D-Sonic custom Audio amps - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 02:00 PM
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"Rotel RMB-1085, which is is a 100w x 5 ICEpower amp, which lists for $1200"

I wonder why the RMB-1077 w/only two more channels is twice as much ($2500).

Noah
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post #182 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

The 7-ch modules are very interesting.

The power ratings are for only 1 ch driven though, losing almost half with all ch driven (not that that ever happens.

Also I wonder what the ratings are for 4 ohm loads.

Ooh good point..I hadn't caught the multi-channel power drops. That's in contrast with the modular amps that are all-channels driven at their full rating. So I guess there is compromise. But as you said, in reality you won't be powering all channels at their max so may be a moot point. Other characteristics of the amp may improve the AQ enough to overlook the drop in power.
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post #183 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"Rotel RMB-1085, which is is a 100w x 5 ICEpower amp, which lists for $1200"

I wonder why the RMB-1077 w/only two more channels is twice as much ($2500).

From my understaning, the 1077 uses older generation ICEpower modules that are (much?) more costly. So the five and six channel amps are a MUCH better value for the money.
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post #184 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

From my understaning, the 1077 uses older generation ICEpower modules that are (much?) more costly. So the five and six channel amps are a MUCH better value for the money.

Depending on how they perform of course.
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post #185 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Warpdrv View Post

Well It looks like I will be joining the D-Sonic Family as well.... Ordered the 2000-5, looking forward to the overwhelming amount of power to be on hand. I'll be running pretty much the same setup as rnrgagne, Paradigm Sig S4's, C3 and Studio ADP's for my 5.1. Looks like a killer amp... Seems to be not much else out there at that price range.

what equipment are you currently using?
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post #186 of 1287 Old 02-29-2008, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post

I wonder how these would compare to krell or mcintosh? How about sim audio?

They're better than everything with lower efficiency (unless you need more power, in which case only amps with more power may be better), and they will sound the same.

"Vintage" is good for wine, not for A/V equipment.

-Dan D.
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post #187 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by phastlane View Post

Hi EJ, I was wondering how your 61K ohms compared to the D-Sonic amps, are they the same too? What is the D-sonic input impedance spec?

And because I am ignorant, what exactly does a higher input impedance do for you?

Thank you!

The D-Sonic input impedance is the same as I mentioned above, 8K on the +, and 10K on the - input.

Higher input impedance allows the amplifier to be compatible with virtually any source. With lower input impedances, there is a level of top end detail, and depth that is lost. The higher impedance allows the source equipment to accurately drive the amplifier without loss of signal in the transmission. A 10K vs. a 60K input impedance would be 6 times harder to drive, and can cause some sources to clip early as well. Tube sources are known to not tolerate lower impedances very well. This is why 99% of the high-end equipment on the market today has a 50K or higher input impedance.

I hope that this answered your question.

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post #188 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Higher input impedance allows the amplifier to be compatible with virtually any source. With lower input impedances, there is a level of top end detail, and depth that is lost.

For your typical "modern" mid-priced (say under $3000) solid-state pre/pro or AVR with RCA outputs, does this higher impedance provide the benefits you describe or is it mainly for tube or ultra-high audophile gear?
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post #189 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

I know cosmetics are just that, cosmetics, but I must say both the D-Sonic and Wyred amps have *a lot* to be desired in the aesthetics department. While I'm sure they sound and perform quite well, their visual appearance is a big turn off for me. I'm not asking for some super expensive custom case that would add $500 to the price tag.

But having a more sculpted, stylish case would do wonders for people that value aesthetics in additional to suberb audio quality.

Parasound Halo and Rotel amps all look like high quality gear, in addition to having solid components. Wyred and D-Sonic have a home-grown basement DIY project appearance that is really lacking.

Any chance of getting improved chassis aesthetics?


I definitely think that in the future, our product line will have better aesthetics. I don't believe that pictures really do justice on both our amplifiers, and D-Sonics. This will obviously take some time, and would also add some cost to the products.

Others have the parts made in China to keep the cost down, which we are not willing to do at this time.

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post #190 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

For your typical "modern" mid-priced (say under $3000) solid-state pre/pro or AVR with RCA outputs, does this higher impedance provide the benefits you describe or is it mainly for tube or ultra-high audophile gear?

