The "Official" Denon AVR-3808CI Thread - Page 3 - AVS Forum
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post #61 of 20351 Old 06-14-2007, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by GoND View Post

This receiver is an I-link (or whatever the technical name is) input away from me considering it. Some of the prior 4xxx series had it, I was hoping that feature would make it's way down to the 3xxx series.

I guess I could get on fleabay and find a used Denon player with Denon link and take care of the problem, but I'd prefer to not have to bother.

Denon dropped iLink IEEE1394 from all of their upcoming receivers and the new mega-buck pre-amp.
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post #62 of 20351 Old 06-14-2007, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Denon dropped iLink IEEE1394 from all of their upcoming receivers and the new mega-buck pre-amp.

Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll need to consider how important playing SACD and DVD-A via a digital connection is in the future.

Who knows, maybe Denon will come out with a Blu-Ray/HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A player that'll play them all through HDMI. When that happens I'll inform the pigs across the street from my house to go ahead and fly south for the winter....
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post #63 of 20351 Old 06-14-2007, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Guru View Post

Did they give you a preliminary price? I stopped by my local one and the guys looked like deer in headlights. They called the rep and they said estimated mid july but even the rep said don't hold your breath. They never offered to preorder one for me.

Their price (as usual) is MSRP , transaction already completed. The store that I ordered at is a real Magnolia AV store, not a BB. This store existed before Magnolia was bought by BB, I have been doing business with them for close to 20 years (Tukwila WA). I am #3 on the list for a 3808.

The reps at this store are usually very knowledgable, most of them have been there for a while, which is one of the reasons that I am willing to pay MSRP (also using a Magnolia account 18mo SAC) They do price match other B&M stores, but price matching on a pre-order is difficult. They are also authorized dealers with a repair center, they replaced a DVD player with a newer model one time.
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post #64 of 20351 Old 06-14-2007, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoND View Post

Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll need to consider how important playing SACD and DVD-A via a digital connection is in the future.

Who knows, maybe Denon will come out with a Blu-Ray/HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A player that'll play them all through HDMI. When that happens I'll inform the pigs across the street from my house to go ahead and fly south for the winter....


If Denon comes out with a Blu-Ray/HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A player if would most likely have DL3 to use as an option too.
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post #65 of 20351 Old 06-14-2007, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

If Denon comes out with a Blu-Ray/HD DVD/SACD/DVD-A player if would most likely have DL3 to use as an option too.

Even better!

Denon? You listening?

Just tell us all 2008 so that we wait on buying new products until then.
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post #66 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 01:34 AM
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In terms of aesthetics, the Denon 3808 and 4308 are the best receivers I have ever seen. Both the chassis and configuration menus look like they were designed by guys over at Apple.

While I like the aesthetics, I really wish Denon had devoted more of its engineering resources to video (i.e. Silicon Optix or ABT scaling and deinterlace). There's no excuse for the craptastic Faroudja FLI02310 video processing. That was an acceptable price/performance solution in a $200 DVD player a few years ago, but it's no good by modern standards. That chip was never intended for high-definition processing. It doesn't do inverse telecine on 1080i signals -- it can't correctly deinterlace movies on 1080i HD channels -- and it always introduces some degree of macroblocking into its output. Of course, you can disable video processing on the 3808, and I am sure many will.

I haven't seen many posts on this, but Denon doesn't appear to have made many (any?) improvements in the audio [quality] department either. Aside from PC/Mac integration and Internet radio, the audio specs on the 2007/2008 lineup look like they are taken straight from the 2006 PRs. They are using the same Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs released back in 2005, rather than TI's new and improved Burr-Brown PCM1796 DACs.

Perhaps I am a bit biased because I already own a Squeezebox3 for streaming audio and Internet radio, but I expect more from a $1500 receiver upgrade than a fancy case / ui design, Internet radio, and better PC integration. I expect key improvements in audio and video performance. I also question whether one can get any meaningful use out of PC integration with such a small 2-line display (or is media functionality integrated into the OSD with an iTunes-like interface?).

