Onkyo 805 audio delay / lip synch problem - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: Does your Onkyo 805 exhibit an audio delay problem
Serious problem – the unit is going back 38 16.52%
Noticeable Problem – distracting but all in all I’ll keep it 56 24.35%
Minor Problem – I can detect it if I try but does not bother me 48 20.87%
What Problem – No lip synch problems on my 805 88 38.26%
Voters: 230. You may not vote on this poll

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post #61 of 385 Old 09-23-2007, 05:24 AM
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One test that isn't discussed to try to determine where in the signal path out of sync may be occurring is to listen to a track/vid where the out of sync appears to be apparent and the re run the track using Pure or Direct. All audio processing including Audyssey AND sync delay are not used. The only sync problems I have (I do have a 705 but we share the same processing guts) is with TNT but doesn't everyone? It only takes a push of the button and it could be revealing.

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post #62 of 385 Old 09-23-2007, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davahad View Post

Is there some reason Onkyo couldn't add a negative delay?

A more likely alternative would be to have adjustable delay on the video but I have no idea what would be involved in that.
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post #63 of 385 Old 09-23-2007, 10:42 AM
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Considering the audio delay can be mitigated via speaker distance, it seems that there has to be some way they could completely eliminate the delay.

Have an Onkyo 805 receiver and having trouble setting up Audyssey? HERE is a mini how-to.Click HERE to check out my comparison review of 5 different projection screen fabrics.
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post #64 of 385 Old 09-23-2007, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgribbles View Post

One test that isn't discussed to try to determine where in the signal path out of sync may be occurring is to listen to a track/vid where the out of sync appears to be apparent and the re run the track using Pure or Direct. All audio processing including Audyssey AND sync delay are not used. The only sync problems I have (I do have a 705 but we share the same processing guts) is with TNT but doesn't everyone? It only takes a push of the button and it could be revealing.

It has been discussed. On the first page of this thread, i stated that using Direct or Pure Audio mode does not fix this delay. I have measured the delay with both modes with no difference.

Even with Audyssey (and all dsp, eq, surround modes) disabled, the same delay is experienced. From the email that Chris from Audyssey sent me, there are other DSP chips in the Onkyo that are contributing to the delay (not just Audyssey's processing). From what I could gather thus far, Audyssey's processing dsp does manage the delay to some degree, since it is able to control and detect speaker distances, but it is only "one link in the chain" of chips in the Onkyo 805/875/905 receivers, so it can't compensate for delays introduced by the other chips. It is kind of like the "garbage in = garbage out" principle, except a little more complicated since the signals goes through several stages before it even reaches your speakers. There is no known way to bypass these chips; only a partial workaround by using MultChan analog inputs.
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post #65 of 385 Old 09-23-2007, 09:23 PM
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so the delay seems to go away with a set that can handle lipsync issues with tv and dvd and hd-whatever. So in those casses HDMI all around, i.e. aud and vid, would be fine. Who really cares if what you are seeing is 10 minutes behind the source, as long as it is synced up. And if you want to play bf2 or whatever on the pc, go out dvi, convert to hdmi in and run the vid to the panel normal but also run multichannel analog in from the pc. Problem seems to be solved for me... I think?!?!?!

Can PS3 ox xbox output multichannel?

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post #66 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 12:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pameredith View Post

so the delay seems to go away with a set that can handle lipsync issues with tv and dvd and hd-whatever. So in those casses HDMI all around, i.e. aud and vid, would be fine. Who really cares if what you are seeing is 10 minutes behind the source, as long as it is synced up. And if you want to play bf2 or whatever on the pc, go out dvi, convert to hdmi in and run the vid to the panel normal but also run multichannel analog in from the pc. Problem seems to be solved for me... I think?!?!?!

Can PS3 ox xbox output multichannel?

Yes, for a PC applications/gaming, this would be a decent workaround if you have sound card that can decode and output 5.1 or higher through analog ouputs. There are also software decoders you can use incase your card can't decode dd/dts or other formats.

However, I don't beleive that the PS3 and Xbox360 has any analog multichannel outputs, so if you are a console player, you would have to settle for regular stereo RCA to the MultiCh inputs if you must have no audio delay.

Also be aware that any audio that you run through the analog MultiCh inputs on the receiver cannot have any eq or dsp related filters applied to it. Like most receivers, these MultiCh inputs only outputs the sound it receives with no processing, much like a regular "dummy" amplifier.

A better workaround is if you have a seperate external decoder like the ones i mentioned on the 2nd page. The external decoder would be able to accept multiple digital connections (digital/coax), decode the information (dd/dts), and output it via analog to all your MultiCh inputs.
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post #67 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 08:53 AM
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Lip sync seemed to be particularly bad last night on Ken Burns 'The War'. Did others notice this?
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post #68 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Lip sync seemed to be particularly bad last night on Ken Burns 'The War'. Did others notice this?

