"The" Onkyo TX-SR805 Thread - Page 792 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #23731 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It's the Audyssey processor that causes the heat cooking the HDMI board and other parts. Disable Audyssey by doing a factory reset and see for yourself how much the heat drops. Simply turning off Audyssey does nothing. It still runs once you use the calibration Mike until you do a factory reset. Many people don't know about this.

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Interesting... but I love my Audyssey so the fans will just have to keep on chugging'...

Are you talking' to me?
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post #23732 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 12:02 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
The 805 is now ten years old. Happy New Year! ... IntelliVolume and all 805's owners.
______

* You know what would be cool? ...If Onkyo could perform a magic trick: A firmware update in creating a new DSP surround mode...Atmos "pseudo" Sound.
Hearing sounds from above without any real physical speaker's presence...all in the DSP magic power (7.1.pseudo4). :-D
Hey -- I own a 605, not an 805!!!

But I wish I did own an 805 along with you lucky lads...

But Happy New Year indeed to you, Bob, your family and all other 805 owners here!
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post #23733 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 01:08 PM
 
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The 605 was released before the 805...so it's a little older...by few weeks. ...Or maybe not.

* I gave away my 805 a long time ago, to one of my brothers (he's still using it, and still working).

Today, in the year two thousand and seventeen, AV receivers weighting over fifty pounds are rare, very.
So the 805 still has heft to it, it doesn't feel empty; it's for strong men who can lift heavy weights and position them in their racks.
Back in the seventies stereo receivers, the flagship models, they were well built, gorgeous looking, and had good solidity (weight).

♦ Question: Who has (manufacturer) the heaviest AV receiver today in 2017, and which model is it? ...And of course its net weight.
_______

EDIT (805 vs 605 - which was released first): • https://www.cnet.com/news/onkyo-2007...udio-features/
Official Onkyo 605 Owners Thread

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-02-2017 at 01:28 PM.
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post #23734 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 01:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
It's the Audyssey processor that causes the heat cooking the HDMI board and other parts. Disable Audyssey by doing a factory reset and see for yourself how much the heat drops. Simply turning off Audyssey does nothing. It still runs once you use the calibration Mike until you do a factory reset. Many people don't know about this.
Do you have a link?
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post #23735 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 02:00 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
The 605 was released before the 805...so it's a little older...by few weeks. ...Or maybe not.

* I gave away my 805 a long time ago, to one of my brothers (he's still using it, and still working).

Today, in the year two thousand and seventeen, AV receivers weighting over fifty pounds are rare, very.
So the 805 still has heft to it, it doesn't feel empty; it's for strong men who can lift heavy weights and position them in their racks.
Back in the seventies stereo receivers, the flagship models, they were well built, gorgeous looking, and had good solidity (weight).

♦ Question: Who has (manufacturer) the heaviest AV receiver today in 2017, and which model is it? ...And of course its net weight.
_______

EDIT (805 vs 605 - which was released first): • https://www.cnet.com/news/onkyo-2007...udio-features/
Official Onkyo 605 Owners Thread
Okay, okay....so my AVR is a little older than dirt....

But something you said got me a bit concerned, and I'd like to address it now...

Why is it, do you think, that AVRs outside of some flagship models don't weigh as much anymore? I mean, obviously, the weight reduction is coming from cutting down on internal components for amplification, so are the newer receivers really skimping out THAT much on power supplies and amplifiers?
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post #23736 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:01 PM
 
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It's just a theory: Money.

AV receiver's manufacturers are saving money by relying on the subwoofers for the heavy lifting in a home theater audio sound system.
Also, shipping costs, and transformers, heatsinks, transistors, capacitors. Today it's all about streaming and computers and DSP chips and firmware updates.