It looks almost like Denon's marketing department determined the design criteria for the new receivers, with the clear goal of appealing to a wider audience, i.e. those who know less about A/V specifications and performance, but make their decisions based more on reputation and looks. At least to me, the priorities for the Denon 2007/2008 designs -- relative to the 2006 designs -- appear to be:

1) Case aesthetics
2) UI/OSD aesthetics
3) PC/Mac audio streaming & Internet radio
4) Audio quality
...
75) Video quality

Until it ships, the verdict is still out on the Onkyo 875, but at least it looks on paper like they had the audiophile/videophile in mind with their design, i.e.

1) Audio quality
2) Video quality
3) UI/OSD aesthetics
...
75) Case aesthetics

Why do I say that? The Onkyo 875 has Silicon Optix ReonVX processing, THX Ultra2 Certification, dual push-pull amps, and Burr-Brown's newest PCM1796 DACs (123dB SNR). The Denon 3808 uses the same three TI SHARC DSPs as the Onkyo for audio decoding and processing, but has inferior Faroudja FLI02310 video processing, inferior Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs (113dB SNR) from 2005, and at least on paper, an inferior amp design.
LL
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post #67 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 02:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnpaul View Post

Yes, comparing it to the 3806 is useful for me as well. I've got a 3300 and a 3805 and a couple of other older Denon receivers kicking around and I find myself seriously considering preordering the 875 and switching camps. One thing that I like about the Denon though is that it has 3 optical vs. only 2 on the 875. It's not a huge deal but with my Xbox 360, SB3 and DVD player I need the 3 optical. I could just use the PS3 for all the DVD playing but I tend to keep the 4800 loaded up with the kids movies.

You're the 2nd person I've had to tell this to.

Look at the pictures for the Onkyo with the front panel opened: there is a third optical behind the front panel. My Pioneer Elite is the same way. I really like this because I occassionally connect my Macbook Pro via optical and doing it over the front connection is very convenient.

Problem solved?

Front Panel Open
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post #68 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 07:08 AM
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I heard from a rely-able source, a few months back (I don't remember where), that Denon doesn't have any plans to make any next-gen players, anytime soon. I hope it's not true. I have a 3930ci and would love a universal next-gen player, from Denon.
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post #69 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 08:56 AM
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bfdtv,

I agree with you on a lot of your points. Last week and for the past two months I was 100% sold on the 3808. Only after seeing all of the specs did I decide to pick up a 4306 for cheaper than the 3808 yesterday. I am not trying to say the 3808 is a bad receiver at all, it's just in my case the 4306 became a better option.

I could have made a bad decision but I will find out over time. At least the 4306 matches my 2930
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post #70 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

In terms of aesthetics, the Denon 3808 and 4308 are the best receivers I have ever seen. Both the chassis and configuration menus look like they were designed by guys over at Apple.

While I like the aesthetics, I really wish Denon had devoted more of its engineering resources to video (i.e. Silicon Optix or ABT scaling and deinterlace). There's no excuse for the craptastic Faroudja FLI02310 video processing. That was an acceptable price/performance solution in a $200 DVD player a few years ago, but it's no good by modern standards. That chip was never intended for high-definition processing. It doesn't do inverse telecine on 1080i signals -- it can't correctly deinterlace movies on 1080i HD channels -- and it always introduces some degree of macroblocking into its output. Of course, you can disable video processing on the 3808, and I am sure many will.

I haven't seen many posts on this, but Denon doesn't appear to have made many (any?) improvements in the audio [quality] department either. Aside from PC/Mac integration and Internet radio, the audio specs on the 2007/2008 lineup look like they are taken straight from the 2006 PRs. They are using the same Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs released back in 2005, rather than TI's new and improved Burr-Brown PCM1796 DACs.

Perhaps I am a bit biased because I already own a Squeezebox3 for streaming audio and Internet radio, but I expect more from a $1500 receiver upgrade than a fancy case / ui design, Internet radio, and better PC integration. I expect key improvements in audio and video performance. I also question whether one can get any meaningful use out of PC integration with such a small 2-line display (or is media functionality integrated into the OSD with an iTunes-like interface?).

It looks almost like Denon's marketing department determined the design criteria for the new receivers, with the clear goal of appealing to a wider audience, i.e. those who know less about A/V specifications and performance, but make their decisions based more on reputation and looks. At least to me, the priorities for the Denon 2007/2008 designs -- relative to the 2006 designs -- appear to be:

1) Case aesthetics
2) UI/OSD aesthetics
3) PC/Mac audio streaming & Internet radio
4) Audio quality
...
75) Video quality

Until it ships, the verdict is still out on the Onkyo 875, but at least it looks on paper like they had the audiophile/videophile in mind with their design, i.e.

