*Official* Denon 5308 Thread - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 10:10 AM
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[quote=visualguy]It depends on what you need. The 5805 has a great amp section, but its processing section is now obsolete because it doesn't support current technologies.
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It is not obsolete. Once there are BR and HDDVD players that decode THD, DTS-HR and DTS-MA then this won't matter one bit.

If you don't plan to ever have the player do the processing then yes the 5308 would make sense.

HDMI 1.3 is way overhyped. If the player can decode the format, them HDMI 1.1 will do the exact same thing as the receiver doing HDMI 1.3 and the advanced codecs.

The 5308 is a big step down from the 5805MKII. Denon made a big mistake with the 5805 in naming it such. It was a giant step up from the 5803 and should have been called the 5905. This was also reinforced with a conversation I had last week with Denon'd Corporate Product Director.
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post #32 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by jnelson2000 View Post

It is not obsolete. Once there are BR and HDDVD players that decode THD, DTS-HR and DTS-MA then this won't matter one bit.

If you don't plan to ever have the player do the processing then yes the 5308 would make sense.

HDMI 1.3 is way overhyped. If the player can decode the format, them HDMI 1.1 will do the exact same thing as the receiver doing HDMI 1.3 and the advanced codecs.

The 5308 is a big step down from the 5805MKII. Denon made a big mistake with the 5805 in naming it such. It was a giant step up from the 5803 and should have been called the 5905. This was also reinforced with a conversation I had last week with Denon'd Corporate Product Director.

The 5805 was indeed a good receiver, but its processing section is definitely obsolete now. The fact that it doesn't decode the latest audio formats and it doesn't support HDMI 1.3 causes problems:

1) Doing the decoding in the players is problematic. You have to muck with audio settings on all the players, and many of them don't really do the decoding well (see all the LFE issues). It's much more straightforward to do the decoding in one place. Beyond this, there just aren't enough multi-channel line inputs on the receiver to make this work. I have a SACD player, an HD DVD player, and a Blu-ray player, for example.

2) The new capabilities of HDMI 1.3 (deep color and lip sync) are lost - your device chain will have to fall back on HDMI 1.1.

All this without even mentioning the Realta in the 5308 (vs the Faroudja in the 5805).

Essentially, this receiver is obsolete in terms of both audio and video processing. Its amp section is better than that of the 5308, but that's about it.
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post #33 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by TRT View Post

When you can purchase a pre-pro and a power amp for less than the cost of this receiver, then clearly it is overpriced and overhyped. I will be stunned if Denon's sales don't fall significantly. They can't drop the price later in order to compete with OEM's without alienating their main consumer base. $7,500 for The Denon pre-pro vs. $1,600 for The Integra pre-pro. $5,200 for The AVR-5308 vs. $2,000 for The Integra DTR-8.8. This will be seen by many if not most as price gouging by Denon.

Denon is indeed charging a premium. In particular, I agree that the pre-pro is overpriced. However, you have to take into account the quality of the product, not just the features and the parts. Some of the money you pay goes toward building something that's reliable and glitch-free. You should visit the threads talking about people's experience with Onkyo receivers (including the ones that just came out) to see what I'm talking about - it's not a pretty picture. Denon charges a lot because the market is likely to bear it - there's no real competition right now that offers similar features AND quality. I am making the assumption that Denon's new products are as well-made as the previous ones.
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post #34 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRT View Post

$7,500 for The Denon pre-pro vs. $1,600 for The Integra pre-pro. $5,200 for The AVR-5308 vs. $2,000 for The Integra DTR-8.8. This will be seen by many if not most as price gouging by Denon.

No it won't, they are all in different categories of products, with quite a bit of difference in features between them all, especially between the two pre-pros. And because of that, there is no reason why any of them would be priced even close to the same as each other. The only people that will see it as price gouging are those who really have no clue, and are primarily only looking for the lowest prices.
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post #35 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 09:03 PM
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I had been thinking that if the 875 wasn't what I had hoped, I would get a 3808 with an external VP. Then I got to thinking, hmmmmmmm.... I actually said that, I said hmmmmmmm. Then I thought if I'm gonna pay $1600 for an AVR, then pay another $2K for a external VP, that is $3600. For another $1600, I could get this massive beast with the gold connectors, power out the wazoo (I'm not sure how to spell wazoo nor am I sure that I actually have one), something like a dozen HDMI inputs, plus noone in my neighborhood would be able to tell me they had a better AVR than I do. Sounds alluring to me.