So they don't need to build robust amplification anymore (20Hz-20kHz) for all eleven power amps inside their mammoths, like in some of today's Onkyo's.
The top flagship Onkyo reveiver today (11.2-channel) ... TX-RZ3100 ... has eleven internal power amps! That's like five and half stereo receivers!
But look @ the set of features! http://www.onkyo.ca/Products/model.p...class=Receiver

And with a MSRP (Cdn) price to match! $4,099.99 CAN MSRP → over four grands!
And it's less heavy than the 805 @ 43.0 lbs (19.5 kg) ... by roughly 7.9 pounds. The 805 weights 50.9 lbs (23.1 kg), and has "only" seven power amps inside.

- Onkyo TX-ZR3100 → Power Consumption: 340 W (what!)
- Onkyo TX-SR805 → Power Consumption: 9.5 A
_____

So here you have it: Today's new TX-RZ3100 is roughly four times more expensive (MSRP) than the TX-SR805 receiver, and it weights eight pounds less!
Onkyo is making its money back from all the mistakes made since 2007. ...You know...HDMI board's replacements, wrong value resistors, excessive heat, fans that don't activate till it's too late, weak capacitors, ...all that return jazz.

Other companies are no different when it comes to weight: Denon/Marantz for example, and Yamaha too...they don't build heavy receivers in the near 100 pounds (Denon 5805 = 97 lbs), 75 pounds (Yamaha Z9 & Z11) like they used to. It's more like 25-35 pounds now. ...40 would be a monster today. We pay more for less weight and more computerization. This is the new world, the Internet, the fake news, the hackers, ...all that jazz.

New doesn't necessarily mean better than old. It means technological advancements, for the worst and the better. You need a Phd in audio/video engineering today to operate a receiver. Yesterday (70s), we just connected a pair of speakers and a turntable for sweet music to our ears, and with all the oomph we needed and without a subwoofer.

No wonder Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize in Literature (2016):

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post #23737 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:09 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
It's just a theory: Money.

AV receiver's manufacturers are saving money by relying on the subwoofers for the heavy lifting in a home theater audio sound system.
Also, shipping costs, and transformers, heatsinks, transistors, capacitors. Today it's all about streaming and computers and DSP chips and firmware updates.

So they don't need to build robust amplification anymore (20Hz-20kHz) for all eleven power amps inside their mammoths, like in some of today's Onkyo's.
The top flagship Onkyo reveiver today (11.2-channel) ... TX-RZ3100 ... has eleven internal power amps! That's like five and half stereo receivers!
But look @ the set of features! http://www.onkyo.ca/Products/model.p...class=Receiver

And with a MSRP (Cdn) price to match! $4,099.99 CAN MSRP → over four grands!
And it's less heavy than the 805 @ 43.0 lbs (19.5 kg) ... by roughly 7.9 pounds. The 805 weights 50.9 lbs (23.1 kg), and has "only" seven power amps inside.

- Onkyo TX-ZR3100 → Power Consumption: 340 W (what!)
- Onkyo TX-SR805 → Power Consumption: 9.5 A
_____

So here you have it: Today's new TX-RZ3100 is roughly four times more expensive (MSRP) than the TX-SR805 receiver, and it weights eight pounds less!
Onkyo is making its money back from all the mistakes made since 2007. ...You know...HDMI board's replacements, wrong value resistors, excessive heat, fans that don't activate till it's too late, weak capacitors, ...all that return jazz.

Other companies are no different when it comes to weight: Denon/Marantz for example, and Yamaha too...they don't build heavy receivers in the near 100 pounds (Denon 5805 = 97 lbs), 75 pounds (Yamaha Z9 & Z11) like they used to. It's more like 25-35 pounds now. ...40 would be a monster today. We pay more for less weight and more computerization. This is the new world, the Internet, the fake news, the hackers, ...all that jazz.

New doesn't necessarily mean better than old. It means technological advancements, for the worst and the better. You need a Phd in audio/video engineering today to operate a receiver. Yesterday (70s), we just connected a pair of speakers and a turntable for sweet music to our ears, and with all the oomph we needed and without a subwoofer.

