Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread. - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 5258 Old 09-24-2007, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleblaze View Post

I feel that the HK 247 sounds a lot better than the ~$1300 denons. However, HK does lag a bit with it's interface, remote, and the bugs it has. If someone there was telling me that I'd see if they've actually heard the 247. HK would be real hard to beat if they just got a good interface designer.

I completely agree. For 7 years I owned two different $800 models of Denon. The first was the AVR 2700 (back in 1999). Then the AVR 2803 (back in 2004). I recently sold the 2803 (back in March) and bought the 247. What a big difference. In fact, my home theatre and CDs came alive. My wife was very impressed too. I am not even talking about the PCM stuff (which is also great btw), I am talking about traditional two channel stuff and DD and DTS. After having the scaling issue with the 247, I ended up getting the 745 and would definitely buy an H/K again. When you hear sweet sound like that, you end up putting up with the idiosyncracies!!
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post #542 of 5258 Old 09-24-2007, 09:30 PM
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I am in the market for a new receiver, and I am considering the 247. I think this has been answered but I want to make sure. Does the 247 leave 1080i/p signals alone, or does it automatically convert them to 720p. I've read conflicting reports of this issue in other threads/Forums.

I'm going to connect a Dish 622 DVR (1080i) and an A20 (1080p) via HDMI, and an Xbox 360 (1080i) via component to the receiver. I will connect the HDMI out to the TV's HDMI port, and I will run component cables from the receiver to the TV and manually change the input for the 360. Will the 247 screw with any of these signals, or will it pass each as is?

Also, is there a way to check my TV (Panasonic 700U plasma) to see what signal (e.g. 720p, 1080i, or 1080p) it is receiving?
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post #543 of 5258 Old 09-24-2007, 10:54 PM
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It will pass any 1080 signal coming in via hdmi but not component AFAIK, so it wont touch your DVR and A20 but it will upscale the xbox since it coming in through component. If you want to leave the xbox signal alone you could just run the audio to the receiver and run the xbox component straight to the TV.
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post #544 of 5258 Old 09-24-2007, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tb311 View Post

It will pass any 1080 signal coming in via hdmi but not component AFAIK, so it wont touch your DVR and A20 but it will upscale the xbox since it coming in through component. If you want to leave the xbox signal alone you could just run the audio to the receiver and run the xbox component straight to the TV.

This is not true. If you send 1080i component in, it will send 1080i component out. It is the HDMI out that gets reduced to 720p.
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post #545 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 07:58 AM
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I think I got some info to share.

The PCM 7.1 issue (not layering, just accepting 7.1 PCM) and 1080p24 seem to be the only things that will be fixed in this firmware. It appears everything else is set for a future firmware upgrade.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #546 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 08:20 AM
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Thanks, Travis.

That is both good and bad news, huh? While accepting 7.1 LPCM via HDMI is very important, the reality is that there isn't much in the way of 7.1 material out there. That may change, but who really knows?

And I'm sure those with 1080p/24 TVs will be happy about that getting a fix.

Lloyd
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post #547 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 08:41 AM
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Yeah, my feeling is that LFE is #1, but apparently that's on the list for the next firmware (no idea when that will be).

BTW, the hold up on all of the firmwares (I think even the 745) is the loader, not the actual firmware. Actually, with the 24fps bug that I found it might hold the 247/347 firmware a bit longer. But it's a good thing, not a bad thing. Trust me when I say you guys aren't missing out on anything yet.

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post #548 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 09:22 AM
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To introduce myself, I am a first-time H/K owner and so far am very happy with the purchase. I have an AVR 247, April 2007 build (seemingly no build issues - *knock on wood*). I am new to the home theater topic, so I apologize if my question is basic stuff, but here goes.

