Harman Kardon AVR 247 & 347 discussion thread. - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 12:39 PM
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The wildly varying prices between the 247 and 347 are starting to annoy me. I'd probably be fine with the 247, but for under $500, the 347 seems like the better choice. Why pay $500 for the 247 when you can have the 347 for the same price?

The 347 also gives me the option of just not using the HDMI or component video inputs at all, since it has enough optical inputs for all my digital audio needs -- upscaling Oppo DVD player (DVI->HDMI), Xbox 360 (VGA), TiVo HD (HDMI), and Apple Airport Express (optical audio only, could run 1/8" to RCA analog as well).

I guess I could run HDMI video through the receiver at 1080i for the Oppo and the TiVo, but really, I don't mind manually changing the inputs on the TV and receiver, especially if it avoids all the enormous hassles people are experiencing with most switching receivers, not just H/K ones either.

Thoughts? I'm thinking just grab the 347 and be done with it. I'm not really considering other brands because I care about sound first. Love my H/K gear for that. All this video processing and video switching is just a feature I don't care that much about. If it works with zero hassles -- maybe I'll use it.
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post #812 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 05:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by letzleta View Post

Does anyone know for sure if the 10db LFE issue has been resolved?

Nope. I wish!

Quote:


If so, is it a firmware update that I can install?

The firmware will be out once you are in your grave. The incompetence of Harman International is legendary!

No animals were harmed in the creation of this sentence.
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post #813 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 05:58 PM
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Here is an email I received from Harman:

"No set ETA on the firmware update. Hopefully within the next 3-4 weeks. It will be downloadable to any end user will be able to install.
It should also include the Logic 7 overlay as well. Bear in the mind the AVR 645 and the AVR 745 already do this."
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post #814 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 06:19 PM
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Out of curiosity, how long have they been saying 3-4 weeks?
Is it time for an online petition?
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post #815 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 08:12 PM
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Hi all. I just returned my AVR 247 to BB and picked up an Onkyo 605 from CC. i just couldn't live with LFE issue. It kills me because I really liked everything else about the 247. I emailed the following to HK:

I bought an AVR 247 from Best Buy on 10/04. Today I installed my HD DVD
player, a Toshiba HD-A2. I watched several HD DVD movies and noticed
that there was a severe lack of bass. After researching this issue on
the internet I found out the receiver is not boosting the LFE channel by
10db and this was going to be fixed in firmware. I was wondering if you
could provide a date when this is going to be released, because if it's
not going to be addressed I am going to return the receiver for an Onkyo
605.

The response I got:

Good evening and thanks for your inquiry. With deep regrets this is an
issue that cannot be addressed by a firmware update. Please let me
explain...As per Dolby Labs standard it is not a standard requirement
for mastering studios to include bass boost up to 10 db within the
recording. As a result of this issue, it was left up to processor
manufactures to include the ability to trim the boost level of LFE
separate from the tone boost level. Unfortunately, this is a feature
that is not available on the AVR 247 and I do apologize for that.



So far I'm liking the Onk. It doesn't sound quite as good as HK, but it sounds good. It is super ugly compared to the 247 though....
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post #816 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 08:24 PM
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I hope that is not the case. If it is, I will be very upset that the harman rep told me it would be fixed with firmware.
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post #817 of 5256 Old 10-25-2007, 10:43 PM
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Was thinking of getting the Onk 605 but now am seriously considering this unit...

I'm curious about the 347s ability to do A-Bus since I know that has something to do with zones...

I have 4 "zones" in my house and I'm looking for the best way to get these wired up for the least amount of complexity and $.

Can someone help me understand zones in the context of the 247 and or 347?
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post #818 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 04:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echase View Post

The AVR247 is a great reciever, with excelent sound quality, however, it will NOT pass 1080P from composite, so you will need to either upgrade to an HDMI XB360, or plug it's video directly into your monitor.