Not through my SD TiVo (Live TV) connected via s-video.

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post #69 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grubavs View Post

Not through my SD TiVo (Live TV) connected via s-video.

I'm connected to Comcast cable HD (Mote DCH 3416 dvr) via HDMI. This is the worst lip sync I've ever seen. With other HD channels (and programs) it's been no issue at all.
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post #70 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 09:14 AM
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Not sure if we should be talking about broadcast lipsync, since that is an issue with your service provider.

If your channel already has sync issues, the 805 will only exaggerate the audio delay a bit more(makes it worse). If youre that worried about not knowing whether it is the channel that has the sync problem or just the 805 causing it then plug your Tivo/satbox to your TV speakers and your receiver, and do an A/B listening test to hear/see any difference between the two. And if you want to test only for the 805's delay, then run both TV spkrs and receiver at the same time to experience the echo/reverb effect.
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post #71 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Lip sync seemed to be particularly bad last night on Ken Burns 'The War'. Did others notice this?

Yes, watching this program was the worst I've ever seen the out of sync issue. Completely unacceptable. Source hardware was a Time Warner Cable 8300 HD-DVR box. Just to confirm, my A/V Sync setting is 0ms for all sources on the 805.
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post #72 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post

Yes, watching this program was the worst I've ever seen the out of sync issue. Completely unacceptable. Source hardware was a Time Warner Cable 8300 HD-DVR box. Just to confirm, my A/V Sync setting is 0ms for all sources on the 805.

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm quite sure it must be source related, for I've seen very little problem even on this channel with other programs.
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post #73 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 03:23 PM
 
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Not disputing that their is some DSP delay, but this 47ms-76ms delay is measured from real time input (ie. worst case) and I think some people are automatically assuming that the audio is 46ms-76ms out of sync with the video. Video processing has its own latentcy issues so when combined the net effect is that it may be very difficult to see and hear the issue.

Again I don't disagree that their may be some delay and it could be problematic for real time applications (gaming, karoke, live instrument playback, etc), but I don't think this issue is as serious some are portraying it. Again, nothing comes for free and as the audio algorithms get more complex this becomes more of an issue.

As far as a negative delay it could be in the form of a negative audio delay value representing a video delay. This would be fine for passive HT applications, but it would further complicate realtime apps.

If realtime applications are essential and you want to use digital inputs look elsewhere for a receiver to meet your needs.

And on a final note, you can drive yourself nuts looking for a problem that may or may not be there. You may think you are seeing it more often when in actuality you may be witnessing poor dialog looping and/or poor syncing at the source (TNTHD for example).
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post #74 of 385 Old 09-24-2007, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigW View Post

Not disputing that their is some DSP delay, but this 47ms-76ms delay is measured from real time input (ie. worst case) and I think some people are automatically assuming that the audio is 46ms-76ms out of sync with the video. Video processing has its own latentcy issues so when combined the net effect is that it may be very difficult to see and hear the issue.

Again I don't disagree that their may be some delay and it could be problematic for real time applications (gaming, karoke, live instrument playback, etc), but I don't think this issue is as serious some are portraying it. Again, nothing comes for free and as the audio algorithms get more complex this becomes more of an issue.

As far as a negative delay it could be in the form of a negative audio delay value representing a video delay. This would be fine for passive HT applications, but it would further complicate realtime apps.

If realtime applications are essential and you want to use digital inputs look elsewhere for a receiver to meet your needs.

And on a final note, you can drive yourself nuts looking for a problem that may or may not be there. You may think you are seeing it more often when in actuality you may be witnessing poor dialog looping and/or poor syncing at the source (TNTHD for example).

I agree on your points, however, there should be atleast some kind of option to disable or bypass some of these DSPs to minimize the latency for the realtime applications for those that need it. That is my main caveat, since I won't be able to fully enjoy upcoming games such as Guitar Hero III and RockBand. I'm not really so much concerned with the video watching portion since i don't notice it.

It should be noted that my 47-76ms measurements represent the actual audio delay, and not necessarily the lilpsync delay between the audio and video since you would have to account for any video delay if there is any. I don't have any accurate way of testing for that. However, I have used my PC on the TV many times (DVI -> HDMI) and did not notice any lag with mouse movements on screen for desktop use and for gaming. I use a highly sensitive mouse (Razer Diamondback 1600dpi) and play mainly first person shooters on the PC. Therefore, for the 805, I am assuming the video delay is neglible, if any. Remember, the 805 merely passes through the HDMI signal, and does not do any processing to it unless you decide to use the broken 720p feature in the hidden menu.