My question requires a bit of background. I have a Motorola DCT6416 III HD/DVR STB from my local cable company. IMHO, not the best quality machine in the world, but they didn't ask me. Go figure. I run the HDMI directly to my TV (Panasonic 50PX75), since I don't really like the way the 247 scales SD pictures. Not a problem. I have run an optical cable from the STB to the 247, for when I want to pick up the DD. This problem has happened to me twice: When watching a recorded program on the STB, usually after either fast forwarding or rewinding the program, the sound signal going to the receiver is lost. No sound at all, and the two L and R boxes on the display start blinking. The receiver flashes "2/0/.0". If I switch to the TV speakers, all is well. The first time it happened, I'm not sure what fixed it, but it did. The second time, I powered down the STB and powered it back up, and it seemed to work again. The 247 is only about 2 weeks old, and my question is, does this sound like a receiver problem, or a STB problem? My guess is the latter, but since my return period is dwindling, thought I would see what your guys might think.

Associated with this is a minor issue, whenever fastforwarding or rewinding a program, the sound delays and there is usually a noticeable boom from the subwoofer as the sound kicks out, and back in when it starts playing again. Is this a normal reaction from my sub?

I appreciate any insights you might be able to share. Cheers.
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post #549 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

Yeah, my feeling is that LFE is #1, but apparently that's on the list for the next firmware (no idea when that will be).

BTW, the hold up on all of the firmwares (I think even the 745) is the loader, not the actual firmware. Actually, with the 24fps bug that I found it might hold the 247/347 firmware a bit longer. But it's a good thing, not a bad thing. Trust me when I say you guys aren't missing out on anything yet.


dang... I was really hoping for LFE. It doesn't make sense to put the 24p issue above the LFE bug when I would assume that the LFE effects many more users than 24p...

Thanks for the info, Travis.

Also... I'm not sure if you've realized this by now, but you are reading my sig.
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post #550 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 11:33 AM
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tlaughlin,

I won't pretend that I know what the issue is, but I'll give it a go...

This doesn't happen to me at all. Does any of this happen when playing DVD's as well? If not, then it may be the STB cause the issue. Try component from the STB to the TV in case the audio from the HDMI is causing issues.

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post #551 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 11:57 AM
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What is the LFE problem that you are talking about. I thought that when the receiver first came out that the +10 db boost wasn't being applied to the DD and DTS signals. But I heard that the ones that came out recently had the problem fixed.
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post #552 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 11:57 AM
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Thanks for your help, Travis. It does not seem to be affecting the DVD player and, in fact, the last time I had the problem I first switched the digital coax output from the DVD to the STB digital coax out (same input on the receiver), to see if perhaps it was a problem with the optical input on the receiver. Still no sound, though. The only thing that made me wonder was the fact that I could still get sound through the HDMI connected directly from the STB to the TV (thereby taking the receiver out of the equation). I am guessing, though, that the TV does not decode the DD signal and, therefore, if the STB's problem was with the digital signal output, the TV wouldn't be affected but the receiver would... maybe? I'll give the STB a kick and grumble about cable companies. That may be my only solution for the time being.

Thanks again for your help.
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post #553 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

What is the LFE problem that you are talking about. I thought that when the receiver first came out that the +10 db boost wasn't being applied to the DD and DTS signals. But I heard that the ones that came out recently had the problem fixed.

The LFE problem we are referring to is with PCM sources.

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Originally Posted by tlaughlin View Post

Thanks for your help, Travis. It does not seem to be affecting the DVD player and, in fact, the last time I had the problem I first switched the digital coax output from the DVD to the STB digital coax out (same input on the receiver), to see if perhaps it was a problem with the optical input on the receiver. Still no sound, though. The only thing that made me wonder was the fact that I could still get sound through the HDMI connected directly from the STB to the TV (thereby taking the receiver out of the equation). I am guessing, though, that the TV does not decode the DD signal and, therefore, if the STB's problem was with the digital signal output, the TV wouldn't be affected but the receiver would... maybe? I'll give the STB a kick and grumble about cable companies. That may be my only solution for the time being.

Thanks again for your help.


Hmm, if you put the HDMi to the AVR when it happens, do you get sound then?

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post #554 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 12:28 PM
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I haven't tried that yet, but I'll try that experiment the next time I encounter the problem and let you know how it turns out. Cheers.
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post #555 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

Yeah, my feeling is that LFE is #1, but apparently that's on the list for the next firmware (no idea when that will be).

BTW, the hold up on all of the firmwares (I think even the 745) is the loader, not the actual firmware. Actually, with the 24fps bug that I found it might hold the 247/347 firmware a bit longer. But it's a good thing, not a bad thing. Trust me when I say you guys aren't missing out on anything yet.

