Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 07:07 AM
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On another note, I don't get anything from the s-video and composite video outputs on my AVR 247 (Video 1 outputs). I've disconnected my component video and HDMI outputs because I have a feeling the 247 defaults to those if they are connected, but I still get nothing on the s-video and composite outputs. I don't see the OSD, and the picture on my TV is black, as if nothing is connected. I've also done a processor reset. Do I have to do anything special to get these outputs to work?

I got the same problem with my AVR 347. It is because it is set with a resolution that my TV doesn't support. I did a processor reset and my TV now show the OSD correctly. The procedure for the reset is detailed on page 61 of the owner's manual.
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post #362 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brutt View Post

I got the same problem with my AVR 347. It is because it is set with a resolution that my TV doesn't support. I did a processor reset and my TV now show the OSD correctly. The procedure for the reset is detailed on page 61 of the owner's manual.

Thanks, but like I mentioned in my original post, I've already done a processor reset. I tried a second one for good measure, though, and I still get nothing on the Video 1 outputs.
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post #363 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleblaze View Post

Is it normal to get a hiss out of the speakers with this receiver? I've tried two different sources, and all speakers give a low hissing noise that doesn't get louder or softer when I change the volume. Even in 2 channel PCM with surround off the back speakers still hiss.

I get a mild hissing from the tweeters on my ascend CMB-170's. I can only hear it when I'm within 6 inches or so from the speaker.
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post #364 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 02:49 PM
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Yeah, I probably can just ignore it.. just strange since my dennon didn't do that.

Oh, and the PS3 plays surround fine for me via LPCM.

One thing I wanted to know however.. Is the +10 LFE boost bug just there in LPCM or does it also not boost the LFE in bitstream?
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post #365 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

The only problem I had with the 247 are

1) 10dB LFE boost (bummer)
2) 720p scaling that cannot be turned off (much less important now that the PS3 upscales SD-DVDs to 1080p).

These two reasons are why I returned the 247 and got a refurbished 745 - which I am loving.

Bommai:
If I remember, you had LFE issue with PCM only, right? I think it worked for you with bitstream. I'm contemplating on sending bitstream from PS3 instead of PCM.

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post #366 of 5256 Old 09-05-2007, 09:42 PM
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I brought my AVR-247 home this weekend and finally had some time today to set it up. I'm loving most everything about it, but I am having one problem. The upscaling.

I am connecting the 247 to my 42" Panny plasma via HDMI output. At the moment I am stuck with SD DirecTV. I'm connecting that to the 247 via S-Video. I can get everything on the screen and it sounds great thru the speakers but there is a 1-inch black bar on the top of the screen and a smaller bar on the right side. This seems to be happening to any SD signal that is being passed thru the 247. My DVD player is also having this problem. The DVD player is being input via component, but it's an SD progressive scan Sony model. It is also stretching the picture to hell when these sources are selected. These problems go away when I switch the resolution on the 247 to 480p. But that defeats the purpose as I don't want to have to switch back and forth between resolutions when going to an HD source.

I'm pretty sure the 247 doesn't have any aspect controls, and my model Plasma won't change aspects when an HD source is detected. I've read in this thread someone with a 50" Panny having a similar problem but I don't think he came to a solution. Has anyone had any problems similar to this? Maybe this is a defective unit? Any help of suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

**Update**
I just tried the same setup except this time instead of HDMI output I used component.....same problem still exists. I'm going to exchange it tomorrow and see if the new one has the same problem. I'll update with results. Oh, and by the way, this unit DID upscale over component. I think someone wasn't sure if it did or not in an earlier post.


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post #367 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

480p is considered 4x3 while 720p and 1080i are considered 16x9 - I believe. Are you sure the Fios box is outputting everything at 720p. According to the manual, the 247 sends 1080i unchanged. 720p is sent as 720p (but still goes through the Faroudja DCDi for color correction, etc). 480i/p is upscaled to 720p. The stretching could be happening when the 247 is converting 480i/p content to 720p. May be the Fios box is outputting native resolution and not internally scaling them to 720p or 1080i.

Yes, I suspect this is what's happening. I'm still very surprised that the AVR would choose to stretch the picture out when upscaling 480i content. I've been trying to get into the FiOS motorola box's "hidden" setup menu to try telling it to upscale everything to 720p, but haven't been able to get that to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bad_pool View Post

When I set the output to 480p instead of 720p the output is 4:3, at which point I can control it with my TV as though it were directly connected (either keep it in 4:3 or stretch it if the signal is 16:9).

