Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread. - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seabass901 View Post

Ehh.. I got rid of the 247.. It just didnt satisfy me.. Almost everything about it annoyed me. It does have good SQ but you pay for in lack of control and tons of bugs. Also the upconversion looks bad IMO. Looks VERY VERY interlaced. I switched the to Pioneer Elite VSX-92THX... 1080p upconversion, Dolby True-HD, and DTS-HD.. Sound quality is amazing.. And it passes through 1080p/24!!! Bye Bye HK!!!!!!!

I would sincerely hope you'd be happy with a +$1000 amp (I've seen it listed for as high as $1600). I'm glad you enjoy your new amp, but it's kinda like apples and oranges when you are over $700 difference in price isn't it? Not even the same playing field I'd say.

Anyway, the only 'bug' I've encountered while using my 347 is the 24hz passthru which HK knows about and doesn't bother me anyway. I feel like I got my $400 worth. *shrugs*

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #452 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

I would sincerely hope you'd be happy with a +$1000 amp (I've seen it listed for as high as $1600). I'm glad you enjoy your new amp, but it's kinda like apples and oranges when you are over $700 difference in price isn't it? Not even the same playing field I'd say.

Anyway, the only 'bug' I've encountered while using my 347 is the 24hz passthru which HK knows about and doesn't bother me anyway. I feel like I got my $400 worth. *shrugs*

Oh yeah.. Im not really trying to compare. Im just saying that I had to move up because I just dont think I would have been happy with a receiver of that caliber.. It is a nice receiver for the money.. Just not what I wanted.
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post #453 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 09:39 AM
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Try setting your audio output on the PS3 to automatic under settings, sound settings, then audio output settings. It will test which type of audio the HK can decode and enable those.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CURX8 View Post

I posted this in the Playstation 3 area since it is a PS3 issue I THINK.......

I have the 247 (and love it btw) and am running my PS3 through the 247 via HDMI to handle all my sounds. BUT, I also still have the component Multi-Out and Optical cable for when I play older games that may not be in 480p (read about lag when suing 480i through HDMI).

Well the problem is this: I want to play Ghost Recond Advanced Warfighter 2 multiplayer. I get great sound during single player, but when I switch to multiplayer, the reciever switches from Multi Ch PCM to Dolby Digital, and then I get no sound. I have tried switching my audio output to my optical output, get the same result, sound on single player, no sound in multiplayer.
Then when I try to play demos that I downloaded, I lose my sound when the receiver switches to Dolby Digital.

The wierd thing is, though, it that when I watch cable, it comes through as Dobly Digital and sounds fine.

Hopefully someone here can help me out with this issue. thanks a lot!

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post #454 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tb311 View Post

Try setting your audio output on the PS3 to automatic under settings, sound settings, then audio output settings. It will test which type of audio the HK can decode and enable those.

I actually did that and still not working. I think I have tried just about everything and still not working. maybe i should just plug in some analog audio cables to get sound for demos I guess. I am wondering if there may be some conflict at the audio output of the PS3 since both HDMI and optical are plugged in, but I find that highly unlikely. just seems strange that I can't get dolby digital from the PS3, but can get it from my cable box
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post #455 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClevelandRob View Post

Man... I was so happy to order an AVR-247, but now I just read more and more about this LFE issue, 1080p "sparklies" and speaker popping! I may have to rethink these things.

Lossless PCM audio is one of my main objectives with my audio upgrade and if this LFE boost issue is not fixed then it isn't worth it. Does LFE work correctly for anyone with a PS3?? Is there a firmware update for this? That sucks, I really like everything else about the H/K.

I just purchased and installed a 247 into my system and I am having ALL of these problems -- LFE issue, 1080p sparkles (even when the source is 1080p and the AVR is just passing it through!), speakers popping when source is paused, and ridiculous audio drops when in dolby digital.

I'm considering doing a warranty replacement in hopes that the replacement will have all of this fixed (whether by firmware update or otherwise), but I've read the last several pages of this thread and it seems to indicate that none of these problems are fixed in the current firmware. Is that correct?! If so, does anyone know when the firmware fix will be available?

Thanks in advance.