I've received some PMs from 875 and 905 who claimed that they have a video delay, since their receivers have an extra chip for the Reon video processing. They probably have it worse than us when it comes to realtime applications, although possibly better for movie watching, as both audio/video will be delayed.
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post #75 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 02:43 PM
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I've been researching this AVR for a while and after reading this thread and mutiple others on the lip synch problems, I don't think this one is going to work since I will be using it for a lot of gaming. Is there any other AVR around the same price that has round about the same features?
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post #76 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 03:21 PM
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Below I did some math to see how much reduction in delay we get (in milliseconds) per each 10 feet of distance we add to our onkyo speaker distance settings.

Code:
The Math:

1st we need to get our feet (distance) since Onkyo speaker distance 
is measured in feet. We also need to get our (speed) in order to figure out (time)

The speed of sound is 769 mph and there are 5,280 feet per mile 

Therefore, our (speed) of sound is 4,060,320 feet per hour
(I converted to feet since thats the distance measurement I want to work in.)

Now for the formula using 10 feet as my speaker (distance):
Equation: time = distance ÷ speed
[10 feet (speaker distance)] ÷ [4,060,320 (ft. per hour)] = 0.000002463 (of 1 hour)
(approx., I had to round up a tiny bit my calculator stopped working number was to big)

Now to convert this to milliseconds since thats what our onkyo does on the A/V delay window....
1 hour = 60 minutes = 3600 seconds = 3,600,000 milliseconds

0.000002463 X  3,600,000 = 8.86 milliseconds
So for every 10 feet you add to the onkyo speaker distance you get about about 8.86 milliseconds of reduced delay

(Its ironic thats its very nearly 1 millisecond per 1 foot.)
So thats approximately 1 more tick on the extreme end of the slider bar on our Onkyo, per every extra 10 feet you add of speaker distance (every tick on AV delay setting menu is 10 ms, so this is close to 1 tick).. it may just be enough to give that lil extra added delay shift we need.

I will have to see how it plays out. One device I need it set to 0 to work properly another device I need it set to 250 to work properly. So only one of these will benefit by reducing delay. The other is going to suffer even further. However, knowing that changing the speaker distance can have an effect on my delay times... it just gives me one more setting to play around with and tweak.

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post #77 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 04:19 PM
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The 805 has 3 DSPs. I believe the 705/805/875/905 all have 3, while the 605 has 2.

Obviously a "negative delay" is out of the question, at least until Marty McFly invents the flux-capacitor and even then I heard it requires quite a lot of electricity However, a video delay would do the trick, but I gather it would require large amounts of RAM to buffer 1080/60p video for any length of time.
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post #78 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woots View Post

Below I did some math to see how much reduction in delay we get (in milliseconds) per each 10 feet of distance we add to our onkyo speaker distance settings.

Code:
The Math:

1st we need to get our feet (distance) since Onkyo speaker distance 
is measured in feet. We also need to get our (speed) in order to figure out (time)

The speed of sound is 769 mph and there are 5,280 feet per mile 

Therefore, our (speed) of sound is 4,060,320 feet per hour
(I converted to feet since thats the distance measurement I want to work in.)

Now for the formula using 10 feet as my speaker (distance):
Equation: time = distance ÷ speed
[10 feet (speaker distance)] ÷ [4,060,320 (ft. per hour)] = 0.000002463 (of 1 hour)
(approx., I had to round up a tiny bit my calculator stopped working number was to big)

Now to convert this to milliseconds since thats what our onkyo does on the A/V delay window....
1 hour = 60 minutes = 3600 seconds = 3,600,000 milliseconds

0.000002463 X  3,600,000 = 8.86 milliseconds
So for every 10 feet you add to the onkyo speaker distance you get about about 8.86 milliseconds of reduced delay

(Its ironic thats its very nearly 1 millisecond per 1 foot.)
So thats approximately 1 more tick on the extreme end of the slider bar on our Onkyo, per every extra 10 feet you add of speaker distance (every tick on AV delay setting menu is 10 ms, so this is close to 1 tick).. it may just be enough to give that lil extra added delay shift we need.

I will have to see how it plays out. One device I need it set to 0 to work properly another device I need it set to 250 to work properly. So only one of these will benefit by reducing delay. The other is going to suffer even further. However, knowing that changing the speaker distance can have an effect on my delay times... it just gives me one more setting to play around with and tweak.

I think there is something else at play here other then just reducing delay. I added about 15 feet to all my speakers (bumping them all close to 30ft) and without having to go into delay settings and tweak (like i thought I was going to have to) the delay seemed to fix itself... even on pain in the butt channels like TNT HD... very weird.. just letting you all know adding distance helps the delay issues.