But you don't get a high-def picture any more, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garcia420 View Post

See my earlier post - I was having a similar problem with SD channels appearing blank and HD fine with a Verizon Moto DVR and a XBR2. I had Verizon reset my cable box/update the guide and it's been working fine since. In the interim I was toying with leaving the Moto at 720 since that was working for both and the difference on my Sony was neglible. Nice to have 1080 but the 720 was also very clean. The Verizon HD channels are amazing- good luck.

Weird, OK I'll call Verizon and see if they have a solution to the SD channels not showing up when the FiOS box is set to 1080i. Or maybe they can help me get into the hidden setup menu so I can set the box to upconvert the SD channels to 720p so the AVR doesn't mess with them.

Thanks all!
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post #368 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 10:23 AM
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Great thread guys.

I bought the AVR 247 yesterday. I have a few questions and concerns about it. Here's my setup:

- Sony Bravia 40" LCD TV, 1080i/720p resolution
- XBox 360 with component output, XBox 360 HD DVD drive
- Nintendo Wii with composite
- Dish Network ViP 722 DVR, 1080i, HDMI output
- AVR-247
- Dish Receiver outputs via HDMI to HDMI 1 on AVR, X360 outputs component to AVR Component/Video 1, Nintendo Wii outputs to Composite/Video 2. AVR outputs to TV via HDMI.

I bought this receiver because I thought the upscaling would serve my needs and I was attracted to the idea of one HDMI cable from the receiver to the TV.

First off- the sound is great so far, and the Dish Network pass-through on the AVR looks fantastic on the TV.

But here's the problems I'm having:
  • No audio whatsoever on the television on the HDMI input. Doesn't matter what source I've selected. I'd like to have TV audio + AVR audio since I don't have a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker set up yet (only have two loudspeakers attached to AVR). I've checked the Sony and don't any place to turn on/off audio on the HDMI input.
  • Upscaling Sticks on different inputs: I'm fine with the XBox 360 running at 720p. It looks gorgeous. But when I switch the AVR to the Nintendo Wii's input, the upscaling looks awful, several orders of magnitude worse than if I was just plugging the Wii directly into the composite inputs on the TV. Jaggy lines, unreadable text. No problem I thought, I'll just switch that input to 480p on the AVR's OSD. But that drops the XBox 360 down to 480p! Can anyone confirm that the Upscale settings on the OSD are global in nature for all component/composite inputs (rather than specific to each input)? Isn't this a brain-dead approach?
  • The same problem above seems to affect SD DVDs being played in the XBox HD DVD player or the XBox's standard DVD drive. I guess this is unavoidable, but my television was intelligent enough to flip from 720p to 480p when I stuck a SD DVD into the XBox. Apparently the AVR isn't. The result is an image with noticeable artifacting, poor blacks, and mottled dark areas. It's acceptable to me, but a step down from plugging the XBox 360 directly into the TV. Any ideas?

Overall I'm impressed with the sound of the receiver, but it's not nearly as flexible as the TV when it comes to different video inputs. If I return it, is there a receiver that can handle the requirements above properly?

Thanks for any advice.
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post #369 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 01:54 PM
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I need some help/advice

I am new to the 5.1/7.1 world. I currently have several HK stereo receivers that are approximately 20 years old. The one I use at home has just died after over 20 years and I have decided to jump into 7.1. I plan on getting a flat screen (plasma or LCD) and speakers (Klipsch, AV 123, etc.).

My first dilemma is the Receover. I have liked my HKs over the years but am very troubled by all the reports I hear in regards to their quality. I tend to like products that provide great value for the dollar and keep things until they break. My budget is around $500 for a receiver and I have narrowed it to the HK 247, Yamaha 661, and Pioneer Elite 90TXV. I plan on using it for TV, DVDs, amd music all about equally. My music tastes are vet eclectic ranging from opera, classical, jazz and rock.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that the most imprtant thing is the sound quality. Can't I just run the DVD video direct to the TV? I have been reading everything I can and it seems like I am spending more tome researching this than I did courting my wife (who I have been married to the past 27 years). Wow that seems ridiculous to spend so much time researching something that costs $500. I have tried to audition these units but the only one that I have found set up is the Pioneer. All the others are just sitting on shelves.

Bottom line is that I have had great success with HK in the past but the reliability issue really bother me. Maybe it's time to try Yamaha. Any suggestions are greatly welcome.

(By the way my serious music listening is using seperates from Linn and Rogers, etc.)
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post #370 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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The Denon 2807 should be on clearance soon. Try to find that. Less headache than HK IMO. I had the 247 and it drove me nuts because of things I expected it to do but couldn't. And it overdoes things it really shouldn't. Eg. I would have been much happier if it had no scaler at all.