My contact at H/K told me the same thing about the loader being most critical. I am a software engineer in embedded environment (railroad signaling stuff) and I understand the whole process from a software engineering point of view. While the loader is very important (don't want to brick anyone's unit), I don't think the loader should change from firmware version to firmware version. We already got one firmware update for the 745 (that fixed PCM 5.1 issues with HD-DVD players). So, I would assume the next update would require minimal testing of the loader. I am patiently waiting from the 745 firmware fix.
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post #556 of 5258 Old 09-25-2007, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone get the feeling that the only reason DSP processing on 5.1 PCM is not updated is to create demand for the 447, 647, and 747 models, whenever they come out?

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #557 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 07:31 AM
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I've got my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my AVR 247, and HDMI going to my Sammy LCD. I have the PS3 output set to 1080p and can confirm this resolution on the TV. I'm seeing some artifacts on the screen, especially in areas of motion (e.g. left/right arrows in the PS3 settings screens). What are the likely causes?
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post #558 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bommai View Post

My contact at H/K told me the same thing about the loader being most critical. I am a software engineer in embedded environment (railroad signaling stuff) and I understand the whole process from a software engineering point of view. While the loader is very important (don't want to brick anyone's unit), I don't think the loader should change from firmware version to firmware version. We already got one firmware update for the 745 (that fixed PCM 5.1 issues with HD-DVD players). So, I would assume the next update would require minimal testing of the loader. I am patiently waiting from the 745 firmware fix.

Considering this would be the first firmware upgrade for the AVR 247, they probably want to test all the error conditions. Loading firmware at the factory may be a different procedure and can be fixed easily if something goes wrong. At the end user, it has to be perfect.
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post #559 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loonicks View Post

I've got my PS3 hooked up via HDMI to my AVR 247, and HDMI going to my Sammy LCD. I have the PS3 output set to 1080p and can confirm this resolution on the TV. I'm seeing some artifacts on the screen, especially in areas of motion (e.g. left/right arrows in the PS3 settings screens). What are the likely causes?

I have a tested a similar setup and didn't see any artifacts. My guess is the HDMI cable. Do you have another?

Quote:


Anyone get the feeling that the only reason DSP processing on 5.1 PCM is not updated is to create demand for the 447, 647, and 747 models, whenever they come out?

From what I know, none of those products are scheduled for this year. I don't think they are trying to create demand to be honest. I believe they will be fixed in an upcoming firmware.

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post #560 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

I have a tested a similar setup and didn't see any artifacts. My guess is the HDMI cable. Do you have another?

I figured that might be it.. I'll try it today. Why are HDMI cables so flaky? Can you recommend a particular cable that works well and isn't expensive?
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post #561 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 09:17 AM
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I have a H/K 247 AVR that I have for a few months now....I had been using only optical/coax digital inputs. But yesterday I decided to get a standalone HD-DVD player to replace my XBOX 360 addon. I got a Toshiba A30.

I am somewhat confused about how to set things up. Ive read thru this thread and it seems I have it correct but still want to make sure.

I have the A30 going to the 247 via HDMI. HDMI out from the AVR to my TV (Vizio 47" 1080P LCD).

The A30 has 3 settings for its HDMI audio output...Auto/PCM/Downmix.

I have tried both Auto and PCM and for HD-DVD's I cannot tell a difference...both result in the AVR displaying Multi CH PCM...followed briefly by 3/2/.1 48hz (or something like that).

Now with SD DVDs....the AUTO settings seems to pass the audio just as it would from regular DVD player using Optical/Coax....But with PCM it shows the same Multi CH PCM.

When showing Multi CH PCM the 5 channels light up on the 247s display however it also shows SURROUND OFF. And I cannot seem to do any adjustments to channels...except F/R and Sub allows me to adjust the level. Thats it. I can hear sounds comming from all 5 speakers.

Is this normal? What has me concerned is that I am not sure which Crossover, Speaker Delay, etc settings are being applied if any....As most here are aware the 247 allows for different speaker/surround settings for each MODE. What mode is MC PCM using?

