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Back to Phantom of the Opera (down-mixed to stereo on my Oppo), I was floored by what I was hearing with the Sonic amplifier. Clarity and detail like I never heard before from my speakers.

I've had this movie many years and just realized the sound of the opera is not limited to the opera house. It's everywhere. On the theater roof top, the cellars and cemetery. On my old amp it just all sounded loud.

Credit goes to the Oppo too.
Awsome, thats how I felt when I received my m3a-5700. Can't wait to hear some more reviews.

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post #1502 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 05:11 PM
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One other thing, and something that I truly love about Class D amps, after playing the Phantom at reference level for 20 minutes, the case was not even warm.

Class D rules
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post #1503 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
One other thing, and something that I truly love about Class D amps, after playing the Phantom at reference level for 20 minutes, the case was not even warm.

Class D rules
I can get mine warm at reference but at 1500w x 2 and 120db. When I say warm I mean just barely. After listening at that level for any period of time I'm more worried about my hearing than anything. It is just so clean you have no clue how loud it is untill you stop the music and your ears are ringing.

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post #1504 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 05:41 PM
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I agree, with sound this clean, I want to crank it through the roof. Not a good idea, though.
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post #1505 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
One other thing, and something that I truly love about Class D amps, after playing the Phantom at reference level for 20 minutes, the case was not even warm.

Class D rules
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I can get mine warm at reference but at 1500w x 2 and 120db. When I say warm I mean just barely. After listening at that level for any period of time I'm more worried about my hearing than anything. It is just so clean you have no clue how loud it is untill you stop the music and your ears are ringing.
Mine gets warm if I play it hard, BUT it is in an enclosed AV cabinet. And it needs to be on for a loooong time. but just warm, never hot, and the cabonet is actively cooled. My Class D Audio amp gets a lot warmer than the D-Sonic. Dennis has really come up with a seriously good design.
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post #1506 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I can get mine warm at reference but at 1500w x 2 and 120db. When I say warm I mean just barely. After listening at that level for any period of time I'm more worried about my hearing than anything. It is just so clean you have no clue how loud it is untill you stop the music and your ears are ringing.

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Mine gets warm if I play it hard, BUT it is in an enclosed AV cabinet. And it needs to be on for a loooong time. but just warm, never hot, and the cabonet is actively cooled. My Class D Audio amp gets a lot warmer than the D-Sonic. Dennis has really come up with a seriously good design.
Well, I guess what that really means is you're enjoying the amp at high levels. My old ICE amp was never pushed to those levels. It couldn't without stressing out.
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post #1507 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 06:06 PM
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Well, I guess what that really means is you're enjoying the amp at high levels. My old ICE amp was never pushed to those levels. It couldn't without stressing out.
Somewhat, not ear-bleeding levels - but comfortably loud for me. I never been to "somebody call the police" level.....

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post #1508 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 06:23 PM
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Well, I guess what that really means is you're enjoying the amp at high levels. My old ICE amp was never pushed to those levels. It couldn't without stressing out.
Hahaha. I didn't buy the most powerful amplifer I could find to listen at "normal" levels. I needed something keep up with 12kw of woofage.

And yes that is dust from the cieling on top of my Orbit Shifters. I'm tired of cleaning it off everyday...hehe

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post #1509 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 07:11 PM
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OMG, is there a theater somewhere missing equipment? Rock on!
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post #1510 of 1536 Old 06-15-2017, 10:43 PM
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The difference is the input stage, the amp module is exactly same. A lot of class D amplifiers use the same modules from various suppliers (B&O, Hypex, Pascal etc), but what sets amps from the same supplier apart is housing and input stage. Some companies may modify a little beyond that, but not much. When there's a difference in the sound between modules it is usually because of the input stage.
A really excellent power amp should not have a sound or personality of its own as this would disqualify its status of excellence. Exceptional neutrality and transparency is the ultimate goal here even if not everybody likes these terms because of personal taste. But I would rather enjoy listening to the sound of the source instead of listening to the amps sonic signature. The often stated "straight wire with amplification" still holds true at least for me.
If any sound signature is been added by its input buffer something must be at fault.