No wonder Bob Dylan won the Nobel Prize in Literature (2016):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHMBs5yZDEc
What would be your recommendation for me, then, moving forward with electronics upgrades (once I decide to upgrade the 605)...would you say I should get a somewhat affordable AVR and add a power amp to power my Polk RTi12s up front or the front three channels in the front stage while using the AVR's amps to power the surrounds?
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post #23738 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:16 PM
 
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This is AVS Forum here; you have all the best recommendations.

Buy a Yamaha receiver. For speakers go out there and audition them all. For a sub: Rythmik. ..Or SVS. ...Or HSU.
C'mon now, you know better than I.
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post #23739 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:19 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
This is AVS Forum here; you have all the best recommendations.

Buy a Yamaha receiver. For speakers go out there and audition them all. For a sub: Rythmik. ..Or SVS. ...Or HSU.
C'mon now, you know better than I.
WHAT!?

Bob, are you still hung over from New Year's revelries? I am talking about what to power my FRONT SOUNDSTAGE with if I move to a different Onkyo that supports Atmos and DTS:X...I ALREADY HAVE speakers (the Polk RTi12s) and wanted to know what you would suggest powering THEM with should I get a new AVR to power the surrounds...
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post #23740 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:32 PM
 
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Yes, a solid Yamaha receiver (4Ω capable) and a solid Rythmik servo subwoofer and you don't need to drive your front Polk speakers full range.
This is 2017, live with new exciting changes. Leave Onkyo behind and embark on a new odyssey with Yamaha and Rythmik.
You can keep your Polk speakers, cross them @ 80Hz, and everything will be alright.

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post #23741 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Do you have a link?
There's no link to my findings. I discovered the information by doing my own testing with and without the Audyssey processor. I posted my findings about this years ago in this thread.

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post #23742 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 03:41 PM
 
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Yes, a solid Yamaha receiver (4Ω capable) and a solid Rythmik servo subwoofer and you don't need to drive your front Polk speakers full range.
This is 2017, live with new exciting changes. Leave Onkyo behind and embark on a new odyssey with Yamaha and Rythmik.
You can keep your Polk speakers, cross them @ 80Hz, and everything will be alright.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zcw9avT3VTc
LOL...I see...

Well, of course I would never be driving my RTi12s full range; I would always have sub in the mix for HT, as I do now, and I definitely want to upgrade my sub to an SVS or Rythmik...

You wouldn't recommend ANY new Onkyo AVR...even to power surround channels? What I'm proposing is this:

Driving my front soundstage, or just the RTi12s, with a power amp
Letting a new receiver power the surround channels

You don't think this is viable?
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post #23743 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 05:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel View Post
There's no link to my findings. I discovered the information by doing my own testing with and without the Audyssey processor. I posted my findings about this years ago in this thread.
I see. Did other members confirm with you about the same results?
And, is it mentioned in the official Audyssey thead? ...Part One, Two, ...?
* Useful links would be reference to those posts, the section of the thread(s) where/when the discussion(s) took place. ...Here, and, maybe over there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
LOL...I see...

Well, of course I would never be driving my RTi12s full range; I would always have sub in the mix for HT, as I do now, and I definitely want to upgrade my sub to an SVS or Rythmik...

You wouldn't recommend ANY new Onkyo AVR...even to power surround channels? What I'm proposing is this:

Driving my front soundstage, or just the RTi12s, with a power amp
Letting a new receiver power the surround channels

You don't think this is viable?
Yes you've read me right; there was a touch of truth mixed with good humor in my previous post(s).

Seriously, I have no clue which brand of receivers are among the best in 2017; it is simply too early in the year. '-)

Maybe Arcam, with Dirac Live? /// Maybe Anthem, with ARC? /// Maybe Yamaha, with YPAO? /// Maybe Denon/Marantz, with Audyssey (XT32)? /// Pioneer Elite, with MCACC Pro and Class Dᵌ ? /// Onkyo/Integra, with AccuEQ Room Calibration + ✓ (w/ AccuReflex), and THX® Select2™ Plus certification? /// NAD, with Audyssey MultEQ XT? /// Cambridge Audio, with Audyssey 2EQ (no way), and Anagram Technologies Adaptive Time Filtering, which upsamples incoming digital audio signals and applies jitter suppression before passing the results along to the receiver's DACs? /// Sony ES, with Advanced Digital Cinema Auto Calibration with Auto Phase Matching (APM) and Speaker Relocation?