I think you must have intended to say "COMPONENT" - I cannot imagine anyone sending signals through a composite cable on a 1080P panel.

I'm surprised HK is so far behind the curve in bringing the AVR up to snuff with 1080P/24 they seem to have future sound on an AVR that's outdated on the Video end. I truly would like to add an HK since my last car was a BMW with HK sound and it was the best sound I've ever heard in a vehicle, my current car has a BOSE that is truly blandsville comparatively.

Seems we'll have to wait CES 2008 to find anything new that brings the video end of the match up to todays Video standards after all it would be foolish to sacrifice 1080P for sound when you should be able to get the whole package. Anyone hear of next gen HK?

Samsung 65F8000, 60D8000, 40HU6350, Panasonic 50E60 LCD's
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post #819 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 06:15 AM
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Ok all you experts. I'm sold on the 247, even with the few issues. Here's what I have, can anyone see any potential issues with the components and/or connections?

Optoma h31 (HDMI out from Receiver to DVI on Projector)
AVR 247 (Upgrading from 5 yo Yamaha HTIB Reciever)
Toshiba a-20 hddvd (HDMI DVD to HDMI Receiver)
Motorola HD DVR cable box. (DVI from CB to HDMI Receiver w/toslink for audio)

Speakers - Front - Boston Acoustics A60, Center - Paradigm CC-50, Rears Paradigm Micros, Sub - Yamaha YST80.

My final question is, will I have potential issues watching SD cable via the HDMI/DVI connection. If so, can I connect the HD box DVI to HDMI for HD cable and connect the component from the HD box directly to the projector for SD cable? Thanks
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post #820 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 07:06 AM
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Clarifications

1080p 24 will be fixed in the next firmware upgrade.

The AVR *WILL* pass 1080p thru component outs to the TV.

All of this data is in this thread, no need to speculate.

I have a website, but apparently I can't put it here. WTF?
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post #821 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 11:40 AM
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There appears to be this perception that this unit 247 is responsible for poor transmission of 1080p data to the point that "sparklies" are introduced on the users display. Can multiple owners corroborate this or dispel the rumor?

I suspect it is not a design issue as much as a mfg issue experienced by a few owners. Anyone?
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post #822 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 01:47 PM
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My best guess on the sparkles is that people are doing longer cable runs after they plug into the reciever, (and using two cables). I had sparkles as well, which were not present when there was only one (short) cable between my set and the TV, but they are really very very minor, and only present in light areas of the 1080p picture. I plan on re-routing my HDMI cables away from the power cables (doh!)... I will post if that resolves the issue.

----

I apologize for spreading the misinformation about 1080P over COMPONENT cable. I should know better than to trust the lies in the user manual!

----

What's the best workaround for the LFE issue? I was thinking of getting a second inexpensive subwoofer, and using it for the bass on the left/right channels (plugging it into the pre-outs) and plugging the main sub & shaker into the Sub out, and setting the sub channel to be LFE only, then boosting +10 in speaker setup... would that be effective?
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post #823 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 01:51 PM
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Does Harman know of the demand for turning off the forced scaling?
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post #824 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 01:52 PM
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LFE/Firmware Campaign???


It amazes me how slow to act H/K has been on the LFE issue (not to mention allowing video passthrough) Perhaps if folks would take a few minutes every few days to ask them about this we could get it resolved.

I manage a customer service department for an online retailer, and when we start hearing the same complaint from multiple customers we know that we must take action. (Isolated incidents are more often ignored)

If somone can post relevant contact info it would be helpful. I will email twice a week, and call once a week until this is resolved. If enough others do the same, we will probably see some action.

Thanks!
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post #825 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echase View Post

LFE/Firmware Campaign???


It amazes me how slow to act H/K has been on the LFE issue (not to mention allowing video passthrough) Perhaps if folks would take a few minutes every few days to ask them about this we could get it resolved.

