The "Official" Denon AVR-3808CI Thread - Page 639 - AVS Forum
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post #19141 of 20283 Old 01-01-2012, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by blairy View Post


Thanks kinda obvious when I think about it

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No problem. Reading these threads, it is easy to think everyone is an expert... when really only a few are. Most of us are trying to learn. Just ignore the condescending posts and don't lose your curiosity.

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post #19142 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

I have been looking for some info that I swore was in this thread, but having no luck so far.

WMA Lossless. HOW does the 3808 support it when streamed from a PC running with WMP11 or better? I think that what is happening is WMP is trans-codding on the fly to PCM. Where can I find out more about this?

My end goal is to have a better understanding of WHY this works on some end-use devices but not others.

Yes, since the Denon does not support WMA Lossless, but only WMA, then WMP11 is doing transcoding on the fly. See here for some of the experiments I did to find out working scenarios a while back:
http://gcoupe.wordpress.com/2009/05/...80%93-part-iv/

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post #19143 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 05:13 AM
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Originally Posted by blairy View Post

And there I was thinking MLP meant Meridien Lossless Processing
Obviously it's M.....? Listening Position? blairy

He-he. You're not the first, I assure you. I'd not heard of Meridian Lossless Processing until I got chewed out by a poster for using "MLP" as an abbrev for main listening position (it's in my sig). But I didn't make it up, it's very commonly used on the Audyssey thread where I hang out, and other threads. I am refusing any more calls from the "My Little Pony" fan club attorneys on this matter.

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post #19144 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoupe View Post

Yes, since the Denon does not support WMA Lossless, but only WMA, then WMP11 is doing transcoding on the fly. See here for some of the experiments I did to find out working scenarios a while back:
http://gcoupe.wordpress.com/2009/05/...80%93-part-iv/

For my "knowledge bank" so to speak.....what is that called? I know it isn't a part of DLNA or anything like that....WMP is doing, but why doesn't it work with all streaming devices that support WMA? Is it "Play To" or "Windows Plays for Sure" or something like that??

On a side note, I know this has been asked, probably by me, but wanted a refresher.......will the Denon 3808 stream from a DLNA NAS or does it have to be a Pc running WMP or Twonky??

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
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post #19145 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 02:26 PM
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I know this has been talked about, but there are so many settings and little changes you can make, not sure what I should and shouldn't do.
I have the Denon 3808ci.

My wife bought me a couple of new speakers for my room so that I could move from 5.1 to 7.1 (very nice of her). I was using a zone 2 setup before and now changed the AMP to 7.1 (will buy and external amp for zone 2 now). Here is the deal: The sound is great but most movies are not in 7.1 and therefore the back speakers are just going to waste. Is there a way to make it so that even on 5.1 sound at least goes to those speakers like the setup would be if I just has 5.1 with A+B (which also sounds good)?

Bottom line, I don't want those back speakers just sitting there.

Thanks in advance,
Stephen
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post #19146 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 02:32 PM
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^^
Yes. Just as DD PLII will simulate 5.1 from a stereo SD channel signal, so to will DD PLIIx simulate 7.1 from either a stereo or 5.1 signal. Run AUTO SETUP again so the AVR recognizes the new speakers. Then set the SB Ch Out setting (p. 43) appropriately.

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post #19147 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
Yes. Just as DD PLII will simulate 5.1 from a stereo SD channel signal, so to will DD PLIIx simulate 7.1 from either a stereo or 5.1 signal. Run AUTO SETUP again so the AVR recognizes the new speakers. Then set the SB Ch Out setting (p. 43) appropriately.

I should have posted the questions hours ago. You saved me a lot of time and answered my questions exactly. Now the setup is exactly like I want it and I don't feel those speakers are going to waste.

Do you have any suggestions for an new external amp for just a couple of wall speakers that would, in effect, be zone 2?

Thanks,
Stephen
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post #19148 of 20283 Old 01-02-2012, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

For my "knowledge bank" so to speak.....what is that called? I know it isn't a part of DLNA or anything like that....WMP is doing, but why doesn't it work with all streaming devices that support WMA? Is it "Play To" or "Windows Plays for Sure" or something like that??

On a side note, I know this has been asked, probably by me, but wanted a refresher.......will the Denon 3808 stream from a DLNA NAS or does it have to be a Pc running WMP or Twonky??

I'm streaming music from my nas as I type this. Works a treat.

If it's on your DLNA network it can stream to your 3808.

cheers
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post #19149 of 20283 Old 01-03-2012, 03:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

For my "knowledge bank" so to speak.....what is that called? I know it isn't a part of DLNA or anything like that....WMP is doing, but why doesn't it work with all streaming devices that support WMA? Is it "Play To" or "Windows Plays for Sure" or something like that??

