*Official* Denon 5308 Thread - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 4988 Old 08-13-2007, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by gstarr View Post

For all practical purposes there is zero difference between a reciever with 170 watts/channel and one with 150 watts/channel. One could never hear the difference as it is less than 1/2 a decibel difference. A human can only detect a 1 db difference unless you have dog ears transplanted to your head.

No doubt the sweet spot for Denon is the 4308ci. Hook it up with a Denon 3930ci at MSRP $1499 which has the REALTA chipset and you get the best non-HD movie watching you'll ever get. Plus it has SACD, DVD-A, and most of the other ancillary types available.

For those that want HD or Blu Ray with REALTA and don't care about SACD and DVD-A and maybe other ancillary formats, then go ahead. I think Denon's outlook is that people have large libraries of SD DVD's and many people don't want to pay the continued premium price for the HD and Blu Ray discs. I've seen the 3930ci and a Toshiba HD play the same movie side by side with the same adjusted 50" Pioneer 1080p plasma sets and 95% of the time it was nigh impossible to tell which was better.

And who knows how long HD and Blu Ray will last? There are any number of cheaper ways on the near horizon to view 1080p with the best audio codecs. Since Sony owns their own large library of films they may be very reluctant to release anything on a new format. Toshiba has no library of films. What if all the other studios decide to release their films on a new format with all the new codecs at the same price as Standard DVD's, or a couple of dollars more? Will Sony stand alone and let the consumer pass them buy?

Greg

Greg

Nice try, but no dice. No matter what you do you can't create 1080p out of 480i. You can make 480i look decent, but the data just isn't there and you can't create it out of thin air.

Other formats for 1080p? Sony not releasing on Blu-Ray? What drugs are you on?
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post #92 of 4988 Old 08-13-2007, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Nice try, but no dice. No matter what you do you can't create 1080p out of 480i. You can make 480i look decent, but the data just isn't there and you can't create it out of thin air.

Other formats for 1080p? Sony not releasing on Blu-Ray? What drugs are you on?

I don't know what he's talking about either. Even his amp comments don't make sense to me. The difference between the 5308ci and 4308ci amp sections is not just in the wattage. The 5308ci has a completely different amp section with a different power supply and design. It's likely to sound better just like the 5805ci and 4806ci sound better than the 4306ci. Wattage isn't the main issue here.
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post #93 of 4988 Old 08-20-2007, 09:15 PM
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I wanted to resurrect this thread. It seems there are HD video processing issues with the 4308 that I was hoping would have been addressed.

Anyone heard anything new about ship dates for these units? Are they slated for October/November? It seems the 4308 actually shipped a few weeks before they were due, didn't they?
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post #94 of 4988 Old 08-20-2007, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

I wanted to resurrect this thread. It seems there are HD video processing issues with the 4308 that I was hoping would have been addressed.

Anyone heard anything new about ship dates for these units? Are they slated for October/November? It seems the 4308 actually shipped a few weeks before they were due, didn't they?

Depends on who you believe. There were people saying the 4308 was coming in June and then early July. On the 5308 I have heard everything from October to December.

Also sent you a PM
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post #95 of 4988 Old 08-20-2007, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

I wanted to resurrect this thread. It seems there are HD video processing issues with the 4308 that I was hoping would have been addressed.

Anyone heard anything new about ship dates for these units? Are they slated for October/November? It seems the 4308 actually shipped a few weeks before they were due, didn't they?

Denon press release says December, my dealer says late November. Same diff I guess.

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post #96 of 4988 Old 08-21-2007, 04:03 AM
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Judging from the limited availability of the 4308, I'll bet most people looking to buy the 5308 will be lucky to get one before January. Just a hunch.
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post #97 of 4988 Old 08-21-2007, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

Depends on who you believe. There were people saying the 4308 was coming in June and then early July. On the 5308 I have heard everything from October to December.

Also sent you a PM

I was so hoping that this generation of AVR's would offer something in the VP arena that most of us would use, and perhaps they do. With SD still in wide use, I guess the current line of VP chips in the AVR's do a fine job. However, I want something that will reduce block/mosquito noise in HD sources, particularly from overcompressed D* or E* signals.

The problem with most of the current VP's that I've seen is that they aren't really made with AVR's in mind. They have multiple inputs with individual settings per input. If you are running your stuff through an AVR first, then a VP on the way to a TV, the extra inputs and all those specific settings in the VP are wasted. Seems to me you are paying for stuff you aren't really going to use.

