The Official INTEGRA DTC-9.8 Thread - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by frombhto323 View Post

Thanks. It's just that I've noticed that some manufacturers say "balanced inputs/outputs" in their marketing literature, but the price of the component leads me to be skeptical that they are truly balanced at that price point. I know some manuafacturers, like ARC, BAT, and Cary have a reputation for offering truly balanced products, but they also tend to be pricier. Which leads me back to the poster's question on this: At this price point, can we reasonably believe the XLR outputs on the 9.8 are truly balanced?

Why? What is it about "truly balanced" that distinguishes it from balanced that makes a difference to you?

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post #722 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Why? What is it about "truly balanced" that distinguishes it from balanced that makes a difference to you?

Truly balanced just gotta be mo bettah than the other kind.

Right?

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post #723 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Why? What is it about "truly balanced" that distinguishes it from balanced that makes a difference to you?

My understanding of the technology is limited, but from what I do understand, many manufacturers use single-ended technology on their XLR inputs and outputs, thereby negating the true benefits of balanced connections. If that is the case here with the 9.8, many end users, like myself, might decide that it is not worth investing in XLR cables when we already have RCA interconnects that will do the job just fine.

If, on the other hand, the 9.8 is truly balanced (not just putting an XLR jack on single-ended circuitry), then some of us might decide it's worth it to give it a try. I've read many a review where the reviewer noted that a component performed better when XLR cables were used as opposed to RCA interconnects, even over short runs. If such a benefit is to be (theoretically) gained with the 9.8, then it is a factor in our setup options.
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post #724 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:41 AM
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Any reviews on this pre/pro yet? Seems like we all want one, but there has been minimal feedback.
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post #725 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:49 AM
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Placed my order on Friday...Will not receive until the end of August

Equipment that it will power...
Samsung 61" DLP 1080P
Emotiva MPS-1...7.1 config.
Toshiba XA-2 HDDVD
Panasonic DMP...Blu-ray
Xbox 360 elite
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post #726 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frombhto323 View Post

My understanding of the technology is limited, but from what I do understand, many manufacturers use single-ended technology on their XLR inputs and outputs, thereby negating the true benefits of balanced connections. If that is the case here with the 9.8, many end users, like myself, might decide that it is not worth investing in XLR cables when we already have RCA interconnects that will do the job just fine.

As I implied, one can obtain a true balanced output without having a completely balanced internal configuration. Both will afford all the benefits of a balanced connection.

Quote:


If, on the other hand, the 9.8 is truly balanced (not just putting an XLR jack on single-ended circuitry),

NO. What they do is convert the SE to BAL before the connector. See above. I strongly doubt that the 9.8 has fully balanced internal circuits and, yet, its balanced outputs are valid if needed.

Quote:


I've read many a review where the reviewer noted that a component performed better when XLR cables were used as opposed to RCA interconnects, even over short runs. If such a benefit is to be (theoretically) gained with the 9.8, then it is a factor in our setup options.

You are confusing balanced internal circuitry with balanced connections/wiring. The only benefits to balanced connections/wiring are reduced noise pickup for LONG runs in noisy environments and more secore connections (XLR>RCA). Internal issues are another thing and it is doubtful that the opening statement of this paragraph is generally true.

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post #727 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The only benefits to balanced connections/wiring are reduced noise pickup for LONG runs in noisy environments and more secore connections (XLR>RCA).

How about the higher output voltage/dB gain found with most competent balanced output designs?

A "fine" is a tax for doing wrong. A "tax" is a fine for doing well.
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post #728 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

As I implied, one can obtain a true balanced output without having a completely balanced internal configuration. Both will afford all the benefits of a balanced connection.

NO. What they do is convert the SE to BAL before the connector. See above. I strongly doubt that the 9.8 has fully balanced internal circuits and, yet, its balanced outputs are valid if needed.

You are confusing balanced internal circuitry with balanced connections/wiring. The only benefits to balanced connections/wiring are reduced noise pickup for LONG runs in noisy environments and more secore connections (XLR>RCA). Internal issues are another thing and it is doubtful that the opening statement of this paragraph is generally true.

Kal...are you getting paid to sell "secore connections" I didn't know they had an RCA and an XLR line?
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post #729 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m1fuller68 View Post

Placed my order on Friday...Will not receive until the end of August

Equipment that it will power...
Samsung 61" DLP 1080P
Emotiva MPS-1...7.1 config.
Toshiba XA-2 HDDVD
Panasonic DMP...Blu-ray
Xbox 360 elite
D*HR20-700

M1

I have on order or own:
Samsung 720p dlp
Panny BD player
Integra 9.8
Emotiva MPS-1

Let's keep in touch.

A.P.S. deserve our protection....join the cause today!
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post #730 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickS View Post

How about the higher output voltage/dB gain found with most competent balanced output designs?