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post #371 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 02:20 PM
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The 247 makes an excellent choice. The quality is excellent. While there are some complaints about the quality and durability, that is true of virtually any brand or model that you read about.

If you like the HK sound, you probably won't like the sound from most other receivers.

Lloyd
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post #372 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 04:22 PM
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If you want to audition the HK try Fry's if you have one near you. The one I went to had 3 different HK recievers hooked up.
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post #373 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 07:03 PM
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Thanks. There are no Fry's in my town but I will try some more BBs. Theones I visited just had the HKs on a shelf.

One other question: I notice that the HK 247 has an upconversion to 720p and I cannot find any unpconversion on the Yamaha 661. How important is this if I am using a standard cable (Comcast non HD) input and using a 720 or a 1080 plasma or LCD?

Thanks
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post #374 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonoma76 View Post

  • No audio whatsoever on the television on the HDMI input. Doesn't matter what source I've selected. I'd like to have TV audio + AVR audio since I don't have a 5.1 or 7.1 speaker set up yet (only have two loudspeakers attached to AVR). I've checked the Sony and don't any place to turn on/off audio on the HDMI input.
  • Upscaling Sticks on different inputs: I'm fine with the XBox 360 running at 720p. It looks gorgeous. But when I switch the AVR to the Nintendo Wii's input, the upscaling looks awful, several orders of magnitude worse than if I was just plugging the Wii directly into the composite inputs on the TV. Jaggy lines, unreadable text. No problem I thought, I'll just switch that input to 480p on the AVR's OSD. But that drops the XBox 360 down to 480p! Can anyone confirm that the Upscale settings on the OSD are global in nature for all component/composite inputs (rather than specific to each input)? Isn't this a brain-dead approach?

I get sound over the HDMI input on my Sony Grand Wega. You could say I'm the opposite situation as you, since I don't want HDMI audio being played through my crappy TV speakers. I turn off the TV speaker or reduce the volume to 0 whenever I use the HDMI source on my TV.

The 480p/720p option on the AVR is global. I am disappointed for the same reasons that you are. Here's hoping a firmware update will change this (since the problem seems purely a software one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by greendog99 View Post


But you don't get a high-def picture any more, right?

Since the source in my case is SD, the output from the AVR contains no more information than if I were to plug the source directly into my TV. Any fixed-resolution TV (i.e. non-CRT) will upscale content to fit it's screen. So if I output at 480p from the AVR I get the following signal path:

SD source --> AVR input --> AVR output 480p --> TV input --> TV upscales to 720p --> image on screen

If I output at 720p I get the following:

SD source --> AVR input --> AVR output 720p --> TV input --> image on screen

So at this point it's a subjective issue of which upscaler does a better job, the AVR or the TV? In my case, I find the TV does a better job so I plug my video sources directly to the TV.


I would love it if HK found a way to include a "bypass upscaler" feature on the 247 through a firmware update, but I doubt it. If the hardware was there, the option would probably exist already.
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post #375 of 5256 Old 09-06-2007, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tefp View Post

Thanks. There are no Fry's in my town but I will try some more BBs. Theones I visited just had the HKs on a shelf.

One other question: I notice that the HK 247 has an upconversion to 720p and I cannot find any unpconversion on the Yamaha 661. How important is this if I am using a standard cable (Comcast non HD) input and using a 720 or a 1080 plasma or LCD?

Thanks

At this point, I submit that the upscaling on the 247 is detrimental. The only situation in which the upscaling improved the image quality was when I was using my PS2 as a DVD player, which isn't saying much since the PS2's DVD capabilities are mediocre to begin with.
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post #376 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 02:20 PM
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I can get the 347 for about 200 more dollars than the 247 and I was curious if the extra 10 watts per channel is worth it? Thanks in advance.

- Bill
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post #377 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 02:42 PM
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The 347 is worth it if you plan on adding a second zone, otherwise I'd go with the 247..
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post #378 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleblaze View Post

The 347 is worth it if you plan on adding a second zone, otherwise I'd go with the 247..

But the 247 has the same multiroom capability (from the 247 owner's manual):

"Surround Back/Multiroom Speaker Outputs: These speaker
outputs may be used either for the surround back channels in a 7.lchannel
home theater, or they may be reassigned to a remote room for
use with a multiroom system. When these outputs are reassigned for
multiroom operation, only a 5.1-channel configuration will be available in
the main listening room. Use the on-screen menu system to configure
these channels as desired.
As with the other speaker outputs, remember to observe proper polarity
by connecting the positive and negative output terminals to the corresponding
terminals on each speaker."

