Denon Audyssey: Disappointing? Read on... - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 47 Old 07-12-2007, 08:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

The room is 17' by 11' - the pictures seem to make is much longer than it is. I did pull the speakers out a bit, as well as the seating area. Plus, I raised the center speaker, and then removed the coffe table when I re-did the auto-calibration.

Good. That reflective table is a biggie.

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Questions: if I change the center speaker size to Small (Audyssey always makes it Large) and adjust the SW cutoffs, does that affect the EQ? The one thing that Audyssey does in spades is improve the sound stage.

But it is small. You do not have to take all of Audyssey's recommendations. I suggest you try it.

When I ran MultEQxt, it said all my speakers were large but I know my rear speakers better. Interestingly, the SEQ/Pro did say that the rears were small.

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post #32 of 47 Old 07-12-2007, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

But it is small. You do not have to take all of Audyssey's recommendations. I suggest you try it.

I see that I can change the speaker size, but the Audyssey light changes from green to red. Can I also change the cutoff point without affecting the EQ? I believe that if I change the speaker size, there is no automatic change to the cutoff point. To me, this is not logical.

The Yammay allowed me to set the center channel as small, and set a cutoff point to send lows to my L/R speakers. I don't see that option with Denon.

Jeepers, I wish I could get my hands on some detailed documentation on Denon's implementation of Audyssey.

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post #33 of 47 Old 07-12-2007, 09:27 AM
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J. Mike, that room does really limit what you can achieve. You didn't answer what kind of speakers those are so I'll just assume they are capable of playing full range at least down to 25hz their corner placement will emphasize the bass. Here's what I'd try if I were you this will be worth the effort;

-Move your equipment rack to the front under the screen either side of the center if need be.
-Move your main speakers out from the wall, a couple of feet at least, and get your right and left as far away from the side wall as far you can without impeding your vision.
-Pull your couch out two or three ft from the back wall and place your sub behind it center of the wall (to start anyways, you might want to corner load it depending if that's an opening I see on the right.)

Then do some temporary acoustic treatments to give you an idea of what can be accomplished, once you see what you can accomplish you can use proper stuff to match your decor;

-Sit in the middle of you couch and have someone slide a mirror along the side wall starting near your front speakers and moving towards you and as soon as you can see the tweeter in the mirror mark that spot on the wall and place something there on both sides, a pillow or a small rug - these are the first reflection points.
-Temporarily place pillows in the four upper corners of your room so there's air space behind them and in the back wall corners if you have enough. These will be mock bass traps to give you an idea of what they can do.
- Cover the glass table with anything like a thick table cloth but leave the table there - you normally would, and if you take it away when measuring what the Audyssey does will be wasted because there's going to be a bunch of stuff bouncing off that glass surface. (That's likely why your center channel doesn't sound right.)
- Lean or put something between your back two speakers at ear height that has a completely irregular surface, a loaded bookcase or something - this will act as diffusion.
- Set your mains to Front+LFE - do cross over your center to at least 80hz, set your subs' level to where it sounds properly integrated with the rest of your system.
- Now run the Audyssey - and make sure you do it with the projector off.

This is a starting point as far as the Sub and center channel/ mains crossover are concerned. Try it with your mains just set to large w/no LFE, you can also move your sub around, the goal is to get a smooth bass response without being able to localize the sub.
I'm guessing a center back position for the sub because of the size of your fronts and their corner placement reinforcing the bass coming from the front.
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post #34 of 47 Old 07-12-2007, 11:17 PM
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You should set all of your speakers to small (see here) and you can adjust the crossovers to whatever you like for each individual speaker (starting off with 80Hz which is the generally accepted standard). Speaker setups and Audyssey really aren't the same thing, they're just very aware of each other - Audyssey keeps on working no matter the changes in the speaker setup. The only change will be the colour of the light.
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post #35 of 47 Old 07-13-2007, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Hey guys - thanks for the terrific tips.
The sound is getting better with each tweak I apply.

J.Mike
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post #36 of 47 Old 07-14-2007, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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UPDATE
Here is a link to the FAQ section of the Audyssey website:
Audyssey FAQ
This Q/A is of particular interest:
Quote:


What happens to the MultEQ settings when the parameters are changed? MultEQ corrects for room acoustical problems. Changes in the tone controls do not change the filter performance. They do change the tonal balance based on the preferences of the customer. The benefit of MultEQ is that it allows a customer (or installer) tone control setting to work on all program material in a much more predictable way than it would on an uncalibrated system. Changes made to the crossover frequency or small and large settings of the loudspeakers will affect the performance of the MultEQ filters and Audyssey does not recommend changing them.

I've been playing around with the speaker settings because after a dozen calibration routines, Audyssey still sees my center speaker as Large, which it is certainly not. It's interesting: when I change the center speaker to Small, the cutoff frequency is automatically set to 40Hz. That's OK, and if I make just that one change, I still have the impressive sound-stage that Audyssey produces. It seems that any other changes to speaker level or changing the cutoff to 80Hz will negatively impact the sound-stage. Therefore, there seems to be very little flexibility in tweaking an Audyssey calibration.

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post #37 of 47 Old 07-14-2007, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

UPDATE
Here is a link to the FAQ section of the Audyssey website:
Audyssey FAQ
This Q/A is of particular interest:

I've been playing around with the speaker settings because after a dozen calibration routines, Audyssey still sees my center speaker as Large, which it is certainly not. It's interesting: when I change the center speaker to Small, the cutoff frequency is automatically set to 40Hz. That's OK, and if I make just that one change, I still have the impressive sound-stage that Audyssey produces. It seems that any other changes to speaker level or changing the cutoff to 80Hz will negatively impact the sound-stage. Therefore, there seems to be very little flexibility in tweaking an Audyssey calibration.