It is so complex today that the final choice is up to the buyer and to the set of features that attracts her the most.
I mentioned Yamaha before because it's a company with a good solid reputation, solid products, good performance all around with natural sound.
But Yamaha had its problems in the past, with some of their video processors; no more now.

And some people simply keep using their old faithful Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver from the 2007's dynasty (ten years ago).
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post #23744 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
I see. Did other members confirm with you about the same results?
And, is it mentioned in the official Audyssey thead? ...Part One, Two, ...?
* Useful links would be reference to those posts, the section of the thread(s) where/when the discussion(s) took place. ...Here, and, maybe over there.



Yes you've read me right; there was a touch of truth mixed with good humor in my previous post(s).

Seriously, I have no clue which brand of receivers are among the best in 2017; it is simply too early in the year. '-)

Maybe Arcam, with Dirac Live? /// Maybe Anthem, with ARC? /// Maybe Yamaha, with YPAO? /// Maybe Denon/Marantz, with Audyssey (XT32)? /// Pioneer Elite, with MCACC Pro and Class Dᵌ ? /// Onkyo/Integra, with AccuEQ Room Calibration + ✓ (w/ AccuReflex), and THX® Select2™ Plus certification? /// NAD, with Audyssey MultEQ XT? /// Cambridge Audio, with Audyssey 2EQ (no way), and Anagram Technologies Adaptive Time Filtering, which upsamples incoming digital audio signals and applies jitter suppression before passing the results along to the receiver's DACs? /// Sony ES, with Advanced Digital Cinema Auto Calibration with Auto Phase Matching (APM) and Speaker Relocation?

It is so complex today that the final choice is up to the buyer and to the set of features that attracts her the most.
I mentioned Yamaha before because it's a company with a good solid reputation, solid products, good performance all around with natural sound.
But Yamaha had its problems in the past, with some of their video processors; no more now.

And some people simply keep using their old faithful Onkyo TX-SR805 receiver from the 2007's dynasty (ten years ago).
At the time that I posted my findings about the 805 getting extremely hot with Audyssey engaged and running sooooo much cooler without it. I don't think many people tried it because most people just run Audyssey and seem to like it. In my somewhat complicated system it doesn't do well so I have always left it off. There isn't any talk at the Audyssey forum and the processor causing heat in the 805. But just like a computer the more processors that are running the more heat is generated. With Audyssey completely turned off by doing a factory reset the top of my AVR is barely warm to the touch. With my custom cooling fans blowing over it there's no heat at all.

At one time I did an Audyssey calibration and listened for about 4 hours. You could smell the hot metal and plastic parts in the AVR from my LP. You could barely leave your hand on top of the AVR it was so hot. Even with the external fans running. I did a factory reset which completely disables the processor and the heat disappeared. It works. Try it if you want to remove 3/4 of the heat from your 805.

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post #23745 of 23795 Old 01-02-2017, 06:32 PM
 
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1. I cannot try it as I don't have it anymore.
2. I believe you, it makes sense: one of the three DSP chips having the Audyssey algorithm has to process the data and that, will make it run warmer.
3. I agree; most people with the 805 want to have Audyssey On.

And to repeat what I've said earlier; the HDMI video board...that too runs hot without adequate cooling (no heatsink on top of the video processor chip).

All in all the 805 might have a decent power section (THX Ultra2 certification), but the two capacitors are small, and the entire unit needs adequate ventilation on top by adding external (or internal) fans. Onkyo tried to compromise, and for many owners it meant additional purchase of fans, turning the video Off, and other settings in order to diminish the heat...including turning Audyssey Off. Also, there was that famous resistor without the proper value, and when the front panel display was fully illuminated (highest setting), that resistor would burn out and needed to be replaced by another one with a larger value. There was also the DTS bomb, from one of the three DSP chips.