So the main difference appears to be the 10 watts. Will I even notice it? Thanks.
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post #379 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 03:31 PM
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I recently moved and when I hooked everything back up on my 247 and I noticed that on my PS3 input when I try to adjust the levels for each channel independently it wont allow me to access the surround speakers or center.. only FL, FR, and Sub. But only when in PCM mode. I have no idea what Ive done and Ive tried and tried to correct the problem but I havent gotten anywhere. And just for ease again I have a HK AVR247 hooked up to my PS3 via HDMI... No independent level control of speakers when in PCM mode.
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post #380 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 04:14 PM
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The 347 comes with an extra remote for a 2nd zone and a-bus support. It also has an extra coax and optical digital input in the rear. While 10 watts gives you a little more headroom if your close to the max, it won't add all that much volume if that's what you're looking for. How loud do you like to listen to music/movies?
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post #381 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 05:20 PM
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So I returned my original unit and got another one. Came home and hooked it up....same problem. This time I decided maybe it was the TV (Panasonic 42PX50U) so I hooked it up to my newer TV (Panasonic 42PX60U) and it seemed like the problem had gone away. But upon closer inspection the problem was still there, just the black bars were now not as wide. So two units doing the same thing, and the fact that I haven't heard of anyone else having this problem, it's making me think this is a problem with my TV and the 247 upconversion not "getting along". I'm thinking maybe for some reason I'm getting double upconversions. I don't know why because the 247 should be outputting 720p, but I can't think of anything else.

HK emailed me a response, but I can't tell what they are trying to tell me. Here it is:
Quote:
Good afternoon and thanks for your inquiry. Actually, you TV diisplay is
communicating with all of the devices when using the HDMI input and when
it does not receive any data back from the sources connected to it (the
AVR 247 is a pass through repeater which does not have an ID attached to
it like a DVD player or Cable box)the TV will try to scale the picture
automatically to adjust to the approximate video signal coming in from
the AVR 247. The AVR 247 will upscale outgoing video to 720p through
HDMI. However, when using a analog input video signal such as component
or s-video the scaling can be off depending on the resolution of your TV
display. As a result, setting the output resolution to 480p from your
AVR 247 is the best alternative, unless you are able to disable the auto
scaling feature of your TV display.

I hope this helps.

Sounds like he's trying to tell me that my TV is upconverting a source that is already upconverted. But even when set to 480p the black bars are still there. And now what I've found is that the black bar's size is totally dependant on what is being connected. I have a Sony SD DVD player that shows small bars on 720p and none on 480p, but my SD DirecTV box shows large bars for both.

Now I'm trying to decide whether or not I should keep this. I really like the idea of having one cord to the back of the TV, but all HDMI receivers I've looked at in this price range seem to upconvert if connecting via HDMI. I love everything else about this receiver, and in the near future I'm going to be upgrading to a 1080i DirecTV box which SHOULD pass through without any problems, so I'm on the fence about taking it back or keeping it. I got the 247 for $430 out-the-door.....what to do, what to do? Is there anything in the ~$500 price range that has one HDMI connection without upconversion? I'm going to keep looking as I have 30 days to return this. Thanks for any help!


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post #382 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 06:41 PM
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I missed this tread at first. I guess I should have posted it here. Well hear goes.

This is harder than picking the flat panel :{. Anyway I have read way to much and it seems the more I read the more I don't no. I have a very simple question that does not seem to have an answer.

I would like to replace my old AVR (from the s-video days) with one that will not be left behind as my HD system grows.

The heart of my new HD system is the Samsung 4254 (720p). What I believe to be a very good display for someone like me who is trying to squeeze a decent system (read money) out of the LOML. I would like to be able to have one HDMI cable to the displaywall mounted) and be able to have the audio played throw the AVR.

The current sources for the panel are:
1) standard cable(coax into tv,audio from display back to current receiver)
2) xbox 360 component
a. can this be passed through at 1080i
3) Wii component
4) upconvert DVD component

I am upgrading to cablevisions IO digital in two weeks and would like to be able to connect the DVR using HDMI. The last thing I would like would be to add one of the high def DVD formats via HDMI.

Do to the fact that I have $255 Best Buy bucks, I will be limited to one of the AVRs that they carry (wife rule). Right now the H/K AVR-247 seems the best for my needs. The others are:
Sony STR-DG810
Yamaha RX-V661BL
Pioneer VSX-1016TX

A couple more ?
When I hook up the cable box via HDMI will the audio be over HDMI or will a need an additional cable for audio?
right now I have the 360 outputing 1080i direct to the sammy over component. How does one set this up through the avr247?
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post #383 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big_screen_bill View Post


So the main difference appears to be the 10 watts. Will I even notice it? Thanks.