I manage a customer service department for an online retailer, and when we start hearing the same complaint from multiple customers we know that we must take action. (Isolated incidents are more often ignored)

If somone can post relevant contact info it would be helpful. I will email twice a week, and call once a week until this is resolved. If enough others do the same, we will probably see some action.

Thanks!

I would be extremely pleased if these issues would be resolved...but I've given up hope and have learned to live with it. The only other unit (IMO) worth considering in its price range is the Onkyo, and I'm not an Onkyo fan.
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post #826 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 04:15 PM
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These issues arn't important enough to send a couple of emails a week about?
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post #827 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echase View Post

These issues arn't important enough to send a couple of emails a week about?

HK lost a potential customer here.....The LFE issue turned me away...
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post #828 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 05:22 PM
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Hi,
The A-Bus is great, just run cat5 to each zone, one cable to the hub, My Sound and Security guy said this system would not sound good and have no volume, so he ran extra 16ga wire to every zone as a back up, as once dry wall is up, it is tough to pull wires. When they came back for trimout and turned the system on, he was amazed at the volume and sound, They are going to start wireing for A-Bus in every new home as now he says this is the only way to go, and I love it.
Harman was to release a new Hub ABH4 and new control AB2 in Jan of 07, than pushed the date to june, than july, than Oct. now they say avaiable Dec. 07, I plan on upgradeing to this system to have multi source and increase to 8 zones if they ever get there act together. A-bus is avaiable only on the AVR 347.
I have the 347 upstairs, HDMI to Pioneer Elite 50" , Pioneer Blu-Ray
Have a 247 Down with HDMI to Pioneer Kuro 60" Panasonic Blu-R
The 347 is the only one having a slight problem with 1080P, but all and all I still say Harman Kardon Rules.
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post #829 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 05:30 PM
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Way back in the days of the AVR-X10 series, HK had a bug where the dts LFE level was also 10dB too low. They never fixed it, but it was fixed in later revisions in the X20 line. I'm amazed that they've somehow managed to overlook it again with PCM. It definitely has caused me to eliminate these HK's from my list of potentials, and I'd definitely think twice when considering their future models. I'd have to wait to many user reviews to assure myself that the problem is gone. Hopefully you guys get lucky and a firmware upgrade can fix it.

I love their cosmetics and power, but I can't imagine who's doing the qc on these type of design shortcomings. Don't know if they're working from a different set of specs, or what's going on. Of course, they're not alone here and there are other makes that have the same bug.

bg
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post #830 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 07:53 PM
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I wonder if somone could make a +10DBI LFE boost adapter that would go on the end of your HDMI cable. I bet people would pay $25-$50 for such a thing. (Or heck, let it be variable, so it could be defeated for music)
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post #831 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavemanhead View Post

There appears to be this perception that this unit 247 is responsible for poor transmission of 1080p data to the point that "sparklies" are introduced on the users display. Can multiple owners corroborate this or dispel the rumor?

I suspect it is not a design issue as much as a mfg issue experienced by a few owners. Anyone?

I checked this out, it is noticeable on light areas of my HK347. The HK247 has none.
Also my HDMI cables are only 6' from AVR to TV,
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post #832 of 5256 Old 10-26-2007, 11:15 PM
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pics or it didn't happen!


I'm curious if this will be the case with a new lcd I plan on getting soon.

As of right now I'm running two old 501 V's through the 247 and I must say coming from an ancient str d915 I couldn't be happier with the sound.

I'm going to keep the fronts for now and look for rears for 70/30 music/movie listening.
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post #833 of 5256 Old 10-27-2007, 05:54 AM
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scoxnc: Have you tried moving the HDMI cables at least 6" away from the power cables?
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post #834 of 5256 Old 10-27-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echase View Post

scoxnc: Have you tried moving the HDMI cables at least 6" away from the power cables?

