Denon AVR-5800 obsolete already? Dolby Pro-Logic 2 is coming...... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 06-20-2000, 11:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Article 1
http://db.widescreenreview.com/weekn...d=36598&-find=

Article 2

http://www.widescreenreview.com/todaynews/052100.html

I give up. But as always interesting to see Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc stance with there future proof upgradable products.

Spero D.


[This message has been edited by Spizz (edited June 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Spizz (edited June 21, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Spizz (edited June 21, 2000).]

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post #2 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 12:23 AM
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It will be interesting to see if the 'upgradable' Onkyo TX-DS989 receiver will be able to load and process this new Dolby Pro Logic II software along will with the new DTS 6.1 software. Unfortunately it doesn't look like the Denon AVR-5800 will be software upgradable at all.

Scott
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post #3 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 05:21 AM
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Two comments:

1) A new ProLogic - big hairy deal. Does anyone really care about ProLogic any more? Why? This is like reading about a new noise reduction format for cassette tape. It just isn't going to make anyones life better.

2) The Denon AVR-5800 is upgradable. From the spec sheet (AVR5800LIT.pdf):

* RS-232C Port
The AVR-5800 includes an RS-232C port for connection to external whole-house control systems, from companies such as Crestron, Panja and others, and provides a software/firmware upgrade pathway.

So, in either case, this certainly isn't worth worrying about.

Mike
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post #4 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 06:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Micheal I know it isnt a biggie but for a new unit this new to be missing any audio format is worrying.

Spero D.
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post #5 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 07:02 AM
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This is a 6:2:6 format. Will there ever be 6 channel matrixed sound tracks? Will the surround channels be bandwidth limited? Will this be cheaper to implement and screw up discrete multi-channel sound?

If they produce no 6 channel downmixes, this will be used for existing 2 channel audio. Lexicon already has a killer 7 channel mode for 2 channel stereo or 4:2:4 encoded DPL. Dolby is late to the dance.
Don O

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post #6 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 10:04 AM
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It sounds like Jim Fosgate has licensed 6-Axis processing to Dolby. 6-Axis is a seven channel system used on the Citation 7.0 processor and in earlier incarnations on the Fosgate 3A. It is center, front and left, two sides and two rears, although you can use it with only two rears. It sounds like the Dolby version is simplified to use one rear speaker instead of two.
Think of it as an analog version of Lexicon's Logic 7.

As an owner of both a Fosgate 3A and a Citation 7.0, I can tell you that it works and works very well. It absolutely kills normal Prologic and also works well for two channel music. You get full range stereo surround in the sides and rears and the steering does do a remarkable job of sounding like Dolby Digital.

In fact, for some sources it sounds better as it doesn't use compression.

I think this is great, especially if you watch a lot of cable and older movies or (shudder) VHS. Star Wars 1 sounds great in 6-Axis.

Assuming it is what I think it is, I may finally have found a way to simplify my system. A pre/pro with DD/DTS/EX and 6-Axis would be a real killer. Give it 7.1 channel inputs and decent bass management and I'd buy one in a shot.

And I'm really cheap.

Steve

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post #7 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 11:56 AM
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Isn't Denon kinda including this with the 5800 as "DTS Neo", which sounds like it works like 6-axis? If so, the big question would be, how well versus the Fosgate/Dolby 6-axis method?

Tom
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post #8 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 12:37 PM
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Spizz,

An old broadcast TV engineer with whom I worked many years ago observed that "as long as something is being used for any purpose, even if not for its original purpose, it is not obsolete."

-Dave

HiDefDave

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post #9 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 12:40 PM
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Spizz,

You have all the dirt dont you?

Hope all the new formats come out before I have to upgrade my Casa Nova to the Casa Nova 2.

Either way I am plenty happy with great five channel not to mention my appartment can't fit a seven channel or six channel system.

I feel bad though because everytime I hear about a new surround format I find my-self loving it.

Why?