+6dB Gain on XLR's

Note: when using 5 or 7 channels of XLR with a Subwoofer that is equipped with an RCA input. Because of the +6db gain you may not be able to turn the subwoofer volume up loud enough to match the 5/7 channels volume.

It just depends on the subwoofer. But, as I understand you can have the subwoofer gain modified for match performance.
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post #731 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Also, I skimmed the whole 130+ pages of the online manual and did not see a clearance height reccomendation as far as mounting this unit in a rack. Did I miss this info as far as how much clearance should be given right above the unit? My rack is open on all sides, but no a whole lot of space between the unit and the shelf above it, but I think I would be OK given that there is plenty of ventilation otherwise. Any thoughts?

Check page 2 #18 of the manual for ventilation requirements.
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post #732 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The only benefits to balanced connections/wiring are reduced noise pickup for LONG runs in noisy environments and more secore connections (XLR>RCA).

As an electrical engineer, let me explain the benefits of balanced connections. (I'm in digital communications not consumer electronics but this is a general transmission issue.)

Balanced connections send the signal voltage as both a positive & negative voltage down two adjacent wires with a third ground wire. This is done for noise reductions. Imagine if the instantaneous voltage is +5v. The balanced connection would send +5v & -5v. At that instance, noise of +0.3v is picked up by the wire. The receiving unit would receive +5.3v and -4.7v. It then inverts the negative voltage and averages the two. The 0.3v noise is cancled out resulting in +5v.

This is the general principal. There are many ways of accomplishing this. However, it is usually only important to start and end the balanced lines at the back panel. Internal noise would generally be generated by the unit it's self since the the equipment has a grounded metal case. If this is the case, there is a design problem that is causing the noise. I can see some hyper-sensitive engineer using balanced internally to keep the small noise from inside the box out of the signal but this is really splitting hairs.

Again, I'm in digital communications so have never had to make a design where the analog signal must remain absolutely pure. I'm sure you could find another engineer to get in a flame war with me but the fact is that internal balanced lines would be used to solve very minor noise issues.

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post #733 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by AJH View Post

Check page 2 #18 of the manual for ventilation requirements.

Yes, the manual recommends 8" clearance at the top of unit for enclosed applications. That 8" clearance plus the 7-5/8" height of the 9.8 would require an internal shelf height of 15-5/8" (nearly 16") without an external fan or air circulation device.

Quote from page 2, #18 of DTC-9.8 manual
Quote:


If you install the apparatus in a built-in installation, such as a bookcase or rack, ensure that there is adequate ventilation. Leave 20 cm (8") of free space at the top and sides and 10 cm (4") at the rear. The rear edge of the shelf or board above the apparatus shall be set 10 cm (4") away from the rear panel or wall, creating a flue-like gap for warm air to escape.

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post #734 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

I have on order or own:
Samsung 720p dlp
Panny BD player
Integra 9.8
Emotiva MPS-1

Let's keep in touch.

No problem, when does your 9.8 arrive?
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post #735 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 02:54 PM
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I have my Integra DTC-9.8 on order as well....no information yet on when it will arrive. Hopefully sooner rather than later!

The 9.8 will be paired up with a B&K 125.7 S2 Reference amplifier and a Samsung BD-P1200 Blu Ray player. Can't wait to get the high-res audio via HDMI matched with the 9.8's Audyssey calibration, for some serious LPCM surround sound.

Although this will likely be overkill for my current theater setup, it should come in handy for a dedicated theater down the road.

Looking forward to more early-owner's reviews so I know what to expect when my rig arrives. Thanks to those so far who are spending time tweaking the 9.8 and posting their impressions.

-Smittycat
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post #736 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Bucket View Post

Yes, the manual recommends 8" clearance at the top of unit for enclosed applications. That 8" clearance plus the 7-5/8" height of the 9.8 would require an internal shelf height of 15-5/8" (nearly 16") without an external fan or air circulation device.

Quote from page 2, #18 of DTC-9.8 manual

Bummer I have plenty of room on the sides and back, but only about 1/2" on top.

JVC 3D: Been there, done that, bought a DLP
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post #737 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by D-Bucket View Post

Yes, the manual recommends 8" clearance at the top of unit for enclosed applications.

It's probably the heat from that toroidal transformer. Anyone have an idea why a pre/pro would need this? I understand why amps use them but can't figure out why a pre/pro would use it.

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post #738 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlllava View Post

It's probably the heat from that toroidal transformer. Anyone have an idea why a pre/pro would need this? I understand why amps use them but can't figure out why a pre/pro would use it.

Better sound!

A toroidal transformer has a lower noise floor so you can hear the softer passages with better harmonics and signal accuracy. Reduction of noise is more important in a pre amp than an amp.
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post #739 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ekdo View Post

Better sound!

