Bi-amping w/a 5 channel amp - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 21 Old 01-21-2001, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I am thinking about different ways to bi-amp using a 4 channel ht amp....

-One Would be a standard Y-adaptor to a pair of SE cables.
-Two would be one of those monster sub/Stereo adaptor cables that lets one se signa become dual mono.
-Three would be to buy a proceed HPA 2 or AMP 2, maybe a Classe or some amp that has two sets of post standard for bi-amping.

Any other ideas?

How much are Active X-overs and do they help for Bi-amping?

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post #2 of 21 Old 01-22-2001, 12:27 AM
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Nathan,

To use an active crossover, you need to disable the internal crossover of
the speaker, and go directly to the drivers from the amplifiers you're
using for the bass and mid/tweet units. Otherwise, you could get some
really goofy results -- with the external and internal crossovers (high-pass / low-pass) conflicting with one another.

Two sets of posts isn't for "bi-amping", it's for double runs of speaker
wire, going to your speakers. It's bi-wiring, with discrete runs of cable.

Then there's the issue of whether the Y-adapter itself would introduce additional colorations.

Is there any particular area of performance that you find your speakers lacking, that would make bi-amping a reasonable upgrade? Or are you running out of amplifier power?

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post #3 of 21 Old 01-22-2001, 11:41 AM
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I wouldn't recommend using any 'adapter' that has wire in it. If you want to split the signal, stick to those 1 piece metal adapters - monster cable, phoenix gold, etc.

Rob

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post #4 of 21 Old 01-22-2001, 05:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Rob,

What kind of adaptors are you talking about?
Are they different than Y adaptors/splitters from monster cable?

Kotches,

I'm prolly going to buy the martin logan ascents and they run best bi-amped. Still a little confused about bi-amping whats the best way to do this?

Any other Bi-Amp info out there for splitting the original signal?
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post #5 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 04:45 AM
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Nathan read your request from the other post and headed over... I don't think I can help and here is why... I have my Logans Bi-Wired but I could ( Ignorance showing here http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif ) never figure out how to safely split the signal from my pre-pro to 2 different amps... I mean if you use a "y" adapter wouldn't you get signal degradation??? I will be listening also. ( Nathan I have listen to my speakers with single cables and then bi-wired it makes a difference to me...)

Miles
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post #6 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 07:25 AM
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Nathan,

There are two types of bi-amplification:

Passive:
Uses internal crossover of speaker. Split the signal coming out of the pre-amp (Y adaptor used), take it to two amplifiers. Each amplifier then
feeds an input (bass and mid/tweet). When you do this, the bass input really acts as a low-pass filter, with the same slope as the crossover.
The mid/tweet input acts as a high-pass filter, with the same slope as the crossover. Advantage: You don't have to buy the external crossover.


Active:
Internal speaker crossovers must be disabled. Single preamp output is
fed to the external crossover. The crossover splits signals into low
and high outputs, each of which is fed off the back of the crossover into
the amplifiers. From there, the individual driver elements are fed from their respective amplifiers directly.

This is why a said that mixing an active crossover and the speakers crossover could get a bit nasty, with conflicts between the two.

Hope this delves a bit more into the whats/hows a little more for you.

What you've described as wanting to tackle, is passive bi-amplification.

Regards,


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post #7 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 08:24 AM
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Nathan, just a note on your third option:
--I have a proceed HPA2 and it only has one set of binding posts per channel. My amp3 has 2 sets of binding posts per channel.

I have a ML setup and I have my SL3's biwired.

joe

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post #8 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 11:04 AM
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Nathan I must not have been clear... I am Bi-wiring not Bi-amping... so I am sending the full range to signal to both sets of outputs... from the same amp...

Miles

ps It still sounds better than a single run IMHO...

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post #9 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 05:31 PM
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Nathan,

Buy loudspeakers that aren't made by ML is my solution, but you don't want to hear that http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif In all fairness, I've not heard the Ascent or Prodigy, but their other models (SL3, Quest, ReQuest, Aerius) that I've heard don't integrate the dynamic drivers with the panel as well as I'd like. There's
a definite tonal coloration / discontinuity that I've heard that doesn't appeal to me. Of course, I've used full range ESLs for a long time, so it's tough to go back to anything else once you've gone that route!

Seriously, you're already doing the best thing to find out how to bypass the internal crossover, talking to ML. If it's not possible, then you have to go the passive bi-amp route.

Depending on your processor, it might be possible to have the Zone 2 output (if it's capable of 2 zone output) mirror the Zone 1 output, solving the Y adapter dilemma rather cleanly.

Just a thought, don't know if it can actually work.

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post #10 of 21 Old 01-23-2001, 09:53 PM - Thread Starter
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John,

It sounds like Active is a better bi-amping method!

Question: If you are passive bi-amping you get signal interference from Y splitter, and the amp sees parts of the Audio signal that aren't important.
It seems like for bi-amping there is a best way, Active.

How do I disable the internal X-over could the Martin Logan plant send me the speakers this way?


Miles,

How does bi-amping compare for you to say a highpowered single channel amp with the jumpers? Are you Bi-amping Vertically or Horizontally? Have you tried each different way? Active or Passive?


Thanks for the info I guess I'll call ML today to see if they'll disable the internal X-overs.. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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post #11 of 21 Old 01-24-2001, 05:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nathan Ivey:
[b]John,

It sounds like Active is a better bi-amping method!