Etc., etc., etc. This is all behind now, somewhere lost in this thread, from the old days of Onkyo's glory and fatality. C'est la vie.
No more Audyssey MultEQ (up to XT32) today with Onkyo/Integra receivers and pre/pros; it's now AccuEQ with AccuReflex.

Edit: The 805 also came with Onkyo's own "hockey puck" style mic. It wasn't a real good mic because of its reflective surface right near its main condenser. So it wasn't performing a good overall Audyssey calibration (EQ). Only the next year after (2008) with the newer Onkyo models that they got a better mic; Audyssey's own "pyramid" style mic. I mentioned this in my edit here because that too is an important point.

* I see other manufacturers; Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, ...using that type of flat mic, and I don't think it helps. A better mic would be like one provided with Anthem products having ARC. Or @ the very least the plastic 'pyramid' Audyssey mic.
Dirac Live also uses a better mic; a more serious mic for more serious audio people...UMIK-1 USB calibrated Measurement Microphone.

The two manufacturers with a more serious touch today, in my book, are . . . Anthem and Arcam.
If you provide a room EQ correction in your products, a good one, then supply a good mic to go along with it. It shows how serious a company is about sound quality. That's my opinion, and not the audio bible written in stones, like the ten audio commandments/rules/laws.

I would love to see Yamaha using a "serious" mic with their pre/pro and receivers.
And look @ Onkyo's AccuEQ mic today, in collaboration with Dolby.
Pioneer Elite receivers...

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-03-2017 at 01:11 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #23746 of 23795 Old 01-03-2017, 01:52 PM
 
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The 805's mic was poorly designed, and not giving good results.


_____

Now ten years later with the Onkyo flagship receiver, TX-RZ3100 (four grands in Canada), here's their AccuEQ mic:



Nothing has improved; to the contrary, Onkyo has abandoned Audyssey.
And Onkyo and Pioneer have joined forces now. And that AccuEQ room correction was done conjointly in collaboration with Dolby.
The top Pioneer Elite receivers don't have a better mic than Onkyo/Integra receivers and pre/pros.
_____

Yamaha's own mic, I believe, has a flat triangular shape, that comes with their top pre/pro, the CX-A5100?


_____

Sony ES receiver's mics?

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-03-2017 at 10:04 PM. Reason: slight typo
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post #23747 of 23795 Old 01-03-2017, 02:08 PM
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@NorthSky : The two Onkyo mics look very similar. And other than the triangular look to the YPAO room correction, it is almost the same I am sure some of the guts are slightly newer technology on the receive end. The only difference is their room correction algorithm some of them proprietary and this with most mfrs; Onkyo, Anthem, Yamaha, etc.
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post #23748 of 23795 Old 01-03-2017, 02:56 PM
 
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Hi tanman, yes I understand that very well.

Here's the Anthem mic:




And a recommended mic to use with Dirac Live (Arcam receivers):



https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1
______

Those mics are inexpensive, and they have a solidity to them plus a serious look for the job.

Audyssey is now improved; with manual adjustments (MultEQ XT32 Platinum), with an app for that purpose.
I would like to see Denon/Marantz offering a solider mic, made of metal, for their top tier receivers (and two pre/pros from Marantz), similar to the ones above. ...Same for Yamaha.
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post #23749 of 23795 Old 01-03-2017, 04:23 PM
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I noticed this one the other day... don't know its quality...

https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Audys.../dp/B002AKKL1G
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Are you talking' to me?
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post #23750 of 23795 Old 01-03-2017, 04:39 PM
 
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Originally Posted by grubavs View Post
I noticed this one the other day... don't know its quality...

https://www.amazon.com/Marantz-Audys.../dp/B002AKKL1G
Yeah, but as you already know you cannot use this Audyssey mic with the 805; it's not calibrated for it, only the Onkyo's own "hockey puck" is.
And it's a better mic than the one that came with the 805. I believe it's roughly +/-2dB accurate.