On a side note, I know this has been asked, probably by me, but wanted a refresher.......will the Denon 3808 stream from a DLNA NAS or does it have to be a Pc running WMP or Twonky??

Erm, I'm not sure what you're asking: "what is that called?"

Do you mean the negotiation to select the correct streaming format for the digital media renderer device, or something else? As far as I'm aware, that negotiation process is part of the DLNA spec.

The "Play to" feature of WMP12 is something that is actually an implementation of a feature contained in the DLNA spec.

The "PlaysForSure" branding was something that Microsoft introduced (like the "Certified for Windows" branding) a while back, but I'm pretty sure that it's now dead.

As has been answered, the Denon can stream from a NAS, provided that the NAS can provide the formats that the Denon can handle. However, using the Denon to navigate music libraries on a NAS is abysmally slow and frustrating. I much prefer to use WMP12 to navigate my album collection and use "Play to" to send the stream to be rendered on my Denon...

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post #19150 of 20283 Old 01-03-2012, 07:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdavis1004 View Post

I should have posted the questions hours ago. You saved me a lot of time and answered my questions exactly. Now the setup is exactly like I want it and I don't feel those speakers are going to waste.

Do you have any suggestions for an new external amp for just a couple of wall speakers that would, in effect, be zone 2?

Thanks,
Stephen

I believe that Any amp will do. I used an old AVR for powering 6 pairs of speakers, for a couple years, from my 3808 zone 2, and it worked fine. Check craigslist.

You would use the line level out of the 3808 to the line in on the 2nd AVR. Volume can be controlled from the 3808 or the 2nd AVR, or an old fashioned in-wall volume control.

To keep control simple, you may be better off getting a 2nd networked AVR, using separate sources from the 3808. I eventually separated completely, with a dedicated whole-house system.

But to keep it cheap, until you can afford a nice amp, I suggest a cheap old AVR.

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post #19151 of 20283 Old 01-03-2012, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smdavis1004 View Post

I should have posted the questions hours ago. You saved me a lot of time and answered my questions exactly. Now the setup is exactly like I want it and I don't feel those speakers are going to waste.

Do you have any suggestions for an new external amp for just a couple of wall speakers that would, in effect, be zone 2?

Thanks,
Stephen

As neurorad suggests, any 2CH amp should do the trick ... although if you prefer to buy new rather than used, check out this one ...

http://www.amazon.com/AudioSource-AM.../dp/B00026BQJ6

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post #19152 of 20283 Old 01-03-2012, 07:52 AM
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I am uncertain if the 3808 line level output can be controlled (is variable) in the 7.1 configuration. I used the line level out in a 5.1 setup. I had the old AVR unused, so I used it, instead of the 6 and 7 channels of the 3808.

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post #19153 of 20283 Old 01-04-2012, 02:58 AM
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Hi guys, I am currently using a hdmi switcher as all my hdmi slots have been used up.

My question is this

I was wondering how the denon will handle say:
1. device A plugged into say component 1 (say by default TV/CABLE) and
2. device B plugged into say hdmi 2 (say by default also TV/CABLE)

Will this setup still work without a hitch? I would like to try an avoid using a hdmi switcher is possible. It is not necessary for device A to be plugged via HDMI so I thought I will swap it with device A.

Will this work. Will the denon be able to pick up the two different inputs and display it accordingly?
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post #19154 of 20283 Old 01-04-2012, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gcoupe View Post

Erm, I'm not sure what you're asking: "what is that called?"

Do you mean the negotiation to select the correct streaming format for the digital media renderer device, or something else? As far as I'm aware, that negotiation process is part of the DLNA spec.

The "Play to" feature of WMP12 is something that is actually an implementation of a feature contained in the DLNA spec.

The "PlaysForSure" branding was something that Microsoft introduced (like the "Certified for Windows" branding) a while back, but I'm pretty sure that it's now dead.

As has been answered, the Denon can stream from a NAS, provided that the NAS can provide the formats that the Denon can handle. However, using the Denon to navigate music libraries on a NAS is abysmally slow and frustrating. I much prefer to use WMP12 to navigate my album collection and use "Play to" to send the stream to be rendered on my Denon...

I am sorry it is so hard for me to explain what I am asking....LOL

-Denon will not play WMA Lossless off a thumb drive or a external hard drive.
-Denon will play WMA Lossless files if the are on a PC with WMP 11 or better.
-WMP converts these on the fly to PCM.
-PC will not convert these to PCM for an Oppo.

So....the ability of the Denon to play WMA Lossless doesn't reside in the Denon. It is a service of the PC. This doesn't work with every streaming device. So, it is a SERVICE on the PC that works with some (Denon 3808,PS3, Xbox 360) but not others (Oppo, TiVo). The NAME of that service is what I am looking for.