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post #1511 of 1536 Old 06-16-2017, 05:48 AM
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OMG, is there a theater somewhere missing equipment? Rock on!
No I hijacked the truck leaving an EDM concert

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post #1512 of 1536 Old 06-16-2017, 05:50 AM
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A really excellent power amp should not have a sound or personality of its own as this would disqualify its status of excellence. Exceptional neutrality and transparency is the ultimate goal here even if not everybody likes these terms because of personal taste. But I would rather enjoy listening to the sound of the source instead of listening to the amps sonic signature. The often stated "straight wire with amplification" still holds true at least for me.
If any sound signature is been added by its input buffer something must be at fault.
Perfectly said and that's what I think Dennis did by modifying the input stage. The amp did leave a signature on the sound before and now I think it sounds pretty much like any other amp I've ever heard except for the clarity and Power

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post #1513 of 1536 Old 06-16-2017, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
A really excellent power amp should not have a sound or personality of its own as this would disqualify its status of excellence. Exceptional neutrality and transparency is the ultimate goal here even if not everybody likes these terms because of personal taste. But I would rather enjoy listening to the sound of the source instead of listening to the amps sonic signature. The often stated "straight wire with amplification" still holds true at least for me.
If any sound signature is been added by its input buffer something must be at fault.
I totally agree, tube amps excepted. The only thing an amp should do is amplify the source. I'm extremely pleased with what I get from my D-Sonic, and will be very curious to see if I can notice a difference with the modification. I'm one of those guys that generally can't hear a difference among amps, so if I do, that'll be saying something. Admittedly, I have no way to do a fair comparison, before and after, so it'll be all from memory and maybe some expectation bias. I suppose I could do some measuring with REW before and after since nothing else will change and see if there is anything there, don't know if that would reveal anything or not?

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I have the 5.1 setup now. Here's a shot of the three channel amp. It's small and neat and now I have extra space on the rack.



I was afraid at first not going with the ATI/NCore mix, but the d-sonic and Pascal modules are excellent too. Class D amps have really improved.

Lots more to follow.
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My stereo amp is 400 Wpc, but the module occupies only one half of the case; there's room in the box for a second module. Wow!
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Just switched to the more powerful M3a-1200S, so I can rupture my ear drums. Should be here Tuesday.
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Just switched to the more powerful M3a-1200S, so I can rupture my ear drums. Should be here Tuesday.
You're a madman.


If only you had your speakers in you signature so I could remember what you're powering.

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They're just Totem bookshelf speakers, but they seem power hungry for average sensitivity. They played fine with the d-sonic 800S, actually. I'm merely preparing for upgrades later on.

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They're just Totem bookshelf speakers, but they seem power hungry for average sensitivity. They played fine with the d-sonic 800S, actually. I'm merely preparing for upgrades later on.
My buddy bought the M3-3000S for the Statements I built him and he has no complaints. I'm in the always have power reserves group, but I'm thinking of getting the 1200S too.

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Statements? Are those subs?

Wish we knew more about the modules in each amp. Dennis explained that the one module in the 800S can be bridged to output 700W @ 8 ohm, and that with two of these modules in the chassis you have the 1200S. At least that's what I gathered.

So which modules are in the M3a-3000S?

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Bridging amp channels is usually not advisable, because in general you are inhibiting / loosing the capability of driving standard speakers @ 4-8 Ohm, which normally occupy the impedance region between 20 - 30 (?) Ohm as upper limit and ~3 (?) Ohm as lower limit depending on individual speaker models. Get an impedance graph of your speakers if you don't believe me...
By bridging / stacking amp channels the amps internal source impedance of the bridged channels is been doubled too (reducing damping factor by ~50%) of the amp channels involved.

That area below 8 Ohm is then becoming problematic. A "better" power amp should be able to deliver a clean and stable signal into the 3-4 Ohm region which means being stable to appr. 2 Ohm and delivering enough current down there in this region.

Some "problematic" and power hungry speakers like the (in-famous) Infinity Kappas where even reaching lower (< 3 Ohm) making them hard to drive by the average power amp.

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Thanks gurkey. I'll ask more about this tomorrow.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Statements? Are those subs?

Wish we knew more about the modules in each amp. Dennis explained that the one module in the 800S can be bridged to output 700W @ 8 ohm, and that with two of these modules in the chassis you have the 1200S. At least that's what I gathered.

So which modules are in the M3a-3000S?
I believe the pascal.

Here are Statements. There are many version and I'm building Statement II's for myself as my wife really liked them and bugged me after I made them for my friend.

http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html

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post #1524 of 1536 Old Today, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Bridging amp channels is usually not advisable, because in general you are inhibiting / loosing the capability of driving standard speakers @ 4-8 Ohm, which normally occupy the impedance region between 20 - 30 (?) Ohm as upper limit and ~3 (?) Ohm as lower limit depending on individual speaker models. Get an impedance graph of your speakers if you don't believe me...
By bridging / stacking amp channels the amps internal source impedance of the bridged channels is been doubled too (reducing damping factor by ~50%) of the amp channels involved.