Am I missing something. Which HDMI Audio setting on the A30 should I be using Auto or PCM?
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post #562 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 09:31 AM
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I finally ran all of my wiring in the attic and now my 347 is hooked up to my TV, SVS sub, and temporary speakers (until my DefTechs arrive). Man what an amazing sound even with my crappy fronts. Music sounds amazing (big surprise from an HK ) and movies sound equally impressive. It was so cool playing Halo 3 last night and feeling like I was in the middle of the action and "feeling" every gun shot and explosion. Even though I hear more 247 talk, I decided to bite the bullet on the 347 for a little more power especially since I could get it for a great price. An awesome receiver and I am so glad I went the HK route!

- Bill
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post #563 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loonicks View Post

I figured that might be it.. I'll try it today. Why are HDMI cables so flaky? Can you recommend a particular cable that works well and isn't expensive?

www.monoprice.com all the way. I use several from there and never had a problem. Under $6 for a 6ft HDMI cable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelSmith View Post


I am somewhat confused about how to set things up. Ive read thru this thread and it seems I have it correct but still want to make sure.

I have the A30 going to the 247 via HDMI. HDMI out from the AVR to my TV (Vizio 47" 1080P LCD).

The A30 has 3 settings for its HDMI audio output...Auto/PCM/Downmix.

I have tried both Auto and PCM and for HD-DVD's I cannot tell a difference...both result in the AVR displaying Multi CH PCM...followed briefly by 3/2/.1 48hz (or something like that).

Now with SD DVDs....the AUTO settings seems to pass the audio just as it would from regular DVD player using Optical/Coax....But with PCM it shows the same Multi CH PCM.

When showing Multi CH PCM the 5 channels light up on the 247s display however it also shows SURROUND OFF. And I cannot seem to do any adjustments to channels...except F/R and Sub allows me to adjust the level. Thats it. I can hear sounds comming from all 5 speakers.

Is this normal? What has me concerned is that I am not sure which Crossover, Speaker Delay, etc settings are being applied if any....As most here are aware the 247 allows for different speaker/surround settings for each MODE. What mode is MC PCM using?

Am I missing something. Which HDMI Audio setting on the A30 should I be using Auto or PCM?


Auto or PCM would be fine. Make sure when you watch movies that support it, that you are selecting Dolby True HD. This is the higher resolution audio codec. If it doesn't support True HD, it will probably default to Dolby Digital Plus which isn't as good, but is better than standard DVD sound. You shouldn't really need to adjust anything and really HD-DVD's should sound quite a bit better than standard DVD's. If you have already run the EZ setup, then you should be fine. You shouldn't need to change any settings (and with LPCM you can't, that's what we have been discussing the last page or so) but you should get great sound.

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post #564 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RafaelSmith View Post

The A30 has 3 settings for its HDMI audio output...Auto/PCM/Downmix.

I have tried both Auto and PCM and for HD-DVD's I cannot tell a difference...both result in the AVR displaying Multi CH PCM...followed briefly by 3/2/.1 48hz (or something like that).

Now with SD DVDs....the AUTO settings seems to pass the audio just as it would from regular DVD player using Optical/Coax....But with PCM it shows the same Multi CH PCM.

When showing Multi CH PCM the 5 channels light up on the 247s display however it also shows SURROUND OFF. And I cannot seem to do any adjustments to channels...except F/R and Sub allows me to adjust the level. Thats it. I can hear sounds comming from all 5 speakers.

Is this normal? What has me concerned is that I am not sure which Crossover, Speaker Delay, etc settings are being applied if any....As most here are aware the 247 allows for different speaker/surround settings for each MODE. What mode is MC PCM using?

Am I missing something. Which HDMI Audio setting on the A30 should I be using Auto or PCM?

I'd use Auto. BluRay/HD-DVD should be using Multi Channel LPCM. However, DVDs only use bitstream for 5.1. They don't have the storage space for Multi channel LPCM.

With regards to surround off when multi lpcm is being sent, you're crossover, distance, etc are being applied. However, extra Dolby processing cannot be used with multi LPCM and this unit (which is why it just says surround off.. slightly confusing isn't it?) I don't generally use Dolby filters, but it is useful when listening at low volumes and some other applications.
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post #565 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 11:15 AM
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Thanks for all the info.