I guess another way to look at it.....is the Denon ASKING WMP to send it PCM versions of WMA Lossless? Or does WMP KNOW the Denon needs that, and handles it.

That conversion is what I am trying to pin down, so I can look for it streaming products and/or ask people like Oppo to implement it.

Hope that makes more sense.

thanks

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
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post #19155 of 20283 Old 01-04-2012, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neurorad View Post

I am uncertain if the 3808 line level output can be controlled (is variable) in the 7.1 configuration. I used the line level out in a 5.1 setup. I had the old AVR unused, so I used it, instead of the 6 and 7 channels of the 3808.

I have zone 1 set up 7.1 all powered by the 3808. The 3808 feeds an external amp for zones 2 and 3. All volumes can be controlled by the 3808.
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post #19156 of 20283 Old 01-04-2012, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph3ng View Post

Hi guys, I am currently using a hdmi switcher as all my hdmi slots have been used up.

My question is this

I was wondering how the denon will handle say:
1. device A plugged into say component 1 (say by default TV/CABLE) and
2. device B plugged into say hdmi 2 (say by default also TV/CABLE)

Will this setup still work without a hitch? I would like to try an avoid using a hdmi switcher is possible. It is not necessary for device A to be plugged via HDMI so I thought I will swap it with device A.

Will this work. Will the denon be able to pick up the two different inputs and display it accordingly?

are you talking about "stacking" two sources on the same input name, but with different connection types? So both Device A and B will use the "TV/CABLE" name?

then, yes, it will work. As long as input mode is set to AUTO and the HDMI device is turned off, the Denon will automatically select the next higher "priority" input, which will be component video + digital audio after HDMI. You could technically stack three different devices on one source name if you also use analog RCA audio/video.

This is the 3rd question in my FAQ: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html

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post #19157 of 20283 Old 01-05-2012, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

I am sorry it is so hard for me to explain what I am asking....LOL

-Denon will not play WMA Lossless off a thumb drive or a external hard drive.
-Denon will play WMA Lossless files if the are on a PC with WMP 11 or better.
-WMP converts these on the fly to PCM.
-PC will not convert these to PCM for an Oppo.

So....the ability of the Denon to play WMA Lossless doesn't reside in the Denon. It is a service of the PC. This doesn't work with every streaming device. So, it is a SERVICE on the PC that works with some (Denon 3808,PS3, Xbox 360) but not others (Oppo, TiVo). The NAME of that service is what I am looking for.

I guess another way to look at it.....is the Denon ASKING WMP to send it PCM versions of WMA Lossless? Or does WMP KNOW the Denon needs that, and handles it.

That conversion is what I am trying to pin down, so I can look for it streaming products and/or ask people like Oppo to implement it.

Hope that makes more sense.

thanks

Ah, OK, now I understand. There's a negotiation that occurs between DLNA devices when a DMP (Digital Media Player) or a DMR (Digital Media Renderer) contact a DMS (Digital Media Server). Basically, the DMS asks "what formats can you handle", and the DMP or DMR supply a list of formats.

So WMP11/12 is asking the Denon what it can deal with, and the Denon is essentially saying "PCM or WMA but not WMA Lossless". Since I have all my music files stored as WMA Lossless, WMP11/12 then knows it has to do transcoding on the fly.

It sounds as though the conversation between WMP11 and your Oppo is breaking down somewhere.

There was a time when I installed Wireshark to look at these messages in detail, when I was helping a developer test out his music server application, but that's in the dim and distant past, so I can't be of much further help I'm afraid.

Perhaps someone else with more knowledge can chime in?

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post #19158 of 20283 Old 01-07-2012, 07:48 PM
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From my reading of the wikipedia article on Microsoft Plays for Sure at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure

I believe that is the backbone/service/certification whatever is the right term that allows content streamers to "ask" WMP to trans-code Windows Media Audio Lossless to PCM.

Since it is a "dead" license unfortunately, we can't look for it for compatibility.

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
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post #19159 of 20283 Old 01-08-2012, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirk1843 View Post

From my reading of the wikipedia article on Microsoft Plays for Sure at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_PlaysForSure

I believe that is the backbone/service/certification whatever is the right term that allows content streamers to "ask" WMP to trans-code Windows Media Audio Lossless to PCM.

Since it is a "dead" license unfortunately, we can't look for it for compatibility.

But the point is that these days, as far as I'm aware, Microsoft are using the DLNA specs, so they don't need their own certification. Microsoft is a member of the DLNA consortium.