Higher input impedances will provide benefits in any system. The only time when lower impedance is desired is when you have noisy outputs from your source. The majority or the noise will be redirected to ground, not to the amplifier. The only problem is that your signal will also do the same.

Not to say that lower impedances are bad, it's just that it can cause an extremely degraded sound. Every system can benefit from this, not just the high-end systems. In addition, you can get more "high-end" sound from economical equipment.

I definitely think that in the future our product line will have better aesthetics. I don't think that the pictures really do justice on both our amplifiers, and the D-Sonics. This will obviously take some time, and would also add some cost to the products. Others have the parts made in China to keep the cost down, which we are not willing to do at this time.

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post #191 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 11:12 AM
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"With lower input impedances, there is a level of top end detail, and depth that is lost. The higher impedance allows the source equipment to accurately drive the amplifier without loss of signal in the transmission. A 10K vs. a 60K input impedance would be 6 times harder to drive, and can cause some sources to clip early as well."

Highly questionable/debatable assertions IMO.

They are generalizations which may or may not apply depending on the mating equipment, and if they do apply the only difference may be a loss of gain and no effect at all on sound quality.

Noah
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post #192 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

I was comparing the Rotel RMB-1085, which is is a 100w x 5 ICEpower amp, which lists for $1200 and the Wyred 125w x5 which lists for $2595. Unless I'm mistaken, the 25w power difference would be negligible in the real world.

So how can the Wyred amp cost twice as much? Yes I know you get the option to expand to seven channels in the future, but for twice the list price what else am I getting? Seems like a hard sell me, but I could be missing something.

I would think the Rotels have a higher mark-up given their marketing, slick web site, brand name, etc.

Input?

The amplifiers that you are talking about are made up of different modules, each of which is a fraction of what the ASP modules cost. The modules that Rotel is using don't offer what the ASP's do, such as short-circuit protection.

For example, the RMB-1077 consists of 2-250ASP modules powering 5-250A modules. If you're looking for a multichannel amplifier to play at lower volumes with smaller speakers, this would be a great solution. If you have medium to large speakers and also have the need for medium-loud levels, it just wouldn't cut it. At any given time, you can only get 250-300W of power out of the amp between all the channels. I know that most movies with any action scenes could easily need more power between 7 channels.

We do have a solution.

I'll let the cat out of the bag a tad early.

Starting March 1st, we will be offering a 5 channel multi-channel made up with 200ASC modules for $1499, and a 7 channel version for $1999. This will be in our typical MC chassis, and will have all the same features for input selection and buffer.

If anyone is interested, this would be a steal! We're talking 100W per channel ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN in 8 ohms.

EJ SARMENTO
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post #193 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

"With lower input impedances, there is a level of top end detail, and depth that is lost. The higher impedance allows the source equipment to accurately drive the amplifier without loss of signal in the transmission. A 10K vs. a 60K input impedance would be 6 times harder to drive, and can cause some sources to clip early as well."

Highly questionable/debatable assertions IMO.

They are generalizations which may or may not apply depending on the mating equipment, and if they do apply the only difference may be a loss of gain and no effect at all on sound quality.

You are correct, but let's remember that the levels of the intricate details are very low. When the overall level drops, you details can now vanish due to the attenuation, thus changing what you're hearing because you can no longer hear what is suppose to be there.

EJ SARMENTO
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post #194 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

...

We do have a solution.

I'll let the cat out of the bag a tad early.

Starting March 1st, we will be offering a 5 channel multi-channel made up with 200ASC modules for $1499, and a 7 channel version for $1999. This will be in our typical MC chassis, and will have all the same features for input selection and buffer.

If anyone is interested, this would be a steal! We're talking 100W per channel ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN in 8 ohms.

EJ SARMENTO
WYRED 4 SOUND
wyred4sound.com

I'm new the ICE Modules, but how do these modules compare to the Rotel and the other AMPs in your product line? Also, will your web site be updated with info on this new offering?

Thanks

Ken
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post #195 of 1287 Old 03-01-2008, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by facke02 View Post

I'm new the ICE Modules, but how do these modules compare to the Rotel and the other AMPs in your product line? Also, will your web site be updated with info on this new offering?