I figured I had everything correctly

My H/K is great...it sounds great, looks great....but they really need to work on their manuals and choice of words. Very confusing seeing SURROUND OFF while hearing surround sound =P

As for AUTO -vs- PCM....maybe its just me, and I only have one HD-DVD with TrueHD....but PCM sounded better than AUTO when im pretty sure its actually the same.
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post #566 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soleblaze View Post

I'd use Auto. BluRay/HD-DVD should be using Multi Channel LPCM. However, DVDs only use bitstream for 5.1. They don't have the storage space for Multi channel LPCM.

With regards to surround off when multi lpcm is being sent, you're crossover, distance, etc are being applied. However, extra Dolby processing cannot be used with multi LPCM and this unit (which is why it just says surround off.. slightly confusing isn't it?) I don't generally use Dolby filters, but it is useful when listening at low volumes and some other applications.


I usually do not use filters...but I do sometimes need to adjust speaker levels..usually I have to adjust the center..with MC PCM the H/K only lets me adjust speaker levels for FL/FR and Sub...even though there are signals and sound for the other channels.

So I was wondering what speaker level values it was using for the other channels...since the H/K does seperate speaker level adjustments for each "MODE"...i.e Dolby Digital, DTS, etc.

Using the OSD while playing a MC PCM....it shows values for the other speakers...which seem to be whatever was last used....just not sure thats what is actually being applied.

Ok im starting to sound as confusing as the H/K manual. =P
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post #567 of 5258 Old 09-26-2007, 04:19 PM
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Seems many of you are praising these H/K for their great sound reproduction.

I was all set to pick up the Onkyo 605 when the the salesman told me that even though these particular receivers have slightly less features, the sound is much better than the Onkyos.

I don't have a powerhouse system, nor do I need one for the small living area I'll be using this in, and I'd jump right into this amp if not for the fact that it doesn't have HDMI 1.3 connectors (the only way to get DTS-HD MA, until a player learns to decode it itself).

Worth it for the sound? Or will I not even notice with a modest setup?
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post #568 of 5258 Old 09-27-2007, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by dallow View Post

Seems many of you are praising these H/K for their great sound reproduction.

I was all set to pick up the Onkyo 605 when the the salesman told me that even though these particular receivers have slightly less features, the sound is much better than the Onkyos.

I don't have a powerhouse system, nor do I need one for the small living area I'll be using this in, and I'd jump right into this amp if not for the fact that it doesn't have HDMI 1.3 connectors (the only way to get DTS-HD MA, until a player learns to decode it itself).

Worth it for the sound? Or will I not even notice with a modest setup?

I don't know as much as many around here, but I just purchased a 247 after originally ordering a 605. I've never heard the 605, but the 247 is awesome. I would assume that since you say you don't have a "powerhouse" system, then the 247 would be a better bet for you since it's clarity and range are supposedly heads and tails above the 605.

As far as DTS-HD ma... I was really sold on the 605 because of the decoding of DTS-HD ma. I don't know your HD setup, but I have a PS3 and it is probably more likely that it will decode DTS-HD ma internally and send it PCM (like it does with Dolby TrueHD) than sending it bitstream, so the AVR decoding becomes useless. But that's just my opinion!

Also... I'm not sure if you've realized this by now, but you are reading my sig.
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post #569 of 5258 Old 09-27-2007, 10:11 AM
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I was under the impression that all players currently decode tru hd or dts-hd to multi channel lpcm on the fly and none of them currently send out it as tru-hd/dts-hd
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post #570 of 5258 Old 09-27-2007, 10:37 AM
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In HDDVD, they decode TrueHD and send out LPCM. Actually, in HDDVD, they decode all codecs internally from HDDVD discs, it is part of the spec.

In BluRay, it is a mixed bag. They don't all decode TrueHD or DTS-HD except some phony darned 'core'. I know that, I own a Sony S300 which will be my last Sony BR player ever, maybe even last Sony product for that matter.

But there are some new announced models for BluRay that will pass the advanced codecs as a bitstream for decoding by the receiver. Not many. I think actually only one.

Lloyd
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