I'm probably one of the few people here who have directly compared both the 247 and 347 at the same time. The 347 is a noticably more powerful receiver than the 247 but there is little to no difference in sound quality. If you run big floorstanders or 4-6 ohm speakers, get the 347.

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post #384 of 5256 Old 09-07-2007, 09:08 PM
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Has anyone hooked up an IR receiver to the X47s?
I bought this SpeakerCraft IR receiver and it doesnt work....
I thought that all IR receivers are the same, but it looks that this one needs power and the 247 will not power it.... which I didnt know until now.
It doesnt work in the input, and for the multi as well.
Any ideas?

Drew
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post #385 of 5256 Old 09-08-2007, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scambo00 View Post

I missed this tread at first. I guess I should have posted it here. Well hear goes.

This is harder than picking the flat panel :{. Anyway I have read way to much and it seems the more I read the more I don't no. I have a very simple question that does not seem to have an answer.

I would like to replace my old AVR (from the s-video days) with one that will not be left behind as my HD system grows.

The heart of my new HD system is the Samsung 4254 (720p). What I believe to be a very good display for someone like me who is trying to squeeze a decent system (read money) out of the LOML. I would like to be able to have one HDMI cable to the displaywall mounted) and be able to have the audio played throw the AVR.

The current sources for the panel are:
1) standard cable(coax into tv,audio from display back to current receiver)
2) xbox 360 component
a. can this be passed through at 1080i
3) Wii component
4) upconvert DVD component

I am upgrading to cablevisions IO digital in two weeks and would like to be able to connect the DVR using HDMI. The last thing I would like would be to add one of the high def DVD formats via HDMI.

Do to the fact that I have $255 Best Buy bucks, I will be limited to one of the AVRs that they carry (wife rule). Right now the H/K AVR-247 seems the best for my needs. The others are:
Sony STR-DG810
Yamaha RX-V661BL
Pioneer VSX-1016TX

A couple more ?
When I hook up the cable box via HDMI will the audio be over HDMI or will a need an additional cable for audio?
right now I have the 360 outputing 1080i direct to the sammy over component. How does one set this up through the avr247?

To answer your question on the audio, the 247 will process audio over hdmi so you dont need another cable. For the xbox the 247 cannot pass 1080i from component through hdmi only 720p, best thing to do is get and hdmi output on the 360. With the wii in component the 247 can upconvert it to 720p and output it through hdmi.
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post #386 of 5256 Old 09-08-2007, 05:27 PM
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Wow i just got my HK AVR 247 and this thing kicks ass! Just one question about the power. Do you guys usually leave the main power switch in and leave it in standby with the amber led on? Or do you guys turn off the main switch when you are not using your HK?

Thanks!
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post #387 of 5256 Old 09-09-2007, 04:23 AM
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Is it possible to input my 1080i signal from my Xbox through component and output it as 1080i with the component out? Does it do anything to that signal with the 247?
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post #388 of 5256 Old 09-09-2007, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avr2477 View Post

Wow i just got my HK AVR 247 and this thing kicks ass! Just one question about the power. Do you guys usually leave the main power switch in and leave it in standby with the amber led on? Or do you guys turn off the main switch when you are not using your HK?

Thanks!

I keep my receivers in the standby mode (amber light on). This does present a small draw of power, though. If you were to fully power off the receiver, I'm not sure how long your settings (crossover points, etc.) would be maintained. I thought the trickle of power while in standby mode fed the memory for these settings to get maintained. I could be wrong, though.
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post #389 of 5256 Old 09-09-2007, 05:20 PM
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I recently moved and when I hooked everything back up on my 247 and I noticed that on my PS3 input when I try to adjust the levels for each channel independently it wont allow me to access the surround speakers or center.. only FL, FR, and Sub. But only when in PCM mode. I have no idea what Ive done and Ive tried and tried to correct the problem but I havent gotten anywhere. And just for ease again I have a HK AVR247 hooked up to my PS3 via HDMI... No independent level control of speakers when in PCM mode.


No one?? Does anyone else have a PS3 hooked up via HDMI on the 247??
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post #390 of 5256 Old 09-09-2007, 06:01 PM
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I noticed that sometimes it seemed like you couldn't change all speaker levels, but one or two. When I played around, I found if I changed one of them then I could change all of them.

Lloyd
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