I'm sure someday, all this will come together into one unit so that the functions will become seamless, but for now, we'll have to deal with what we've got. I'm sure Denon will be one of the first to offer complete integration of these units into one.

The 5308 may be just the ticket, but at $5200 MSRP it may be hard to justify. That's about $1000 more than the cost of a 4308 + VP. Is it worth that for the added simplicity? I was thinking that the 5308 would give more channels out and it would be justified on that basis, but it seems it is only a 7 channel amp as well, so I'd still be stuck buying amps for my other 3 zones as well. Beyond that, the extra power I'm sure is nice for some, but I'll never use that much.

I know the tech is in place for Denon to deliver. I just wonder why they don't.... Do they feel like they'd be cutting their own throats with a combination AVR/VP at this time? It's not like they have their own standalone VP. They do offer upconverting DVD players for a premium and I guess the 4308 would cut into that business at least some.
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post #98 of 4988 Old 08-22-2007, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

I was so hoping that this generation of AVR's would offer something in the VP arena that most of us would use, and perhaps they do. With SD still in wide use, I guess the current line of VP chips in the AVR's do a fine job. However, I want something that will reduce block/mosquito noise in HD sources, particularly from overcompressed D* or E* signals.



Not to derail this thread but I'm still doing my homework on purchasing my next AVR so forgive my ignorance: Is a VP really going to make that much of a difference for the horrid D* SD PQ? I've never owned a VP or an AVR with a VP, nor have I ever seen one in action. But is a $2,000 VP really going to deliver $2,000 worth of PQ for my D* SD channels? That's kinda like the proverbial 'making chicken soup out of chicken s***' theory, isn't it?

This why I'm confused with all the fuss over which VP the new line of AVRs have. If the source (D*, Dish, Commiecast) is garbage, what difference will it really make? Or perhaps I should ask: How much of a difference will it really make?
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post #99 of 4988 Old 08-22-2007, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steady teddy View Post

... Is a VP really going to make that much of a difference for the horrid D* SD PQ? ... But is a $2,000 VP really going to deliver $2,000 worth of PQ for my D* SD channels? ... Or perhaps I should ask: How much of a difference will it really make?

What you should really ask, is how much is the difference worth to you. If the difference is 3% it might be worth it to someone that's spending $500k on his HT. If the difference is 75% it might not be worth it to someone that's spending $2k on their home theater.

VPs can do a fair amount of improvement but it depends on the nature of the problem of the signal, the quality of the equipment it's being used on and the quality of the VP. Personally I've used a VP and been happy with the results for the money and I've looked at VPs where the results didn't justify the expense.

Sorry there isn't a more cut and dry answer there but as with many things in HT it all depends on your situation.

Erik

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post #100 of 4988 Old 08-22-2007, 08:20 AM
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my sales guy was fairly straight forward (he is also the companies owner) and let me know that denon told them they where making limited receivers for the release dates. denon sent them a letter stating after launch of the 4308ci it was gonna be a while before more shipments could be filled. it also said expect delays with other 2007 models.

just hoping this helps some of you.

as far as video processing goes my denon 4308ci was fine in that area. i had it all hookedup through the hdmi for a week but decided to switch it before my girl went nuts. what a lot of people are having issues with is trying to download firmware. there is no firmware available but it states there is a file available. now after they download the file it is causing problems with the video, network, and sound. i didnt download the firmware updtate and my 4308ci is running very good.

Pioneer 5010FD, Sony 60A3000, Panny 42PZ85U, Yamaha RX-V3800, Denon 4308, B&W 600's, HSU VTF-3 MK3, Def. Tech. bp7004, 2002, 1.2x, 2x, TivoHD, Samsung 1200, harmony 1000, ps3, xbox360, Sony BDP S350
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post #101 of 4988 Old 08-22-2007, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steady teddy View Post

Not to derail this thread but I'm still doing my homework on purchasing my next AVR so forgive my ignorance: Is a VP really going to make that much of a difference for the horrid D* SD PQ? I've never owned a VP or an AVR with a VP, nor have I ever seen one in action. But is a $2,000 VP really going to deliver $2,000 worth of PQ for my D* SD channels? That's kinda like the proverbial 'making chicken soup out of chicken s***' theory, isn't it?

This why I'm confused with all the fuss over which VP the new line of AVRs have. If the source (D*, Dish, Commiecast) is garbage, what difference will it really make? Or perhaps I should ask: How much of a difference will it really make?