I would also be saving myself from having to buy 2 different amplifiers to power my 2nd and third zones. That has to save me an additional few hundred right there. Then you get the realta VP.

In addition, I cut down on the number of different boxes I have in my AV rack, I don't have to worry about the handshake issues that plagues installations with multiple HDMI devices in series. To heck with the 875 vs 3808 debate. Bring on the 5308. Where/when can I preorder?
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post #36 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

No it won't, they are all in different categories of products, with quite a bit of difference in features between them all, especially between the two pre-pros. And because of that, there is no reason why any of them would be priced even close to the same as each other. The only people that will see it as price gouging are those who really have no clue, and are primarily only looking for the lowest prices.

The Denon pre-pro is certainly worth a premium over the Integra, but it's almost $6K more, or almost 5 times the price. This doesn't make much sense. Let's even forget about the Integra. The Denon pre-pro is overpriced when compared to their own product, namely the 5308. If anything, it should be less expensive than the 5308 since it doesn't have the amp section and it's almost identical otherwise. The Integra pre-pro is less expensive than the corresponding receiver, as you would expect.

Denon is certainly pushing the boundaries with the pricing on these units. If (and this may be a big if) Onkyo/Integra executed really well on their high-end receivers and pre-pros, then Denon will have some serious trouble in the market with their current pricing in my opinion. The new lower-end Onkyos seem to have some issues based on what I read, so who knows how good the high-end models will be, but it smells like Denon is making some mistakes with the current product line both in terms of the features of the 3808/4308 and in terms of the pricing of the 3808/4308/5308/pre-pro.
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post #37 of 4988 Old 07-07-2007, 11:46 PM
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Quit whining about the pricing of the Denon pre-pro! They are not the only ones asking $7k+ for a higher end pre-pro. And those others are not having any problems with selling them, the Anthem D2's were even on a long backorder due to very good sales. And those other ones in that price range like the D2, are also the ones who they will be competing against. And your argument that it should be less than a 5308 is weak also, you are only basing that on a pair of back panel pictures. You really do not know if the pre-pro is the exact same inside as a 5308 is but without the amps. I'd bet that it is not. You pretty much are making excuses and only just wishing that you could get the exact equivalent of a 5308 but in a pre-pro for less than a 5308, well it looks like that is not going happen for you. If you don't want to pay the asking price of either the new pre-pro or the 5308, then just look to some other brand. Because Denon is probably not going to be changing their pricing structure.
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post #38 of 4988 Old 07-08-2007, 01:29 AM
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Anyone know the actual height of this receiver? In the Japanese PDF it lists two numbers for height, 217mm and 279mm. Anyone know which one if correct?

Any new news on release date?
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post #39 of 4988 Old 07-08-2007, 03:53 AM
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rkgriffin - I think the difference is height accounts for whether the antenna is fitted or not.
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post #40 of 4988 Old 07-08-2007, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stephenbr View Post

rkgriffin - I think the difference is height accounts for whether the antenna is fitted or not.

Correct.
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post #41 of 4988 Old 07-08-2007, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

And your argument that it should be less than a 5308 is weak also, you are only basing that on a pair of back panel pictures. You really do not know if the pre-pro is the exact same inside as a 5308 is but without the amps. I'd bet that it is not.

I'm basing it on the product specs posted on the Japanese Denon web site. If you read the specs (have them translated first if you don't read Japanese), you'll see that there is no significant difference other than the amps. I don't know what mysterious difference could be there that doesn't show up in pictures or specs. Unless they're using silver wiring and esoteric capacitors, but I certainly wouldn't bet on that...
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post #42 of 4988 Old 07-08-2007, 08:51 PM
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I'm assuming these won't be upgradable like the 5805 line was...?
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post #43 of 4988 Old 07-09-2007, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visualguy View Post

I'm basing it on the product specs posted on the Japanese Denon web site. If you read the specs (have them translated first if you don't read Japanese), you'll see that there is no significant difference other than the amps. I don't know what mysterious difference could be there that doesn't show up in pictures or specs. Unless they're using silver wiring and esoteric capacitors, but I certainly wouldn't bet on that...