Because of the upgrade junkies who have to have the latest surround format and who will probably get burnt year after year for some time to come.

Guess I'm just glad to be with a company who waits till a format sticks before they bother endorsing it. But my machine just runs on different fuel than the Black Box Crowds do. J/K

Isn't it nice to have a modular pre-amp. Just the other day I slid out my analog card blew the dus off and put it back in. The only bad thing is I'm going to have to change out that analog board one day http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif and replace it with a 7.1 version. I can wait till Theta's ready to endorse a new format though or else buy a smart surround Jr. if I have to have EX? (doubt it)

The japanese bastards are going to milk us every year with there throw away units stop letting them F^&* You. Get yourself a Theta and it will pay for itself over the long run! Not to mention sound alot better.

Just an ignorant opinion from someone who almost got the RX-V1 and onkyo integra DTR 9.1 (much better than the 989 but also much more exspensive) glad I pulled it together. Spizz will always be there to reassure me that I made the right choice.

Thanks Spizz!
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post #10 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 04:32 PM
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I would not be concerned. I read about it last night, and it is simply a spiffed-up prologic. It is there to emulate 5.1 digital sound, not to herald some great new format.

If it is in fact 6-Axis, then, yeah, it's a great way of steering analog sound to the surrounds, if that's what you're interested in doing. I miss my Citation 7.0 for only that reason, as I became accustomed to listening to stereo in 6-Axis. But I find basic stereo surround to be just as satisfying, and even 6-Axis could not compete with either Dolby Digital or DTS.

You're not missing a thing.
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post #11 of 14 Old 06-21-2000, 04:36 PM
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Re-reading the Widescreen Review, we find that the system was in fact developed by Jim Fosgate, who developed 6-Axis. Yup, that's it.
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post #12 of 14 Old 06-24-2000, 02:48 AM
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As I learned the following is the case for 4:2:4 matrix decoding.

Fosgate developed and offered as the first the 6 Axis mode, aka known as the 70mm mode in the old days, also in the co-user-brand Soundstream.

Lexicon developed also a steered surround mode, becoming later the logic7 mode.

Meridian as one of the later companies offered in 1994 for their 565 the steered surround mode, which could not be compared, as it was less effects driven, because they wanted to prevent side effects, which can hear from too heavy steering and channel leaking.

Now I am absolutely excited about Fosgate coming to cheaper and especially to all new products (hope many will bring it out?). I can hardly wait to own it. I have never been attracted to Lexicon or Fosgate mashines, but always wanted their better effects feature. This is great for all 2 channel sources and many LDs people still own. Some LDs are said to have great surround steering that makes you feel with 6_Axis or logic7 to have almost discreet surrounds.

I really can't wait to test it for Tv broadcasts.


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Cheers,

Andreas

Cheers, Andreas
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post #13 of 14 Old 01-20-2001, 12:25 PM
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As to Onkyo/Integra, Onkyo has stated in emails to 989 owners that the forthcoming upgrade will include DTS ES Dis and DPL II.
As to B&K, its upgrade (chip) is planned for DTS ES Dis only, but there seems to be some recent doubt about it; no current plans for DPL II.
As for Denon, some months ago Mr. Birch-Jones stated that the 232 was included as a port for 3d party controllers, but that it had a possible secondary use as a pathway for firmware/software upgrades, although Denon had no plans to use at such at that time, including specifically DPL II as the 5800 had DTS Neo.
ALL of this info came from Spero's excellent Forum.
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post #14 of 14 Old 01-20-2001, 09:48 PM
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Jim was on here a while ago and explained that DPLII is nothing like 6 axis or logic 7, it completely blows them away. It is useful to have a powerful processing feature for all the 2 channel material out there. The rears are full bandwidth BTW.

The Denon 5800 faq does say that the 232 port can be used for software updates but Denon Dave has said that it is a typo and the 232 port is only for home automation devices.

At any rate this dplII looks exciting.

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