Did that work for your unit? The AVR247 downstairs is clear, it is the AVR347 upstairs that has a lot of sparklies, am using a Monster 6'HDMI cable and it is around a lot of other cables, so I will try to route another way and see what happens, but of interest is that I slid a AVR 745 out and sold. Then slid in a new AVR 347, the AVR745 had no problems, of course you have to bypass the AVR745, as it would not pass 1080P.
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post #835 of 5256 Old 10-27-2007, 09:33 PM
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I would like to hear opinions on why I should choose the 247 over a Yam 661 or a Denon 1908. I have a gift for BB -in store only.This has been a long week of research, and I'm just as confused as I was before I knew about either of them. Probably won't be the 1908 unless it becomes available at a local store. Neither unit is wired for demonstration, just sitting on a rack. Mostly for music & movies, no game box thingies. Main spkrs are AR-90's that I'm going to utilize, and inexpensive Technic surrounds, (these are going away soon!). We just installed a Sharp LC42D64 tv and would like to enjoy HT with the family and we often play music throughout the day as a background. I'm replacing a DOA receiver and want something w/o issues- wife hates pushing more than 1 button to watch TV! I've read alot about HK's sound, but the Yam's aren't too bad either. Does utilizing component & optical outputs I.L.O. HDMI resolve the upscale issues? 1 HDMI would sure be easier to hide. Does the HK offer modes for music playback?(i.e. Stadium, 5 channel, Concert Hall, etc.) Thanks for your input, D.
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post #836 of 5256 Old 10-27-2007, 09:42 PM
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383-80Z:

pg. 48-50 of the owners manual describes the settings you asked about.

http://www.harmankardon.com/product_...=&prod=AVR+247
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post #837 of 5256 Old 10-28-2007, 06:59 AM
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SCOXNC:

Rerouting cables worked for me.

Since you were previusly bypassing the recieve on HDMI I assume you are now using more cabling (One into the reciever, and one out, instead of directly to the monitor) ... Regardless of the brand of cable routing it next to power cables is likely to cause issues. (Kindof like how the best audiophile speakers will sound like krud if they are positioned incorectly in a bad room)
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post #838 of 5256 Old 10-28-2007, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by echase View Post

SCOXNC:

Rerouting cables worked for me.

Since you were previusly bypassing the recieve on HDMI I assume you are now using more cabling (One into the reciever, and one out, instead of directly to the monitor) ... Regardless of the brand of cable routing it next to power cables is likely to cause issues. (Kindof like how the best audiophile speakers will sound like krud if they are positioned incorectly in a bad room)

I just tried a new HDMI cabe with a little different route, still have the same minor problem, it is pretty much impossible to keep the HDMI cable away from power and other cables, as I use a 4' AV-Rak which is almost full, the Av-Rak makes for neat cable arrangement which I like.

The AVR247 downstairs, the HDMI is routed in a flexiable sleeve with power and other cables, no problem there.

I thought these high dollar cables where shielded and so on. I will talk with HK, and get there input.
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post #839 of 5256 Old 10-28-2007, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis M View Post

Clarifications

1080p 24 will be fixed in the next firmware upgrade.

The AVR *WILL* pass 1080p thru component outs to the TV.

All of this data is in this thread, no need to speculate.

Is it true that the LFE issue will not be fixed? At this point, I will not buy another 247/347. HK really needs to get on the ball and keep up with their competition. This is from someone with 3 HK receivers.
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post #840 of 5256 Old 10-29-2007, 08:09 AM
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Hello to all,

I am new to the forums and recently have purchased a 347. I love the look and sound from it and overall am quite happy.

The question that I have pertains to using the 347 with my PS3. I notice that as soon as I turn everything on the 347 is showing multi chanel PCM. Its isn DSP mode and the surround is off? I cannot change this setting at all, it is like it is locked into the surround setting. Is this normal?? The weird thing is that the speakers on the front display show that the surround is off, but when I go over to the surround speakers and listen, they are on??

Please help!!

Thanks!
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