1) Audio quality
2) Video quality
3) UI/OSD aesthetics
...
75) Case aesthetics

Why do I say that? The Onkyo 875 has Silicon Optix ReonVX processing, THX Ultra2 Certification, dual push-pull amps, and Burr-Brown's newest PCM1796 DACs (123dB SNR). The Denon 3808 uses the same three TI SHARC DSPs as the Onkyo for audio decoding and processing, but has inferior Faroudja FLI02310 video processing, inferior Burr-Brown PCM1791 DACs (113dB SNR) from 2005, and at least on paper, an inferior amp design.


I agree, I am a current 3805 owner and very happy with its performance and
was looking forward to the new models but was rather disappointed with
the news of the Faroudja chip and the same Burr-Brown DACs from their 05
line.
The Onkyo 875 seems to have all areas covered, superior video processing,
the latest DACs from Burr-Brown, THX Ultra2. It won't win any beauty contests
but all I care about is performance.

Display: Pioneer PRO-151 60" Elite
Blu-ray player: OPPO BDP-93, Sony BDP-S1000ES
Processor: Onkyo PR-SC885
Amplifier: Emotiva IPS-1 150Wx7
Game Console: Xbox 360, Xbox One, PS4
Speakers: Mythos ST(Fronts), Mythos Ten(Center), Mythos One(Rears)
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post #71 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 09:30 AM
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I also think this thread would be better named the Onkyo 875 vs. Denon 3808.
OP?

We could then debate the 875 vs. 3808 with pros and cons of each, and leave the Official status to the existing longer running thread.
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post #72 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwclark View Post

I also think this thread would be better named the Onkyo 875 vs. Denon 3808.
OP?

We could then debate the 875 vs. 3808 with pros and cons of each, and leave the Official status to the existing longer running thread.

When a product is not yet shipping, all you can do is discuss the specifications and how they compare to older products from the same company and new products from the competition. If you want to rename the thread, I think "Denon AVR-3808 Vs. The Rest" or "Denon AVR-3808: Really an upgrade?" would be more appropriate.
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post #73 of 20351 Old 06-15-2007, 10:24 PM
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***UPDATE*** There will be only 33% of Magnolia's (inside of Best Buy) receiving the 4308. Others still may be able to order, but 2/3 will not have this on Plano. Just a heads up.
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post #74 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 12:52 AM
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Probably a good choice by them. I see the 3808 selling alot but not sure about the 4308.
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post #75 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 02:53 AM
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To add one more advantage to the Onkyo 875......it will be price. The preorders are coming in at 20% off, for a brand new product. In a couple of months the Onkyo will be even cheaper after it gets mass distribution. With Denon and Pioneer clamping down on their authorized dealers there will not be many discounts on their products. I am a long time Denon and Pioneer Elite buyer, but with the 875's specs and pricing, I may have to give up my Pioneer Elite VSX82 for it.

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post #76 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 10:14 AM
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Does any one know if it supports HDMI CES function?
Thanks
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post #77 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 10:32 AM
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Great info above. Thanks guys. Looks like it'll be the Onkyo 875 to replace my Denon 2805. I've never really been a fan of Denon's warm sound anyways as I've always preferred the more musical (at least to my ears) yamaha...from what I've read, Onkyo has a brighter, more musical sound than the theater sound of the Denon.

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post #78 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stangs55 View Post

Great info above. Thanks guys. Looks like it'll be the Onkyo 875 to replace my Denon 2805. I've never really been a fan of Denon's warm sound anyways as I've always preferred the more musical (at least to my ears) yamaha...from what I've read, Onkyo has a brighter, more musical sound than the theater sound of the Denon.

Hold on now...

The 875 may look superior on paper, but don't underestimate the importance of implementation. I can't see any conceivable way the Denon's video section would compare to the Onkyo, but there are all sorts of things a manufacturer could do wrong when it comes to audio. The Onkyos may use the same DSPs and have superior DACs, but the hardware and software implementations are still very important.