That area below 8 Ohm is then becoming problematic. A "better" power amp should be able to deliver a clean and stable signal into the 3-4 Ohm region which means being stable to appr. 2 Ohm and delivering enough current down there in this region.

Some "problematic" and power hungry speakers like the (in-famous) Infinity Kappas where even reaching lower (< 3 Ohm) making them hard to drive by the average power amp.
Dennis responded that it will not be an issue with the 1200S. I take that to mean the amps are bridged. I believe ATI does the same with their Class D amps.

Last edited by Pres2play; Today at 08:09 AM.
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They're just Totem bookshelf speakers, but they seem power hungry for average sensitivity. They played fine with the d-sonic 800S, actually. I'm merely preparing for upgrades later on.
Yes, Totems in general are more power-hungry, my local dealer agrees with this, they really know Totem and recommend a bit of extra power for them. My amp has zero issue driving my Tribe IIIs, especially as surrounds.

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That area below 8 Ohm is then becoming problematic. A "better" power amp should be able to deliver a clean and stable signal into the 3-4 Ohm region which means being stable to appr. 2 Ohm and delivering enough current down there in this region.
D-Sonic amps as advertised are stable down to 2 Ohms.

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I believe the pascal.
Correct!

5.2.4 System....Display: Sony XBR-65X930D; Processing: Anthem AVM60; Power Distribution: Panamax M5400-PM;
Mains:
Paradigm 85F and 55C (Piano Black); Side Surrounds: Totem Acoustic Tribe III (Dusk); Amplification: D-Sonic M3-2800-7 (7ch. x 400w);
ATMOS:
Definitive Technology DI8R; Amplification: Class D Audio SDS-470C (4ch. x 300w)
Subwoofers:
2 x SVS-SB13Ultras; Media: Oppo UDP-203, Sony BDP S-470, Pioneer CLD-59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
Bridging amp channels is usually not advisable, because in general you are inhibiting / loosing the capability of driving standard speakers @ 4-8 Ohm, which normally occupy the impedance region between 20 - 30 (?) Ohm as upper limit and ~3 (?) Ohm as lower limit depending on individual speaker models. Get an impedance graph of your speakers if you don't believe me...
By bridging / stacking amp channels the amps internal source impedance of the bridged channels is been doubled too (reducing damping factor by ~50%) of the amp channels involved.

That area below 8 Ohm is then becoming problematic. A "better" power amp should be able to deliver a clean and stable signal into the 3-4 Ohm region which means being stable to appr. 2 Ohm and delivering enough current down there in this region.

Some "problematic" and power hungry speakers like the (in-famous) Infinity Kappas where even reaching lower (< 3 Ohm) making them hard to drive by the average power amp.
Perhaps this explains the high dampen factor on the Hypes NCore and Pascal modules.
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post #1527 of 1536 Old Today, 08:16 AM
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The answers are from the manufacturer and should be taken with a grain of salt because they are not independently verified...
Any measurements available ?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pres2play View Post
Statements? Are those subs?

Wish we knew more about the modules in each amp. Dennis explained that the one module in the 800S can be bridged to output 700W @ 8 ohm, and that with two of these modules in the chassis you have the 1200S. At least that's what I gathered.

So which modules are in the M3a-3000S?
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Originally Posted by pgwalsh View Post
I believe the pascal.

Here are Statements. There are many version and I'm building Statement II's for myself as my wife really liked them and bugged me after I made them for my friend.

http://speakerdesignworks.com/Statements.html
No I meant to say, what number of the Pascal amps might it take to output 1500W, if one bridged module is needed for 700W? Two bridged modules bridged yet again? Not terribly important, but may give a clue how many modules to expect in the chassis. I thought two modules for the 800S, which is 400W x 2, but is all one module. The 1200S has two modules (I am told).

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post #1529 of 1536 Old Today, 08:57 AM
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BTW pgwalsh, I copied the notes on those Statements to read on the subway. Very nice. What do they run?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post
The answers are from the manufacturer and should be taken with a grain of salt because they are not independently verified...
Any measurements available ?
Not much out there, but I haven't read this entire thread either. I guess I'll have my answer soon...I just shipped out the 800S.
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