Question: If you are passive bi-amping you get signal interference from Y splitter, and the amp sees parts of the Audio signal that aren't important.
It seems like for bi-amping there is a best way, Active.

How do I disable the internal X-over could the Martin Logan plant send me the speakers this way?

B]

Nathan,

Passive bi-amping with M-Ls is easy and works very well. Most models already come pre-configured to support that. If you’ve noticed, they usually have a bridge between the two set of binding posts, or will have instructions on tweaking the built in crossover to support this.

I run my Monolith IIIp (p is for passive x-over) with biamping. I use a Monster Cable solid Y splitter at the input connections of one of my amps, running a cable to the inputs of my second amp. No degradations from the cable split or anything, just more power to each half of the speaker. Sounds excellent (although it did before too).

I recommend horizontal Biamping for most M-L’s, the Panels usually need the most power, devote your highest-powered amp to them. The bass, which if you are using a sub, is really not that big a load on a 100+/wpc amp. The panels of an Odyssey should run very well with 200+ watts. Just use amps that can double their output for every halving of the impedance (i.e. 200wpc into 8 ohms, 400wpc into 4 and 800 into 2). Given the impedance curve of most ML’s, good performance into low impedance is a must.

If you really want to go overboard, use the ML Exos active crossover (first disabling the internal X-over), but at several $K, I don’t think the price/performance is worth it. Buy a TACT RCS (room correction system) first, better and more noticeable results with that than with anything else for $3K.

Enjoy,


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post #12 of 21 Old 01-24-2001, 08:53 AM
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post #13 of 21 Old 01-24-2001, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Rob!

Strange that I have never seen a solid Y adaptor untill now.

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post #14 of 21 Old 01-25-2001, 02:54 AM
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For those of you interested in electronic crossovers, here is what seems to be the ultimate and still reasonably (well, compared to other alternatives http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif ) priced option.

An Australian firm named Clarity EQ ( http://www.clarityeq.com/ ) has several products that enable two and three way electronic crossover AND active digital EQ (frequency and time aligned) of the speaker itself.

Way cool. If the TACT TCS takes too long in coming to market (or my budget won’t stretch to fit ;-) then a PDC-2.6 will let me do active crossover (has 2 in, 4 out) on my two way ML Monoliths, and apply correction curves as well. And still cheaper than an ML Exos http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/cool.gif


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post #15 of 21 Old 01-25-2001, 06:03 PM
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John Kotches,

It's funny that you made that statement regarding Martin Logans and the "tonal discoloration/discontinuity". That usually comes from someone who has a full range electrostat speaker http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif Yes the newer models do blend a lot better the woofer/stat panel! What electrostats do you own? A lot of that problem that you complained about goes away with biamping/biwiring. How old are your speakers?


Vern

[This message has been edited by Vern Sharp (edited 01-25-2001).]

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post #16 of 21 Old 01-25-2001, 07:35 PM
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Acoustat, Spectra 22. Full range (35-20KHz+).

Mine are about 11 years old, and still sound splendid with only a single pair of wires, which is all they support.

I'll have to hear the Ascents and Prodigys then -- might finally be worth hearing an ML speaker (Besides the CLS) again.

Regards,



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post #17 of 21 Old 01-25-2001, 09:40 PM
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John, I thought you were an Acoustat owner! I owned a pair of 2+2's I loved the sound that those speakers had! Sounded even better when I got the transformers modified by Acoustat. It still amazes me that the speaker could play so low without a cone woofer. I just got a pair of Odyssey's and Martin Logan is getting better at making a more seamless sounding speaker! The new speakers sound nothing like the older models.

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post #18 of 21 Old 01-26-2001, 01:01 PM
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Nathan I have heard the Theta Miles, one of the nicest CD players in its price range... Plus you can dispense with the preamp and go amp to cd player...

Miles
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post #19 of 21 Old 01-26-2001, 09:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Vern,

You have the Odyssey?

Are they at your house yet I haven't even found a dealer who has them.
Do you think they sound obviously better than the Ascents or the about as good as Prodigy?

What color did you get and are you bi-wiring or bi-amping?

I would love to hear how you have these set up. Are they run through power conditioning or just straigt to the wall?

Your one of the first to have the Odyssey I guess how do you like it so far?

I've sold everything and I'm starting over with just the Odyssey, PM-500, and a Kenwood CD player with a built in pre-amp.

I intend to look for a better transport and maybe try a Theta Miles or a Classe. I may also try one of the Blue Circle pre-amps.

I'd love to hear what you think of the speakers. I'm going to be getting mine in march unless I change to grand piano's which is very unlikely.
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post #20 of 21 Old 01-27-2001, 06:33 PM - Thread Starter
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I called Martin Logan they told me prefered was bi-wire or single wire not passive bi-amping???

They don't seem like they want to disable the internal X-over so it looks like I'm going to use one of the above methods to power my speakers.

What have heard was a top notch amp for the STAT Hybrids?

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post #21 of 21 Old 01-27-2001, 06:41 PM
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Depending on budget:
Innersound ESL Amplifier ($3K)
Marsh Sound Design A400S ($2K)
Llano Design A-200 ($3K)
Bel Canto EVO 200.4 (bridged to two channels) ($3.8K)
Bryston 4B-ST ($2.6K)

More expensive:
Jeff Rowland Model 112 ($5K)
Bryston 14B-ST ($5.5K)
Manley Labs Neo-Classic 250 ($9K)

Etc, etc, etc.

Those are just starting points.

Regards,




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