To each his own, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and all that junk. There is a market out there for these, though not a sizable market yet. I want picture smoothing and noise reduction. I realize that you don't gain resolution to make an SD signal into a HD signal, but watching a lot of SD, I do want it better than the internal conversion in my set.

I'm really anxious to see what the Realta will do with HD-DVD and BD. There is compression and thus noise with these formats and the Realta is supposed to affect noise caused by HD compression. This should help D*, E*, comcast, and all the HD mediums. I believe that is one of the advantages of the Realta over the Reon. That and the ability to work with unusual cadences and ability to scale beyond 1080p.
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post #102 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by visualguy View Post

The difference between the 5308ci and 4308ci amp sections is not just in the wattage. The 5308ci has a completely different amp section with a different power supply and design. It's likely to sound better just like the 5805ci and 4806ci sound better than the 4306ci. Wattage isn't the main issue here.

I emailed Denon to ask them the difference between the 5308 vs. the 4308 amp sections. The response:
"All the new receivers (3808,4308 & 5308ci) had a major overhaul on the audio output. On the old units whatever source came in its signal was almost running around a race track and then entering into the audio processor. That was scrapped and now the source comes in and go's directly into the processor. The 5308ci will also be THX Certified and in my opinion the 5308 will be the better unit compared to the 4806 & 5805."

By the comments (and the Tallmadge interview), it appears that the 3 new AVRs have completely different setups than their predecessors, but the only only difference between 5308 & 4308 is a few watts and THX certification. I just want to be sure the jump in price to the 5308 is worthwhile. Any thoughts? (I am new here, so forgive me if this has been hashed over already)
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post #103 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 09:59 AM
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Also have a question for any of you familiar with B&K...
I plan to replace my B&K AVR507 with the 5308CI to take advantage of the VP.
How should the sound of the two units compare (I realize this is a very subjective question)? The amps appear similar on paper.
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post #104 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 10:21 AM
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Well at very least there is also a difference in video processing. The 4308 uses the Faroudja chip while the 5308 uses the Realta.

Erik

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post #105 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by erikk View Post

Well at very least there is also a difference in video processing. The 4308 uses the Faroudja chip while the 5308 uses the Realta.


Is it a $3000 difference, though
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post #106 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 12:00 PM
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Well I was kind of hoping someone would step in with the other reasons (I need rationalization too).

Erik

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post #107 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erikk View Post

Well I was kind of hoping someone would step in with the other reasons (I need rationalization too).

Here's everything I can think of, there may be more:

* THX Ultra 2
* Realta video processor
* Toroidal transformer and seperate transformer for the various video and audio processing sections (an extra 20 pounds worth)
* larger caps for increased dynamic power
* Better DACS
* non-resonant "audiophile quality" chasis
* much better "WBT" style binding posts
* all gold plated connectors
* 6 hdmi inputs
* AL 24+ audio processing (upsampling) on all channels


And it is "only" $2700 more for all that.

- Tim


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post #108 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Here's everything I can think of, there may be more:

* THX Ultra 2
* Realta video processor
* Toroidal transformer and seperate transformer for the various video and audio processing sections (an extra 20 pounds worth)
* larger caps for increased dynamic power
* Better DACS
* non-resonant "audiophile quality" chasis
* much better "WBT" style binding posts
* all gold plated connectors
* 6 hdmi inputs
* AL 24+ audio processing (upsampling) on all channels


And it is "only" $2700 more for all that.

Not to mention a stand alone VP will cost around that.
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post #109 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 01:41 PM
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I think that the 4308 weighs around 41 pounds and I have seen online that the 5308 weighs 23.9 KG........I think that is about 53 pounds. If I am right that is not a huge difference but I am surprised that the Yamaha Z11 weighs 79 pounds, which is about 50% more than the Denon 5308. The 23.9 kg may or may not be correct or what the weight of the 5308 ends up being.

I believe that the 4308 is not in the same class as the 5308 at all, the 5308 will be vastly superior in all ways including sound quality, build quality, conectivity (# and quality). The one thing I do not understand (and I wish Denon would correct this) is why the 5308 does not come with the optional remote as standard equipment....and not a $299 option. After all this is the top of the line model and with a price to match.