And you basically are still only guessing. Even if you did translate it, that is pretty much just a early product announcement sheet with no real major details. Nothing is final and available yet, there could still be quite a bit internally that is different, and I'm willing to bet the pre-pro also will offer more settings and adjustments. At any rate Denon is free to price their products at whatever price they want to charge for them, and all the crying in the world over their pricing, will not change that.
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post #44 of 4988 Old 07-09-2007, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

I'm assuming these won't be upgradable like the 5805 line was...?

Well they never really made any absolute promises that the 5805 was going to be upgradeable, but because they pretty much held the overall design close to the same and basically just updated it twice with some rather easily added new features and inputs, instead of totally replacing it with a entirely new and total different design. They were also able to upgrade older versions to the current revision of it. If they do the same with the new models in the same ways without a total major redesign, then they might be able to upgrade them at least once. They have been fairly good in the past of having at least one or two updates/upgrades for their flagship AVR's, and even for a lower model sometimes. So you never know.....
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post #45 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 08:40 AM
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I called J+R today trying to pre-order the 5308ci.

I was told that while they would get it in stock, they are unable to take pre-orders for mail delivery, and that I would have to buy it in the store. Given that I live VERY far from any J+R store, I was wondering 2 things:

1) Is this normal for that model? or is this some weird J+R policy? Or was the phone salesperson confused?

2) Are there any other trusted/reputable discount online dealers who people here would recommend for ordering the 5308?
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post #46 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by yyidus View Post

I called J+R today trying to pre-order the 5308ci.

I was told that while they would get it in stock, they are unable to take pre-orders for mail delivery, and that I would have to buy it in the store. Given that I live VERY far from any J+R store, I was wondering 2 things:

1) Is this normal for that model? or is this some weird J+R policy? Or was the phone salesperson confused?

2) Are there any other trusted/reputable discount online dealers who people here would recommend for ordering the 5308?

I asked someone at J&R about it on Saturday. He never heard of this model, and it wasn't listed in their system, so I'm surprised they knew what you were talking about. However, what they told you doesn't surprise me. I think it was the same with the 5805 - you could buy it at their store, but it didn't appear on their web site for mail order.
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post #47 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visualguy View Post

I asked someone at J&R about it on Saturday. He never heard of this model, and it wasn't listed in their system, so I'm surprised they knew what you were talking about. However, what they told you doesn't surprise me. I think it was the same with the 5805 - you could buy it at their store, but it didn't appear on their web site for mail order.

Well, I called on monday, asked about pre-ordering it, and got that answer. So maybe they added it, or maybe he 'fixed' my query to a 5805?

Anyways, the more relevant question for me is 'are there any other recommended online retailers I should try ?'

Thanks guys...
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post #48 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by yyidus View Post

Well, I called on monday, asked about pre-ordering it, and got that answer. So maybe they added it, or maybe he 'fixed' my query to a 5805?

Anyways, the more relevant question for me is 'are there any other recommended online retailers I should try ?'

Thanks guys...

The usual suspects: listenup, abt, sixth ave, one call, crutchfield, vanns, electronics expo. However, I don't think they discount. By the way, it seems way too early to be able to pre-order the 5308CI. Based on what I heard from a Denon dealer, they're not expected before October, but who knows...
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post #49 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 07:17 PM
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Crutchfields will probably be one of the first, if not the first. Denon authorized e-tailers to have it available on-line to buy or maybe even pre-order. Crutchfields seems to get a lot of the new Denon stuff sooner than many of the other places do. And it's probably because they don't discount at all, other than a few open box units every now and then, if/when they have them, and sometimes also with offering a package deal discount of some sort that usually works out to 10% when they do offer one.
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post #50 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visualguy View Post

The 5805 was indeed a good receiver, but its processing section is definitely obsolete now. The fact that it doesn't decode the latest audio formats and it doesn't support HDMI 1.3 causes problems:

1) Doing the decoding in the players is problematic. You have to muck with audio settings on all the players, and many of them don't really do the decoding well (see all the LFE issues). It's much more straightforward to do the decoding in one place. Beyond this, there just aren't enough multi-channel line inputs on the receiver to make this work. I have a SACD player, an HD DVD player, and a Blu-ray player, for example.

2) The new capabilities of HDMI 1.3 (deep color and lip sync) are lost - your device chain will have to fall back on HDMI 1.1.

All this without even mentioning the Realta in the 5308 (vs the Faroudja in the 5805).

Essentially, this receiver is obsolete in terms of both audio and video processing. Its amp section is better than that of the 5308, but that's about it.