The Denon 3808 is a refined version of the 3806, which was one of the best receivers of 2006. The initial reports on the Onkyo 805 (little brother of the 875) are very positive, but I haven't yet seen any head-to-head comparisons of the 3806 vs 805. It's way too early to declare a winner between the 3808 and 875 when it comes to audio performance.
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post #79 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stangs55 View Post

Great info above. Thanks guys. Looks like it'll be the Onkyo 875 to replace my Denon 2805. I've never really been a fan of Denon's warm sound anyways as I've always preferred the more musical (at least to my ears) yamaha...from what I've read, Onkyo has a brighter, more musical sound than the theater sound of the Denon.

In all fairness, when you made a statement like that, it should only be based on 'from what I've heard with my own ears'
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post #80 of 20351 Old 06-16-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Hold on now...

The 875 may look superior on paper, but don't underestimate the importance of implementation. I can't see any conceivable way the Denon's video section would compare to the Onkyo, but there are all sorts of things a manufacturer could do wrong when it comes to audio. The Onkyos may use the same DSPs and have superior DACs, but the hardware and software implementations are still very important.

The Denon 3808 is a refined version of the 3806, which was one of the best receivers of 2006. The initial reports on the Onkyo 805 (little brother of the 875) are very positive, but I haven't yet seen any head-to-head comparisons of the 3806 vs 805. It's way too early to declare a winner between the 3808 and 875 when it comes to audio performance.

I couldn't agree more. The problem, however, is that I've never really been a fan of Denon's sound--just a personal preference. I've put several Denons, new and old, against the Yamaha RXV2700 that I had in-house for a few days and the Yamaha blows the denons away TO ME (listening w/Focal 826v's, HSU VTF2 MKIII). Of course, there are PLENTY of people that prefer the Denon sound much more than the Yamaha...again, it's just my personal preference.

So without Yamaha's new line of AVRs showing any hope of 1.3 w/decent upscaling anytime soon, and the fact that my wife is currently amicable to my buying a new receiver (THE most important factor )...I'm searching for a future-proof alternative with a sound closer to my ear's taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANHEDONIC View Post

In all fairness, when you made a statement like that, it should only be based on 'from what I've heard with my own ears'

Yup, but no one's heard the Onkyo 875 or the Denon 3808, so I can't really say that yet. All I've got to go on is past experience with multiple AVRs and trying to postulate where each of these next-gen receivers will fall in comparison.

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post #81 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

As for the whole Faroudja vs Reon battle going on I think Denon might have gotten it right.

One, we still need to see both receivers in action before a final verdict can be made. For all any of us know Denon's Faroudja (possible new revision) solution might beat out Onkyo's Reon solution. I will admit on paper the Onkyo wins here.

Two, even if it isn't as good as Onkyo's Reon will it really matter? I know for some it is a very vital feature but I have a feeling that for most of us buying a receiver this expensive the scaling just doesn't matter at all. Most of us will be sending 1080 signals to our expensive HDTVs which even if the signal is 1080i (cable box) our TVs do a great job of deinterlacing. The only thing having a Reon chip in the receiver does is help scaling SD-DVD. Then again, most people spending this much on a receiver will also have a Denon Reon DVD player, Toshiba XA2, PS3, etc. that will render the chip in the receiver useless.

These were my thoughts exactly! My only SD source will be DVDs and those will be played on the Toshiba XA2 anyway. So for me, my concentration would be on a) sound quality and b) number of HDMI inputs. Those are the most important features to me.

The other concern is that there are already a number of reports from Onkyo 805 owners that describe the sound as 'bright' or 'clear'. Since I prefer a warmer sound, this would be a concern.
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post #82 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Again, I'm not going to criticize the use of Faroudja harshly until I read some reviews on the 3808. However, scaling is very important for me as I watch a lot of Speed Tv (F1, Motogp, Touring car etc) and those are all in SD. And this all goes to my 92" screen. So for me, the quality of the scaler is more important than power. And despite being a Denon fan, I may have to skip this one. Especially if the Yamaha RX-V2800 is going to have the Reon chip as rumored.