I am thinking of maybe doing a 5308 combined with a new Sony 500 blu-ray as the Sony 300 will output 480i via it's HDMI output, and I am hoping the 500 will too. Then I can use the Realta to upscale regular dvd's. I kind of want the sound quality of a top of the line unit (to use with new Paradigm REf series) and the 5308 has enough inputs for my large system. My experience is that the Sony Blu-ray players are much more reliable then the Samsung 2400 that I could possibly get for it's REon. I have already had a BDP-S1 and 300 and currently own a Sammy 1200 and there are problems with it.
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post #110 of 4988 Old 08-24-2007, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JKR1963 View Post

The one thing I do not understand (and I wish Denon would correct this) is why the 5308 does not come with the optional remote as standard equipment....and not a $299 option. After all this is the top of the line model and with a price to match.

I agree 110%. This would be a great way to differentiate the 5308 from the 4308. One thing that might be holding them back from this is the fact that the RC7000 isn't really for sale yet and maybe they don't want it to delay the already delayed release of the 5308 (presuming that the RC7000 isn't due to be out until after the 5308 date).

Erik

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post #111 of 4988 Old 08-25-2007, 08:58 AM
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Do the 4308 and 5308 both have 12V trigger switches capable of switching based on surround mode vs. just output and zone? I believe the 5308 will. This would make it easier to trigger capable mono/dipole surround speakers for music/movies.
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post #112 of 4988 Old 08-28-2007, 06:48 PM
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Hi All,

I am also in the hunt to upgrade my preamp/processor.

And I am trying to decide between Denon's 4308 vs Denon's 5308.

1) Is there that big of a difference between the HQV Realty vs the Faroudja that is in the Denon 4308?

My sources are Shaw HD-PVR, Xbox 360 with HD-Dvd, Sony PS3 (Blu-Ray), and SD Dvd from either Oppo Dvd outputting DVI or my older Pioneer Elite DV-09 outputting 480i in Component Video.

I am not sure if this is correct but I heard that the DVD player has to output 480i inorder to use the HQV Realty upconversion in the AVR Receiver. Is this true?

Because if I am not able to use the HQV Realty Upconversion in most of my sources then it doesn't make sense to spend the extra money. Which the Denon 5308 in Canada is going to retail at $6800 (Canadian Dollars) versus Denon 4308 at $3500 (Cnd). I don't know why the Canadian Denon units are so much more expensive than the US counterparts.

2) The Denon 5308 will have the Audyssey PRO vs the Denon 4308 will have the Audyssey XT. Is this much of a difference in the room correction between the two versions.

I do like the fact that there is 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs so I could run 2 zones of audio & video Processing.

I am planning to upgrade from my 61" JVC HDTV to the new Sony VPL-VW60 Black Pearl 1080p projector. Which I am looking forward to having a bigger screen probably 96" diagonal.

Any body have a Denon and Sony Pearl combo?

Anybody want to put in their 2cents into helping me decide?

Thanks in advance for your help; with my future upgrading decision.

Sincerely, BK
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post #113 of 4988 Old 08-28-2007, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwong73 View Post

Hi All,

I am also in the hunt to upgrade my preamp/processor.

And I am trying to decide between Denon's 4308 vs Denon's 5308.

1) Is there that big of a difference between the HQV Realty vs the Faroudja that is in the Denon 4308?

My sources are Shaw HD-PVR, Xbox 360 with HD-Dvd, Sony PS3 (Blu-Ray), and SD Dvd from either Oppo Dvd outputting DVI or my older Pioneer Elite DV-09 outputting 480i in Component Video.

I am not sure if this is correct but I heard that the DVD player has to output 480i inorder to use the HQV Realty upconversion in the AVR Receiver. Is this true?

Because if I am not able to use the HQV Realty Upconversion in most of my sources then it doesn't make sense to spend the extra money. Which the Denon 5308 in Canada is going to retail at $6800 (Canadian Dollars) versus Denon 4308 at $3500 (Cnd). I don't know why the Canadian Denon units are so much more expensive than the US counterparts.

2) The Denon 5308 will have the Audyssey PRO vs the Denon 4308 will have the Audyssey XT. Is this much of a difference in the room correction between the two versions.

I do like the fact that there is 6 HDMI inputs and 2 HDMI outputs so I could run 2 zones of audio & video Processing.

I am planning to upgrade from my 61" JVC HDTV to the new Sony VPL-VW60 Black Pearl 1080p projector. Which I am looking forward to having a bigger screen probably 96" diagonal.

Any body have a Denon and Sony Pearl combo?

Anybody want to put in their 2cents into helping me decide?