I don't understand one bit why you feel the processing power is obsolete in the 5805ci. It is far from that. Whether it has the new audio codecs or not is not relevant. All the decoding has to be done in the player anyway. The 5805ci is still very current and better than anything else on the market today. It handles all the new audio codecs, has tons of HDMI inputs, etc. Rethink your comment. By the way, there is no sources available today or the near future that has the ability for deep color.
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post #51 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by VTGOLFER View Post

I don't understand one bit why you feel the processing power is obsolete in the 5805ci. It is far from that. Whether it has the new audio codecs or not is not relevant. All the decoding has to be done in the player anyway. The 5805ci is still very current and better than anything else on the market today. It handles all the new audio codecs, has tons of HDMI inputs, etc. Rethink your comment. By the way, there is no sources available today or the near future that has the ability for deep color.

The 5805CI is fine, and it may have sufficient processing capabilities for your needs right now, but that doesn't change the fact that it's obsolete. I wouldn't buy one now since I would want to keep an expensive machine like this for many years. The 5805CI can't handle HDMI 1.3 (so no lip-sync and no deep color), it can't decode high-def codecs (need to rely on player PCM conversion or multi-channel analog inputs), and it has an old video scaler/deinterlacer.
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post #52 of 4988 Old 07-10-2007, 10:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla View Post

Quit whining about the pricing of the Denon pre-pro! They are not the only ones asking $7k+ for a higher end pre-pro. And those others are not having any problems with selling them, the Anthem D2's were even on a long backorder due to very good sales. And those other ones in that price range like the D2, are also the ones who they will be competing against. And your argument that it should be less than a 5308 is weak also, you are only basing that on a pair of back panel pictures. You really do not know if the pre-pro is the exact same inside as a 5308 is but without the amps. I'd bet that it is not. You pretty much are making excuses and only just wishing that you could get the exact equivalent of a 5308 but in a pre-pro for less than a 5308, well it looks like that is not going happen for you. If you don't want to pay the asking price of either the new pre-pro or the 5308, then just look to some other brand. Because Denon is probably not going to be changing their pricing structure.

If you live close to the NJ/NY boarder, you can easily pick up any of Denons products for 25-28% off from any number of sellers. The new 5308 will probably be in the low 4,000s by the end of the year. Denons usually either shutdown right after you turn them on or last for years. I think saving 1,500 dollars is worth the chance.
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post #53 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 07:10 AM
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This link is to a site that talks about alternate speaker locatoins for 7.1 systems.

I was going with 5.1 because my room configuration does not allow me to do the surround speakers on the side, thus no 7.1. I wouldn't be able to mount the side surrounds anywhere except in a walkway. These alternate 7.1 schemes have me thinking that I might be able to do 7.1 after all if I could do one of these configurations. Especially the latter three.

If you used such a nonstandard configuration, would the AVR know how to handle the sound for your particular configuration or would this require a firmware update at some point in time?
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post #54 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 09:54 AM
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Does anyone know if the 2 HDMI outputs are active simultaneously or do you have to select which one is active?
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post #55 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

Does anyone know if the 2 HDMI outputs are active simultaneously or do you have to select which one is active?

they run in parallel so you can have both running at the same time, but not to a 2nd zone. It would have to be the same source.
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post #56 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 11:32 AM
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According to Denon's site, the 5308 will use Faroudja, not Realta.
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post #57 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

According to Denon's site, the 5308 will use Faroudja, not Realta.

That is not correct. The 5308 will have the Silicon Optix Realta Chip. The 4308 will use the Faroudja FL2301DCDi Chip
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post #58 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 11:43 AM
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You're right. My apologies. According to the www.hqv.com site, the only electronics using the chips are:

Onkyo 875 and 905 Reon
Denon 5308 and PreAmp Realta
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post #59 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

You're right. My apologies. According to the www.hqv.com site, the only electronics using the chips are:

Onkyo 875 and 905 Reon
Denon 5308 and PreAmp Realta

Denon DVD-2930 (Reon)
Denon DVD-3930 (Realta)
Denon DVD-5190 (Realta)
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post #60 of 4988 Old 07-11-2007, 02:31 PM
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My understanding of the advantages to the Realta chip over the Reon is that it will support rez higher than 1080. Is that correct? I'm sure there are some other differences, but that is the one that caught my eye.
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