--Mav
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post #456 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 12:47 PM
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What is the 1080p sparkles? I haven't heard of that one.
Now that I think of it, I do get some static noise when a source is paused, but it doesn't happen when it's playing so I just deal with it.

When you say you have audio drops in DD, is it while watching tv and a commerical comes on or when you change channels? Or is it while watching 1 source and it drops out in the middle of the program?

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #457 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverickster2 View Post

I just purchased and installed a 247 into my system and I am having ALL of these problems -- LFE issue, 1080p sparkles (even when the source is 1080p and the AVR is just passing it through!), speakers popping when source is paused, and ridiculous audio drops when in dolby digital.

I'm considering doing a warranty replacement in hopes that the replacement will have all of this fixed (whether by firmware update or otherwise), but I've read the last several pages of this thread and it seems to indicate that none of these problems are fixed in the current firmware. Is that correct?! If so, does anyone know when the firmware fix will be available?

Thanks in advance.

--Mav

The speaker popping is an issue with some of the 247's, so a warranty replacement should fix that. I don't have that issue at all with mine. If by audio drops, you mean the pause before audio comes back after pausing a movie or some such, it is there but most of us don't worry about it. It is a 'feature'!

1080p? Is that 1080p/24 or 1080p/60? I've read that 1080p/24 isn't supported.

There is no word from HK about the LFE issue that seems to bug a few people. Personally I've never noticed that it IS an issue. I'm extremely satisfied with the sound from all sources with my 247.

Lloyd
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post #458 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 02:14 PM
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Hypothetically, if I was able to test the upcoming firmware for the AVR 247/347 this week, what would everyone want me to test?

Hypothetically of course.

In unrelated news , I'm currently working with HK on the 24hz issue and they believe it's fixed.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #459 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 02:24 PM
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Hypothetically I'm gonna be pissed!

I've been kissing the butt of HK tech support for soooooo long to get this fix out.

Now I feel better! hypothetically you could test:

7.1 LPCM from a Blu Ray disc if you have one, that's just about the only 7.1 LPCM out there. If'n you don't have a BD player, why you could hypothetically send me the firmware upgrade and I could test it for you!

Also layering of dolby PLIIIx over LPCM.

And last you could test LFE, but I haven't a clue how you would do that.

Lloyd
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post #460 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lparsons21 View Post

Hypothetically I'm gonna be pissed!

I've been kissing the butt of HK tech support for soooooo long to get this fix out.

Now I feel better! hypothetically you could test:

7.1 LPCM from a Blu Ray disc if you have one, that's just about the only 7.1 LPCM out there. If'n you don't have a BD player, why you could hypothetically send me the firmware upgrade and I could test it for you!

Also layering of dolby PLIIIx over LPCM.

And last you could test LFE, but I haven't a clue how you would do that.

I don't have a 7.1 disk nor do I have 7.1 speakers (5.1 but I could borrow 2 more I suppose). I have been told in no uncertain terms that it has been fixed tho. What Disk has 7.1 LPCM? I could get on netflix and rent it.

Laying of PL2x I would definitely test.......hypothetically.

I have no idea how I would test LFE either, but I'm sure Bommai will be along shortly to tell me how.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #461 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 03:51 PM
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There are only a very few.

In BluRay - Ultimate Avengers (a cartoon war movie, pretty good if I do say so myself)

In standard DVD could get snakes on a plane which has 6.1 DTS-ES and set your player to LPCM out and it would give a 6.1 LPCM into the 247.

BTW, you would need the 2 extra speakers to test PL2x also.

Lloyd
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post #462 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 04:42 PM
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Also you could hypothetically check if there is an option to turn off the upscaling. And you could also give us the hypothetical release date of the firmware to the public
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post #463 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 04:54 PM
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I'll hypothetically work on all above.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #464 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

Hypothetically, if I was able to test the upcoming firmware for the AVR 247/347 this week, what would everyone want me to test?

Hypothetically of course.

In unrelated news , I'm currently working with HK on the 24hz issue and they believe it's fixed.

Hypothetically, please check on the following:

1. 1080p 24. With my Ps3, even at 1080p 60, I had dropouts. This shouldn't happen. 1080p 24 could NOT be passed. It reverted back to 1080p 60.