A toroidal transformer has a lower noise floor so you can hear the softer passages with better harmonics and signal accuracy. Reduction of noise is more important in a pre amp than an amp.

I still don't get it. The noise reduction comes from having a low noise floor on the power supply. When I was a coop (19 years ago) I built a power supply that could deliver 10A with only 5mV of noise with a regular transformer.

Now, a good pre/pro would want an even lower noise floor but shouldn't need 10A. The toroidal transformer is all about delivering lots of clean current. A pre/pro shouldn't need much as it's not driving speakers.

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post #740 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ekdo View Post

Better sound!

A toroidal transformer has a lower noise floor so you can hear the softer passages with better harmonics and signal accuracy. Reduction of noise is more important in a pre amp than an amp.

Meridian's G68 and 861 reference processors both use a switch-mode supply, and have great analogue performance. It's well reported on the Meridian forum that the switch-mode supply in the G68 is just an off-the-shelf part.

It's possible that Integra/Onkyo kept the changes from the Onkyo 875 as small as possible to minimize design costs and production line changes. The component cost may be higher, but overall it could work out cheaper for them to build this way.
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post #741 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 05:29 PM
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Has it been confirmed by an owner that the 9.8 won't output to both HDMI's simultaneously?
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post #742 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJH View Post

Check page 2 #18 of the manual for ventilation requirements.

That is fairly significant. Is it a bad idea in general to put audio equipment in a wood media cabinet?
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post #743 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post

That is fairly significant. Is it a bad idea in general to put audio equipment in a wood media cabinet?

I hope not. I just built one last weekend. Don't have the 9.8 yet but put my new Outlaw amp in there. I left 8" clearance for the amp and 6 for the 9.8. All side are open so I am not worried about heat. The amp stays warm, not hot at all.

Wood should be fine for an equipment rack.

Frank

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post #744 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fakerley View Post

I hope not. I just built one last weekend. Don't have the 9.8 yet but put my new Outlaw amp in there. I left 8" clearance for the amp and 6 for the 9.8. All side are open so I am not worried about heat. The amp stays warm, not hot at all.

Wood should be fine for an equipment rack.

My wife wants to purchase this, I let her choose the furniture she lets me choose the electronics.

Do you think this will be fine?

http://www.ethanallen.com/images/pro...642_xlarge.jpg
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post #745 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post

My wife wants to purchase this, I let her choose the furniture she lets me choose the electronics.

Do you think this will be fine?

It looks good but can you get the required 8" of clearance that the manual states? Maybe those shelves are removable.

I sould have stated that my rack is behind a wall so I didn't much care how it looked.

Frank

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post #746 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post

My wife wants to purchase this, I let her choose the furniture she lets me choose the electronics.

Do you think this will be fine?

http://www.ethanallen.com/images/pro...642_xlarge.jpg

looks too small to me
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post #747 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davewolfs View Post

My wife wants to purchase this, I let her choose the furniture she lets me choose the electronics.

Do you think this will be fine?

http://www.ethanallen.com/images/pro...642_xlarge.jpg

You're going to need something like this: http://www.parasound.com/zcustom/zbreeze.php
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post #748 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickS View Post

How about the higher output voltage/dB gain found with most competent balanced output designs?

Only an advantage if needed. Most systems have adequate gain.

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post #749 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 07:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlllava View Post

As an electrical engineer, let me explain the benefits of balanced connections. (I'm in digital communications not consumer electronics but this is a general transmission issue.)

Balanced connections send the signal voltage as both a positive & negative voltage down two adjacent wires with a third ground wire. This is done for noise reductions. Imagine if the instantaneous voltage is +5v. The balanced connection would send +5v & -5v. At that instance, noise of +0.3v is picked up by the wire. The receiving unit would receive +5.3v and -4.7v. It then inverts the negative voltage and averages the two. The 0.3v noise is cancled out resulting in +5v.

This is the general principal. There are many ways of accomplishing this. However, it is usually only important to start and end the balanced lines at the back panel. Internal noise would generally be generated by the unit it's self since the the equipment has a grounded metal case. If this is the case, there is a design problem that is causing the noise. I can see some hyper-sensitive engineer using balanced internally to keep the small noise from inside the box out of the signal but this is really splitting hairs.

Again, I'm in digital communications so have never had to make a design where the analog signal must remain absolutely pure. I'm sure you could find another engineer to get in a flame war with me but the fact is that internal balanced lines would be used to solve very minor noise issues.

Agreed. My comments were limited to the external wiring and its immediate connections.

Kal Rubinson

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post #750 of 12991 Old 07-29-2007, 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Kal...are you getting paid to sell "secore connections" I didn't know they had an RCA and an XLR line?

They don't but if we can whip up enought interest.................................................... ...

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