Thanks

Hello Ken,

These modules are the same as what I had in my stereo amplifier which has sold out!. They have the same sweet sound, however, they're a little warmer than the ASP modules. Everyone who has had the chance to own one of my stereo amps has absolutely loved it.

They are also used in PS Audio's Trio A-100, C-100, Bel Canto's 300S to name a few. Our other products utilize the same modules you will find in the higher prices products of these companies and many others as well.

Our plan is to have the site updated with this by Monday.

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post #196 of 1287 Old 03-02-2008, 12:08 AM
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"You are correct, but let’s remember that the levels of the intricate details are very low. When the overall level drops, you details can now vanish due to the attenuation, thus changing what you're hearing because you can no longer hear what is suppose to be there."

So just turn up the volume; the noise floor was dropped the same amount as the signal.

Noah
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post #197 of 1287 Old 03-02-2008, 05:44 AM
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I have a D-Sonic 2000-5 paired with an Integra 9.8 and Dali Helicon 400 Speakers. The amp has been left on 24/7 for the last 4.5 months. It does not get hot (only warm), even when all channels are being driven to very loud levels when watching a Blu-ray disk with a DTS HD-Master Audio track. I've heard direct a comparison between a 2-channel Rotel A/B amp and a D-Sonic 2 channel amp (with 2-1000 asp ICE modules without any modification), and the sound quality from the D-Sonic was by far superior. This sentiment was shared by almost everyone in attendance at the HAS meeting when we did the comparison. I've also heard a D-Sonic 2 channel amp (with 2-1000 asp ICE modules without any modification), paired with a tube pre-amp and some very nice DIY Statement speakers. The sound was absolutely fantastic. I also use a Squeezebox for 2-channel music hooked up to the 9.8 via an optical cable. The sound I get (I'm also using the Audyssey room correction feature of the 9.8), is very neutral and very detailed at all frequency levels. I've not had the opportunity to hear an ICE amp with the modifications done by Wyred, but I know several people with tube pre-amps who after listening to the un-modified D-Sonic on their systems elected to go with a stock unit without any modification. I've attached several of photos of my amp. As you can see its design is very simple and elegant.
LL
LL
LL
LL
LL
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post #198 of 1287 Old 03-02-2008, 10:19 AM
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speedoflight, thanks for taking the time to post your listening thoughts/comparisons and the pics as well.. I'm looking forward to my 2000-5 showing up, and was concerned about the nature of the SQ of the Class-D sounding too sterile or not warm enough...
I already have a Rotel 1095, with my Studio system, and was thinking of going that route again for the Sigs... but I'm going on everyone here experience and reviews...

Pairing the D-Sonic with Paradigm's Sigs, which are forward sounding to begin with... But it sounds likely from all who already own the D-Sonics or Class D's that I'll be more then happy..
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post #199 of 1287 Old 03-02-2008, 11:11 AM
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Hi Noah,
I acknowledge your opinion. However, we have found with extensive R&D that our amplifier connected to Genesis 350se speakers is much more musical, and detailed with higher input impedances. Looking into that further, we have connected pre-amplifiers to the Audio Precision, and found that the frequency response of the pre-amp doesn’t remain the same under load, it becomes rolled off.

Pre-amps are voltage amplifiers, not current amplifiers. Voltage amplifiers are not designed to power low impedance loads. Not to say that they won’t, but that it will change the musical characteristics.

You can see that even power amplifiers have different frequency responses based on loading. If this is happening to something that is made to power heavy loads, you can bet that source equipment will do the same, but in a more extreme manner. The easier the amplifier is to drive, the closer you can obtain input to output similarities in sound. Any amplifier, which can be pre-amp or power amp, will be affected by the amount of loading.
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post #200 of 1287 Old 03-04-2008, 06:44 PM
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Do the new Wyred Special Edition amps feature the same custom tweaks to the ICEpower modules that the "premium" line does? As I recall, you have changed out a component or two on the OEM power modules to provide improved audio quality.
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post #201 of 1287 Old 03-04-2008, 08:14 PM
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Unfortunately we do not include the "tweaks" to the modules on the special edition amplifiers. We do offer upgrades to the 200ASC modules, but the cost of the amplifiers has made it impossible to do. If a customer should request upgrades, they are possible, and do make a great deal of sonic benefits, unfortunately it would be an extra cost.