The other interesting point is that many people, like me, have their STB set to a constant 1080i output. I prefer the look of the STB upconversion to 1080i as well as the quicker channel changes. When putting a STB into 'native', the resolution changes will always cause a delay when changing channels as the display adjusts to the new resolution. I've always hated that. So for me the video chip issue really isn't much of a concern.
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post #83 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

The other interesting point is that many people, like me, have their STB set to a constant 1080i output. I prefer the look of the STB upconversion to 1080i as well as the quicker channel changes. When putting a STB into 'native', the resolution changes will always cause a delay when changing channels as the display adjusts to the new resolution. I've always hated that. So for me the video chip issue really isn't much of a concern.

I would think the video chip would be a key concern in your situation.

With a receiver like the Onkyo 875, you could set the Tivo Series3 to output all signals natively, and it would scale everything to 1080p60. That eliminates the sync delay on your display, since the incoming signal is always 1080p60. The delay in switching resolutions on the Tivo Series3 is almost non-existent.

For those with Motorola DVRs, such a receiver should eliminate the display sync delay when switching between SD and HD channels with 4:3 override enabled.

The SD scaling quality of the Silicon ReonVX is far superior to that of the Broadcom BCM7038, which is used in the Tivo Series3 and Motorola DVRs.
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post #84 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 02:54 PM
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One more thing for the 875 vs 3808 debaters to consider...it turns out the 875 can be had from jandr at a preorder price of $1299 right now That's quite a savings over the 3808 that some early adopters may not be considering when comparing their similar MSRPs.

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post #85 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 04:36 PM
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With lots of comparisons between the Onkyo 875/905 and Denon 3808/4308 (and not all the specs fully understood), I made a comparison chart of the important items. It's still a bit of comparing apples to oranges as each have some really nice features unique to each one.
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post #86 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcor View Post

With lots of comparisons between the Onkyo 875/905 and Denon 3808/4808 (and not all the specs fully understood), I made a comparison chart of the important items. It's still a bit of comparing apples to oranges as each have some really nice features unique to each one.

Excellent list, thanks! Of course, AVRs have SO MANY intangibles that cannot be put into a list...but this is excellent for a paper A/B

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post #87 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

I would think the video chip would be a key concern in your situation.

With a receiver like the Onkyo 875, you could set the Tivo Series3 to output all signals natively, and it would scale everything to 1080p60. That eliminates the sync delay on your display, since the incoming signal is always 1080p60. The delay in switching resolutions on the Tivo Series3 is almost non-existent.

For those with Motorola DVRs, such a receiver should eliminate the display sync delay when switching between SD and HD channels with 4:3 override enabled.

The SD scaling quality of the Silicon ReonVX is far superior to that of the Broadcom BCM7038, which is used in the Tivo Series3 and Motorola DVRs.

bfdtv, then I guess the question is whether there is a delay or not (audio or video) within the receiver as it sees a change in input resolutions? Your scenario is interesting, but I'll need to have my new 1080p plasma by then.
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post #88 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

bfdtv, then I guess the question is whether there is a delay or not (audio or video) within the receiver as it sees a change in input resolutions?

Right. Until the product actually ships, we don't know how fast it will sync or whether it will switch seamlessly. That is an implementation (i.e. firmware) issue. Other Realta-based video processors can switch format sources near instantly though (<0.3s) without causing a loss in display sync.

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Your scenario is interesting, but I'll need to have my new 1080p plasma by then.

True, although even if you have a 1080p display that only accepts 1080i, the SD->1080i and 720p->1080i scaling is superior on the ReonVX to what you get with the Broadcom part in the Tivo Series3. Of course, I' assuming a proper implementation by Onkyo.

Clearly you benefit most from the ReonVX processing if you have a 720p or 1080p display capable of 1:1 pixel mapping, hence bypassing the inferior deinterlace and scaling circuitry in the display.
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post #89 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 06:15 PM
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I´ve had 3 Denons in a row, but the Onkyo is looking better to me right now. The new DAC´S have better "S/N Ratio", what does that tell me?

I live in PAL country.. is the REON better also at scaling/deinterlacing PAL? I think I remember the mitsubishi hc5000 projector not doing well with PAL in a cine4home test(maybe it was fixed with firmware?), and it uses the reon.

One things missing in the comparison.. how to the remotes compare?

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post #90 of 20351 Old 06-17-2007, 07:21 PM
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Thanks for the info! Problem solved.
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