Edit: I noticed that you commented a while back that "I know it isn't part of DLNA or anything like that". Erm, not sure why you are saying this, because it *is* a part of DLNA. You may be thinking of the UPnP standard, part of which covers media servers; but the DLNA specs build on top of the much broader UPnP specs to focus on achieving real interoperability for media devices.

BTW, the media server implementation that I mentioned in a previous message was Jamcast. This is a software implementation of the UPnp/DLNA standards and supports many devices.

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I'm using a Denon AVR-3808CI and have spent tons of hours trying to get the receiver working with a Russound SS-4.2 switcher.

I have it setup with 5.1 and I have 2 positions open, Surround B and Surr/Back AMP Assign. I want to connect a switcher to connect additional speakers, though the switcher requires that the speakers have to go onto a speaker A or #1 side.

1.) How do I connect the speakers to the Surr/Back AMP Assign and then program the receiver to use them?

Thank you!
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^^
The default position for AMP ASSIGN is Zone 2. If you connect the Russound switcher to the Surr Back/Amp Assign speaker posts you will get independent source/volume audio from analog and optical/digital coax (PCM 2.0 only) sources (ie. no HDMI). If you connect the Russound switcher to the Front B speaker posts you will get any source playing in the main zone (HDMI or otherwise); however, if playing audio in both main zone and the 2nd room, the Front A and Front B speakers will be sharing the same amp and therefore their impedance will be cut in 1/2 (eg. 8Ω speakers will be seen as 4Ω speakers by the AVR).

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post #19162 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 08:57 AM
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Hi jdsmoothie,

The part that I am having a hard time with is trying to figure out how to get the receiver to use the speakers connected to Amp Assign after they are connected? I went through different options on the receiver, though none of them worked.

Thanks!
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post #19163 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candicoop View Post

Hi jdsmoothie,

The part that I am having a hard time with is trying to figure out how to get the receiver to use the speakers connected to Amp Assign after they are connected? I went through different options on the receiver, though none of them worked.

Thanks!

did you run analog wires to the inputs?
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post #19164 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 09:38 AM
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Hi kevinwoodward,

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this.

1. By "analog" wires, do you mean speaker wire?

2. Which inputs?

Thanks!
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post #19165 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 10:23 AM
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if amp assign is set to ZONE 2, then the "Amp Assign" binding posts are now an INDEPENDENT zone with separate power, volume, and source controls. Follow the instructions in the manual (pg 71) to use Zone 2.

the "analog wires" part refers to the fact that HDMI audio (or even multichannel audio over optical/coax) cannot be sent to Zone 2. So you need a "double connection" from HDMI sources to the correct input to get them active for Zone 2 playback: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#multizone

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post #19166 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candicoop View Post

Hi kevinwoodward,

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this.

1. By "analog" wires, do you mean speaker wire?

2. Which inputs?

Thanks!

as batpig says, you need to run them all.
so i have dvd with hdmi, i also run red and white analog rca wires
although i use a mini to mini 1/8inch (headphone style) wire of about 2 feet
with 2 rca/mini stereo connectors

so something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/RiteAV-3-5mm-S...6135288&sr=8-2
and
http://www.amazon.com/3-5mm-Stereo-M...6135321&sr=1-2

or just run rca to rca...
I wanted a smaller wire footprint.

try one source and see if you get it working
make sure you push in the button on the speaker selector
and also set zone2 to source and test from main room...
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post #19167 of 20283 Old 01-09-2012, 01:01 PM
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Is Denon going to fix the DTS-HD Master audio issue?

I pulled out the test BluRay disc that came with the Oppo BDP-83 (AIX Records HD Sampler) and the 7.1 track with DTS-HA Master audio plays silently with a 5.1 speaker configuration using the latest firmware from Denon for the 3808CI. Lieing to the Denon about it being in a 7.1 configuration makes the audio work but that's not exactly desirable.
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post #19168 of 20283 Old 01-10-2012, 03:53 AM
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^rakosnicek, that DTS-HD MA 7.1 track on that disc is designed to not play if you don't have 7.1. See this post on the 83 thread. Would that explain what you're experiencing?

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #19169 of 20283 Old 01-10-2012, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^rakosnicek, that DTS-HD MA 7.1 track on that disc is designed to not play if you don't have 7.1. See this post on the 83 thread. Would that explain what you're experiencing?

It would explain it.

I don't quite get why all of the other 7.1 tracks are allowed to function for some value of the word "function" but this one not. I suppose it has something to do with the DTS spec.
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post #19170 of 20283 Old 01-10-2012, 07:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by candicoop View Post

Hi kevinwoodward,

Please pardon my ignorance, I'm new to this.

1. By "analog" wires, do you mean speaker wire?

2. Which inputs?

Thanks!

How did you make out on this project?
All set?
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