2. Logic 7, Neo 6 and PLIIx on 5.1 PCM via HDMI. An absolute must!

3. Acceptance of 7.1 PCM. Blu-ray discs with 7.1. Crank, Descent, Van Wilder, Waiting, Ultimate Avengers, Delta Farce, Dr. Strange.

4. The ability to switch off the Faroudja.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #465 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lparsons21 View Post

Hypothetically I'm gonna be pissed!

I've been kissing the butt of HK tech support for soooooo long to get this fix out.

Now I feel better! hypothetically you could test:

7.1 LPCM from a Blu Ray disc if you have one, that's just about the only 7.1 LPCM out there. If'n you don't have a BD player, why you could hypothetically send me the firmware upgrade and I could test it for you!

Also layering of dolby PLIIIx over LPCM.

And last you could test LFE, but I haven't a clue how you would do that.

Travis, I support this idea as well. Letting Lparsons test it out with Blu-ray.

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #466 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 07:03 PM
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Can you test the high bit rate SACD playback? I had to turn mine off because it sounded llike a bad recorded MP3. I think it was 172 that I turned off.

If they can fix all the issues, I will buy another for my bedroom...
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post #467 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 07:30 PM
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The 1080p sparkles is sparklies which appear when the HDMI source is 1080p. It's usually caused by poor cabling, but in this case, it's being caused by the AVR 247. Some others have reported this as well and I'm less than pleased that it's happening. I've isolated it to the 247 by taking the 247 out of the chain between the 1080p source (an Oppo 981HD) and the TV and replacing it with a simple 4" HDMI coupler -- sparklies disappeared. Re-introduced the 247 and the sparklies are back. That's a ridiculous defect.

The DD drop was a drop of an entire channel (the center channel) for no reason whatsoever on a replayed football game from Sunday. Watching the game, everything works fine, then I notice there are no announcers -- for like 10 minutes! Put my ear up to the center and basically nothing. Then I reset the receiver and played that same passage again -- voila! it's back.

Add both of those to the popping speakers during pause and the LFE boost issue and I'm quickly becoming disenchanted with this thing. If it didn't produce such a beautiful sound, I'd be out; but, since it does, I'm going to give it a warranty exchange try.

On the firmware, should I reasonably expect it to fix ANY of this or do I have a defective unit?

--Mav
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post #468 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Travis, I support this idea as well. Letting Lparsons test it out with Blu-ray.

I'm all for it.

Travis, just how close to very southern Illinois do you live? I could come over, bring extra speakers, my Blu Ray player and a selection of fine test disks and we could have a hypothetical testing party.

Heck, I could even hypothetically drink your hypothetical beer!!

Lloyd
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post #469 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 08:55 PM
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Maverickster2

How do you tell if the LFE level is an issue? I've asked this question before and all I ever got was 'with a meter'. And I didn't notice a difference in various bass levels with differrent sources using various codecs between my HK AVR247 and Yamaha RX-V661.

For you other problems, I suspect that you just have a bum unit and a swap will fix it.

As to what the firmware will or won't do, the only thing that has been discussed is LPCM 7.1 via HDMI and possible layering. But I would imagine there might be other fixes in it also. Nobody knows hypothetically... :-)

Lloyd
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post #470 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 09:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, Travis says 1080p 24 is fixed in the upcoming firmware. There's a very easy way to test that out. A projector and tv that accepts 1080p 24 and a PS3 with forced 24 enabled. My old 247 couldn't do it.

It was really frustrating as I ran everything through my PS3 - DVD at 1080p (amazing), CDs, SACD, Blu-ray. My new Denon does it all, but it doesn't sound quite as nice as the HK did. If the firmware fixes my needs, I'll return the Denon and get the 247 back. Here's hoping the firmware is out sometime in the next 20 days.