grubavs, are you into 4K?
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post #23751 of 23795 Old 01-04-2017, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Yeah, but as you already know you cannot use this Audyssey mic with the 805; it's not calibrated for it, only the Onkyo's own "hockey puck" is.
And it's a better mic than the one that came with the 805. I believe it's roughly +/-2dB accurate.

grubavs, are you into 4K?
I love looking at 4k stuff, but I'm afraid I made a commitment to my wife when I bought the 805 that I wouldn't spend any more of her hard-earned moneys to replace working entertainment electronics. There's even a BIG note about it on the fridge door Good news? The 805 is still a great receiver. Bad news? I missed out on 3D, and now missing out on 4K & OLED

She can see the difference, however, so there is still hope

Are you talking' to me?
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post #23752 of 23795 Old 01-04-2017, 06:08 PM
 
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Yesterday I was looking briefly @ the stats of this thread (Onkyo 805):
- Replies (posts): 23,750
- Views (visits): 2,689,637

...And you are the top leader. ...And Dave's second.

• grubavs: 1,003 posts
• Smarty-pants: 629 posts

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-04-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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post #23753 of 23795 Old 01-04-2017, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Yesterday I was looking briefly @ the stats of this thread (Onkyo 805):
- Replies (posts): 23,750
- Views (visits): 2,689,637

...And you are the top leader. ...And Dave's second.

• grubavs: 1,003 posts
• Smarty-pants: 629 posts
Holy Cr@p!
I guess I probably over did it with my RTFI/RTFM comments...

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post #23754 of 23795 Old 01-04-2017, 06:40 PM
 
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That's 25% of your total activity in the 805's thread alone. You are the most dedicated/loyal 805's source of information provider.

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-04-2017 at 08:44 PM.
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post #23755 of 23795 Old 01-07-2017, 12:19 AM
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Step 3: PUll out the cable on the right side<br><br><br>
Step 4: Push on the white cable retainer in the direction toward the PCB. Then gently pull out the cables. Take note of the orientation of the polarity so you don't plug it back in the opposite polarity.
As a newbie who just found this forum through Google, I just want to thank @cambrian for post #17338 over 8 years ago as I did this just before New Year's and it breathed life back into my nearly 10-year old receiver again! Hopefully this holds off needing me to replace it for another few more years.

One other thing this helped me fix is that going through setup no longer displays the on-screen menu on my TV for some reason. So without this display fix, I wouldn't have been able to change my source setup or configuration anymore. Has anyone else seen the same problem with the setup menu no longer displaying to the TV anymore?
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post #23756 of 23795 Old 01-07-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by IntelliVolume View Post
Thanks for your feedback regarding your 805; my 605 is still going strong, too, and I wish I could have splurged for that monster of an AVR that was the 805...

Do you find it powers your speakers just fine without the need for an external amp?
Klipsch speakers are so efficient that the 805 drives them easily. I've never come close to full volume. Volume max setting for the 805 is 80. For music a 55 is more than loud enough. For movies in surround mode I use the 68-70 setting. I do have the KLF-30s bi-amped using output from Zone 2. Makes a difference.
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post #23757 of 23795 Old 01-07-2017, 01:50 PM
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hi,

can someone tell me how to update the trx-805,what do you need for it to update the firmware and cores(dsp).
its never been updated.
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post #23758 of 23795 Old 01-07-2017, 01:55 PM
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hi,

can someone tell me how to update the trx-805,what do you need for it to update the firmware and cores(dsp).
its never been updated.
i mean my tx-sr 805
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post #23759 of 23795 Old 01-08-2017, 09:09 AM
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i mean my tx-sr 805
Go to the first post on this thread, second section... should at least let you know how. The actual doing it might be challenging due to required parts & instruction requirements from 8+ years ago...

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post #23760 of 23795 Old 01-08-2017, 09:14 AM
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I thought there were versions that did not require the home-brew dongle in order to do those updates? If so maybe he doesn't need it.
Or was it also what level firmware currently installed.

My unit required the dongle the first time but I think it is no longer required, assuming there was additional updates.

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