The larger modules do get "tweaks" in the stock form, and consists of bypassing the coupling caps with audio grade wimas, and modifying the servo circuit to limit the effect it has on the sound quality.

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post #202 of 1287 Old 03-04-2008, 10:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

Unfortunately we do not include the "tweaks" to the modules on the special edition amplifiers. We do offer upgrades to the 200ASC modules, but the cost of the amplifiers has made it impossible to do. If a customer should request upgrades, they are possible, and do make a great deal of sonic benefits, unfortunately it would be an extra cost.

The larger modules do get "tweaks" in the stock form, and consists of bypassing the coupling caps with audio grade wimas, and modifying the servo circuit to limit the effect it has on the sound quality.

Thank you,
EJ Sarmento
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So for your 5 channel special edition, how much additional would the 'tweaks' add to the base price?

It might be helpful to have a matrix on your web site comparing the two models so that its more clear of the trade-offs between the two product lines. Unless I was a AVSer, I wouldn't have known about the tweaks on the premium product line.
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post #203 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 07:53 AM
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The mod for the 200ASC modules would cost $150 per channel and would consist of the replacement of a quad op-amp chip to a more dynamic, ultra low noise LM chip, replacement of a hand full of resistors, and caps to audio grade Dale Rn55d resistors, and MUSE capacitors. Other options such as input and output connector upgrades are also available upon request.

Thank you for the unput on the trade offs, you are correct, and I will do my best to see if we can get something posted rather quickly.

Thank You,
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post #204 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WYRED 4 SOUND View Post

The mod for the 200ASC modules would cost $150 per channel and would consist of the replacement of a quad op-amp chip to a more dynamic, ultra low noise LM chip, replacement of a hand full of resistors, and caps to audio grade Dale Rn55d resistors, and MUSE capacitors. Other options such as input and output connector upgrades are also available upon request.

Thanks! So a special edition 5x100 is about $350 less than the 5x125 "regular" line after the upgrades are accounted for, according to my calculator. Doing some more math, the special edition is saving $70 per channel for the different ICEpower modules.
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post #205 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 08:50 AM
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I wonder how the Special Edition 5x100 would compare to the Parasound A52?

Bill

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post #206 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 10:31 AM
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Yes, you are correct. There are definately some advantages to take when considering the Special edition. My calculator also matches yours!

Thank You,
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post #207 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 03:51 PM
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HAs anyone tried one of the Wyred4Sound MC amps for biamping -- I am curious about the quality of sound from a 4 channel configuration running 500w on the bass and 125w on top for my Von Schweikerts. The idea of a one box solution is very tempting, even if, as some say, the box ain't too pretty

But seriously, is there a disadvantage to this type of MC amp use over say, running mono blocks or a pair of stereo amps from Wyred??
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post #208 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I wonder how the Special Edition 5x100 would compare to the Parasound A52?

Bill

That's a very good question. The A52 is much sexier looking, and has similar wattage specs. In fact, used A52s can go for as little as the 100 special edition w/o the audiophile upgrades. I'd be tempted to go for the A52, but I don't know how the audio quality compares.

Edit: The A52 has 47K unbalanced impedance, and 94K balanced. So I would think this compares favorably with the Wyred specs as well.
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post #209 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 05:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odelacroix View Post

HAs anyone tried one of the Wyred4Sound MC amps for biamping -- I am curious about the quality of sound from a 4 channel configuration running 500w on the bass and 125w on top for my Von Schweikerts. The idea of a one box solution is very tempting, even if, as some say, the box ain't too pretty

That's exactly what B&O does in their powered speakers and is the primary application these modules were designed for.

http://www.bang-olufsen.com/page.asp?id=40


They use two 1000ASPs (500w) for the bass & mid bass and two 250ASP's (125w) for the mid and treble
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post #210 of 1287 Old 03-05-2008, 06:37 PM
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Do either D-sonic or Wyred offer in-home trial periods? If the multichannel with the 1000ASPs up front was more or less in the same ballpark for sound quality as my cary monoblocks, I wouldn't mind replacing them for the space savings and to stop heating up my closet, but I'm a bit hesitant to buy them having not tried them in my system.
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