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post #471 of 5256 Old 09-17-2007, 10:22 PM
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LFE is probably easiest tested by using an spl meter and only having the sub plugged in. Or you can get a test disc that puts out lpcm and has tracks that are just lfe. Not sure if they're around or not.
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post #472 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tb311 View Post

Also you could hypothetically check if there is an option to turn off the upscaling. And you could also give us the hypothetical release date of the firmware to the public

+1 on the upscaling. Being able to turn that on/off along with the video
adjustments would be fantastic.
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post #473 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Hypothetically, please check on the following:

1. 1080p 24. With my Ps3, even at 1080p 60, I had dropouts. This shouldn't happen. 1080p 24 could NOT be passed. It reverted back to 1080p 60.

2. Logic 7, Neo 6 and PLIIx on 5.1 PCM via HDMI. An absolute must!

3. Acceptance of 7.1 PCM. Blu-ray discs with 7.1. Crank, Descent, Van Wilder, Waiting, Ultimate Avengers, Delta Farce, Dr. Strange.

4. The ability to switch off the Faroudja.

Ok, I'll rent Crank. I liked the movie but never saw the Blu Ray version. Altho I don't even think I'll need to rent a movie since the PS3 has a setup screen which will show if the amp will pass PCM or not. I'll rent it anyway tho. 1080p 24 was the original phone call I made to HK anyway, so that's why I'm hypothetically testing anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eightninesuited View Post

Travis, I support this idea as well. Letting Lparsons test it out with Blu-ray.

Not sure how realistic that would be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThumperII View Post

Can you test the high bit rate SACD playback? I had to turn mine off because it sounded llike a bad recorded MP3. I think it was 172 that I turned off.

If they can fix all the issues, I will buy another for my bedroom...

I've always been curious about SACD's. I don't own one, but maybe I'll buy one to test out. Do I just do a SACD search on Amazon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maverickster2 View Post

The 1080p sparkles is sparklies which appear when the HDMI source is 1080p. It's usually caused by poor cabling, but in this case, it's being caused by the AVR 247. Some others have reported this as well and I'm less than pleased that it's happening. I've isolated it to the 247 by taking the 247 out of the chain between the 1080p source (an Oppo 981HD) and the TV and replacing it with a simple 4" HDMI coupler -- sparklies disappeared. Re-introduced the 247 and the sparklies are back. That's a ridiculous defect.

The DD drop was a drop of an entire channel (the center channel) for no reason whatsoever on a replayed football game from Sunday. Watching the game, everything works fine, then I notice there are no announcers -- for like 10 minutes! Put my ear up to the center and basically nothing. Then I reset the receiver and played that same passage again -- voila! it's back.

Add both of those to the popping speakers during pause and the LFE boost issue and I'm quickly becoming disenchanted with this thing. If it didn't produce such a beautiful sound, I'd be out; but, since it does, I'm going to give it a warranty exchange try.

On the firmware, should I reasonably expect it to fix ANY of this or do I have a defective unit?

--Mav

It honestly sounds like a bad unit. Most of what you are experiencing I haven't with the lab unit here at work or my 347 at home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lparsons21 View Post

I'm all for it.

Travis, just how close to very southern Illinois do you live? I could come over, bring extra speakers, my Blu Ray player and a selection of fine test disks and we could have a hypothetical testing party.

Heck, I could even hypothetically drink your hypothetical beer!!


You know, I'd actually be up for that. I like having company. If you want to come over, I live just south of Seattle, WA. If you leave this morning you might make it here by this weekend.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #474 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:19 AM
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The easiest way to test LFE 10dB boost.

Things you need

247/347 all setup with speakers, display, etc
PS3 (easiest to use - if you have something else that can do it too go ahead)
Video Essentials DVD (the original one - not the DVE).
SPL Meter

Instructions:

Set the 247 to bitstream output through HDMI.
Play video essentials DVD. Make sure your 247 is playing plain Dolby Digital 5.1 (turn off all DSP).
Choose the pink noise chapter and just run through all speakers to make sure everything is working properly.
Choose the pink noise chapter and play the subwoofer pink noise test.
Hold the SPL meter from your seated position.
Increase the volume on your receiver so that you can get a good signal on the SPL. May be 75 dB.
Now, keep pressing the rewind button on the PS3 remote so that that chapter does not end - if it ends you have to navigate to it again - big pain!
Now, use the triangle option button on the PS3 to change the AV settings to Linear PCM instead of bitstream. Now the 247 should get PCM 3/2.1 on the front panel.
Check the SPL meter. Does it still read the same level as before when you had the PS3 set to bitstream.
When I tested the 247, the LPCM mode was 10dB lower than the bitstream mode.