Can you not set the crossover before you run the Audyssey?

Regardless, the Audyssey won't come close to doing for you what Kal and I suggested. I repeat, it will be worth the effort.
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post #38 of 47 Old 07-14-2007, 01:35 PM
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Mike, I think that's an old FAQ and Chris has revised his advice on this forum as time went on if you do a search. The small/large and XO frequency settings are just 'recommendations' made by Audyssey based on Denon's insistence that anything that can play below 80 Hz is 'large.' The actual settings are done in Denon firmware, not Audyssey firmware, so there is no harm in changing them to what they should be, i.e. where they sound best.

Dennis H
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post #39 of 47 Old 07-14-2007, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by catapult View Post

Mike, I think that's an old FAQ and Chris has revised his advice on this forum as time went on if you do a search. The small/large and XO frequency settings are just 'recommendations' made by Audyssey based on Denon's insistence that anything that can play below 80 Hz is 'large.' The actual settings are done in Denon firmware, not Audyssey firmware, so there is no harm in changing them to what they should be, i.e. where they sound best.

Thanks.
Frankly, I'd like to rename this thread to:
Denon Audyssey: Disappointing? Read on...
Based on the terrific feedback I'm getting (rnrgagne: yes your advice helps so much), the sound is really improved to a point that I can say that Audyssey makes a compelling improvment, BUT IT TAKES WORK. Thank goodness for this wonderful forum.

PS: I assume that messing with the individual speaker levels will certainly affect Audyssey's EQ, right?

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post #40 of 47 Old 07-14-2007, 11:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.Mike Ferrara View Post

PS: I assume that messing with the individual speaker levels will certainly affect Audyssey's EQ, right?

No, it will just change how loud each speaker is (but each speaker will still be corrected for a proper frequency response in your room). You can expect your soundstage to shift around.

As has already been pointed out, changing the crossover and small/large settings is fine... the original Audyssey FAQ was written by someone who assumed that the setup routine would get those to their best settings and that's why they shouldn't be changed. Experience quickly taught that it wasn't so and as has been pointed out, Chris clarified soon after to ignore that warning.
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post #41 of 47 Old 07-15-2007, 04:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vetboy View Post

has anyone used audyssey with more than one subwoofer? I currently have 2 paradigm servo 15's flanking the tv on either side and I'm thinking of upgrading to the 4308 from my 3803 but I'm not sure if its worth it.

I tried to calibrate with Audyssey using both of my subs and kept getting errors. I had to disconnect one sub, and viola, calibration went down without a hitch. After that, I just reconnected the other sub. Worked well for me.

I'm sure delay issues caused the problems.

This is MultiEQ XT on a Onkyo 805 BTW.
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post #42 of 47 Old 05-26-2013, 09:36 PM
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No matter how much you or we try to defend it - the autocalibration feature in the midline receivers (basic Audyssey) is a big disappointment. It happened with my Onkyos and now with the Denon 3313ci I just bought (and with the Yammy YPAO I had before, to be fair). In every case I was better off leaving Audyssey out and using the RS level meter to deal with levels (and a measuring tape for distances). This morning, as an example, I listened to two concerts in the Denon (no Audyssey) and was amazed at the sound. I had more time in the afternoon and decided to test Audyssey to see if it would do any better than in my old Onkyo TX-NR1009. The receiver now sounds like crap. I will reset it and go back to my levels iPAd app to calibrate. The sounds feels compressed, lifeless, dirty. That is how I see it - stick with a level meter and you will be happy. Use Audyssey and you will need three beers in your before it sounds ok.
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post #43 of 47 Old 05-26-2013, 10:07 PM
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That is how I see it - stick with a level meter and you will be happy. Use Audyssey and you will need three beers in your before it sounds ok.

^^^^
do whatever works best for you and your system. we will not be listening to your setup and only YOU need to be satisfied.

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post #44 of 47 Old 05-27-2013, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Namikis View Post

That is how I see it - stick with a level meter and you will be happy. Use Audyssey and you will need three beers in your before it sounds ok.

It's obviously true that Audyssey didn't work for your system and room, but that doesn't mean it's true for every setup. Also, Audyssey isn't the only player on the block as YPAO, ARC, MCACC, and others are out there as well. Do whatever sounds best to you.
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post #45 of 47 Old 05-27-2013, 11:05 AM
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I stumbled on this thread, assuming it was another "I hate Audyssey" bashing, only to find that it was almost 6 years old. Namikis, how many pages did you have to go back to find it?
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post #46 of 47 Old 05-27-2013, 02:49 PM
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Accurate sound reproduction isn't everyone's cuppa. Some just get used to a rooms' character and don't like the change.
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post #47 of 47 Old 05-27-2013, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Accurate sound reproduction isn't everyone's cuppa. Some just get used to a rooms' character and don't like the change.

"Accuracy" is a different thing from "adding a non-defeatable notch to the midrange to compensate for incompetently-designed loudspeakers, and neutering the natural low-end room gain." (The high-end rolloff technically isn't either, but unlike those first two design choices the HF rolloff makes some sense.)

If you like Audyssey, great. But its target curve is not reasonably characterized as "accurate."

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