Thanks in advance for your help; with my future upgrading decision.

Sincerely, BK

I am not sure where you are getting your Canadian list price's from. The 4308 list is $2970 and the 3808 is $1949 you can view these on denon.ca . These are accurate prices as I saw the price come up the same on the A&B computer screen (had my guy check).

The mark-up on the 3808/4308 are both about 19% over the US price. I consider this to be tolerable vs their old formula of 40% mark-up. If the Can price on the 5308 exceeds 20% over the US price, I will not even look at it...I have told the sales dude at A&B this. Last week denon.ca showed the 3808 at $2225 and it has now gone down to $1949. Hopefully, if the 5308 was going to be $6800 or what ever, Denon will rethink their pricing like they did on the 3808. Yamaha will not (hopefully based on their history) exceed 20% mark-up on their offerings and I still want to see what their price will be on the 3800/4800/Z-11.
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post #114 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 12:35 AM
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Hi JKR1963,

I was quoted the Denon 5308 from a sales guy from A&B Sound at $6800 (CND). But the Denon $4308 I was trying to remember from a month ago. So the memory of $3500 was in error.

But I am sure that the Denon 5308 was $6800 which is still twice as much as the listed Denon 4308 at $2970.

So anybody considering getting the Denon 5308 over the Denon 4308?

BK
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post #115 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkwong73 View Post

Hi JKR1963,

I was quoted the Denon 5308 from a sales guy from A&B Sound at $6800 (CND). But the Denon $4308 I was trying to remember from a month ago. So the memory of $3500 was in error.

But I am sure that the Denon 5308 was $6800 which is still twice as much as the listed Denon 4308 at $2970.

So anybody considering getting the Denon 5308 over the Denon 4308?

BK

Cool, I was just wondering what your source was. I am hoping that the actual price of the 5308 is not more than $5999 CAN. That would be about a 15% markup vs US price. This is slightly less that the 18.5-19.5% markup on the 3808/4308 but then again the 5308 is a far higher profit item.

If Denon wants to add 40% to Canadian price on any of their products, then I am not in the market for that product.
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post #116 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Here's everything I can think of, there may be more:

* THX Ultra 2
* Realta video processor
* Toroidal transformer and seperate transformer for the various video and audio processing sections (an extra 20 pounds worth)
* larger caps for increased dynamic power
* Better DACS
* non-resonant "audiophile quality" chasis
* much better "WBT" style binding posts
* all gold plated connectors
* 6 hdmi inputs
* AL 24+ audio processing (upsampling) on all channels


And it is "only" $2700 more for all that.

Add three configurable (L/R + LFE, F/B + LFE & all LFE) subwoofer outputs.

I think the real way to put a value on this unit is to compare it to other products - pre-pro amp combos and other flagship receivers.

Going by the pictures I've seen of the innards of the european model this thing is built like a tank. I am actually very surprised that it doesn't weigh more.
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post #117 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Here's everything I can think of, there may be more:

* THX Ultra 2
* Realta video processor
* Toroidal transformer and seperate transformer for the various video and audio processing sections (an extra 20 pounds worth)
* larger caps for increased dynamic power
* Better DACS
* non-resonant "audiophile quality" chasis
* much better "WBT" style binding posts
* all gold plated connectors
* 6 hdmi inputs
* AL 24+ audio processing (upsampling) on all channels


And it is "only" $2700 more for all that.

I would probably only concider this AVR if it allows you to adjust the picture on each input. If it doesn't then will definitely go with a deticated VP instead.
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post #118 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 08:56 AM
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That's a good question. Will the 5308 have basically a stand-alone VP's functionality/flexibility. The Realta is obviously one of the big differentiations between this and the lower units; will they maximize that differentiation?

Erik

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post #119 of 4988 Old 08-29-2007, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

I would probably only concider this AVR if it allows you to adjust the picture on each input. If it doesn't then will definitely go with a deticated VP instead.


What kind of picture adjust?

The 4308CI and 3808CI already have picture adjust per input....albeit only non HDMI inputs. I'd be surprised if this model lacks such adjustments. Now scaling per input is a different question.
LL
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post #120 of 4988 Old 08-30-2007, 12:39 PM
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Quote:


Add three configurable (L/R + LFE, F/B + LFE & all LFE) subwoofer outputs.

Wow, hadn't heard that one. That's nice news if you have multiple subs/locations. It would be interesting to see how Audyssey handles that.
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