With my AVR 745, both are at same levels. The 645 has same levels too.

Hope this helps.

Looks like I was very predictable. I came along with instructions.
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post #475 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

Ok, I'll rent Crank. I liked the movie but never saw the Blu Ray version. Altho I don't even think I'll need to rent a movie since the PS3 has a setup screen which will show if the amp will pass PCM or not. I'll rent it anyway tho. 1080p 24 was the original phone call I made to HK anyway, so that's why I'm hypothetically testing anything.


You know, I'd actually be up for that. I like having company. If you want to come over, I live just south of Seattle, WA. If you leave this morning you might make it here by this weekend.

Crank is a 6.1 not 7.1, but it will suffice for your hypothetical testing I assume.

As to the trip, well this weekend is club tournament at my golf club and I've got a lock on last place, so I'll have to pass! I've worked hard this year to improve my game and with last place so firmly in my sights, I just can't tear myself away...

Lloyd
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post #476 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

The easiest way to test LFE 10dB boost.

Things you need

247/347 all setup with speakers, display, etc
PS3 (easiest to use - if you have something else that can do it too go ahead)
Video Essentials DVD (the original one - not the DVE).
SPL Meter

Instructions:

Set the 247 to bitstream output through HDMI.
Play video essentials DVD. Make sure your 247 is playing plain Dolby Digital 5.1 (turn off all DSP).
Choose the pink noise chapter and just run through all speakers to make sure everything is working properly.
Choose the pink noise chapter and play the subwoofer pink noise test.
Hold the SPL meter from your seated position.
Increase the volume on your receiver so that you can get a good signal on the SPL. May be 75 dB.
Now, keep pressing the rewind button on the PS3 remote so that that chapter does not end - if it ends you have to navigate to it again - big pain!
Now, use the triangle option button on the PS3 to change the AV settings to Linear PCM instead of bitstream. Now the 247 should get PCM 3/2.1 on the front panel.
Check the SPL meter. Does it still read the same level as before when you had the PS3 set to bitstream.
When I tested the 247, the LPCM mode was 10dB lower than the bitstream mode.

With my AVR 745, both are at same levels. The 645 has same levels too.

Hope this helps.

Looks like I was very predictable. I came along with instructions.

So it takes a meter to even tell if it is not doing it? Which makes me wonder if the LFE boost issue is much ado about nothing as in my ear comparisons between the Yamaha RX-V661 which doesn't have the issue, and my HK AVR247 which does, I can't discern a bass difference.

I'm confused...

Lloyd
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post #477 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:31 AM
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10db difference should feel around half as loud. You should be able to tell by your ears no problem.
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post #478 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:35 AM
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It's those problems that stop me from getting a 247 at the moment. But since it does I am not totally sure what receiver I want. I like the SQ of the 247, but I like how the yamaha 661 works.
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post #479 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

It's those problems that stop me from getting a 247 at the moment. But since it does I am not totally sure what receiver I want. I like the SQ of the 247, but I like how the yamaha 661 works.

I have both in my procrastinator's delight setup and the thing I hate about the 661 is that the OSD doesn't work with HDMI output which defeats one of the reasons for having HDMI in the first place.

For info, I use the 661 as a pre/pro to the 247. HDMI in from the HDDVD and BluRay player, 8-channel analog audio out to the HK with an HDMI switch to change video from Yammy and HK depending on source. Works quite well and makes for interesting times with the remotes. Sound is fully HK great, with the control and tweaks of the 661.

Lloyd
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post #480 of 5256 Old 09-18-2007, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleblaze View Post

10db difference should feel around half as loud. You should be able to tell by your ears no problem.

Well my ears spent a lot of time on the flight line and carrier decks with jets all over the place...

What frequency range is LFE? From reading seems like very much lower than what we normally think of as Bass. Maybe I just cannot discern them????

Lloyd
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