Perhaps those with large speaker distance settings to begin with never noticed this problem cause the distance was negating the issue for them. I have this setup installed in a bedroom.. so the distances I had set were not very far.. so by bumping up the distance it helped me a lot.

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post #79 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 07:16 PM
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I hate to be a jerk here, but while the math sounds good. It is actually flawed. It is not sound that travels down the speaker wire. It is electricity that makes a magnetic charge on a voice coil which reacts with a magnet which makes a cone move which... So the fact that you add 10 feet of speaker wire really doesn't matter because it is not traveling at the speed of sound, it is travelling at the speed of electricity (light) which is 299,792,458 m/s. Now you can do all the converting you want, but trust me, once you take out the speed of sound and insert the speed of light, the distance of your speaker wire can be measured in miles instead of feet

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post #80 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 07:36 PM
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wow, this is making my head spin. Let me see if I have this right.

1. The audio delay happens when a digital source is used, but goes away if an analog stereo source is selected. So I can avoid a delay when gaming if I choose stereo instead of surround sound?

2. otherwise, in the case of movies, I want to run both audio and video through the unit so that both are processed by the receiver?
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post #81 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfromco View Post

wow, this is making my head spin. Let me see if I have this right.

1. The audio delay happens when a digital source is used, but goes away if an analog stereo source is selected. So I can avoid a delay when gaming if I choose stereo instead of surround sound?

2. otherwise, in the case of movies, I want to run both audio and video through the unit so that both are processed by the receiver?

Yes but you can still game in surround if you use the 5.1 analog inputs. But you must have a source, i.e. computer sound card, that can output it.

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post #82 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzyfromco View Post

wow, this is making my head spin. Let me see if I have this right.

1. The audio delay happens when a digital source is used, but goes away if an analog stereo source is selected. So I can avoid a delay when gaming if I choose stereo instead of surround sound?

2. otherwise, in the case of movies, I want to run both audio and video through the unit so that both are processed by the receiver?

1. It must be the MultiChannel inputs that you use. The delay affects all the analog stereo RCA inputs as well, not just the digital inputs.

2. For movies/videos, you should probabaly use a digital connection for processing, as I feel the delay is not noticeable for that application. You still should try to maximize the speaker distances though, which seems to help people out.

Gaming in surround is not too hard if you have a PC that has 5.1 analog ouputs, but its harder if you have a gaming console (like xbox360/ps3) that has only digital ouputs for surround. In this case, you would need a seperate external dolbydigita/dts decoder (rare these days) to aid in this process if you want 5.1 surround with no delay.
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post #83 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pameredith View Post

I hate to be a jerk here, but while the math sounds good. It is actually flawed. It is not sound that travels down the speaker wire. It is electricity that makes a magnetic charge on a voice coil which reacts with a magnet which makes a cone move which... So the fact that you add 10 feet of speaker wire really doesn't matter because it is not traveling at the speed of sound, it is travelling at the speed of electricity (light) which is 299,792,458 m/s. Now you can do all the converting you want, but trust me, once you take out the speed of sound and insert the speed of light, the distance of your speaker wire can be measured in miles instead of feet

Its not flawed your understanding of delay is flawed:

That math I did was to determine the time it takes for sound coming from the speaker traveling a given distance to your ears. The duration of time delay you get from electricity is insanely small especially on such a short distance. Its ridiculous to add that factor in.

The distance set in the receiver "could" also mathematical compensate for electrical speed of wire over that given distance (which i doubt since its so insignificant and the maximum distance in these receivers is 30 foot per channel).. not a serious delay, even if you use low end radio shack speaker wire and the electricity is slowed down to 50% the speed of light.

The primary thing I know this receiver has to calculate for is the speed of sound based on distance of the speakers (which are producing the sound), Once it knows the distance it just sets the delay for each channel based on that distance.

I wanted to have a fairly accurate number to know how much of a time shift its gives per foot...especially since it seems like we have to use it to tweak our systems for delay.

When I 1st read that increasing the distance would change the delay.. I had my doubts being that we were talking about such short distances. I did this to prove whether or not there is enough of a shift in time that this is plausible... as you can see above it is.

PS: If you wanted to entertain the inclusion of the speed of electricity... even at 50% speed of light (some expensive cables claim up to 90% speed of light, like Valhalla cables)... however, even at 50% the speed of light thats 495 million "feet" per second... not worth calculating for .. there is no way your ears and eyes function fast enough in your brain to detect such a minuscule delay. (not for a 30 foot distance based on that speed)

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post #84 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 08:44 PM
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Ok, well lets just say that we agree that it has nothing to do with the length of the speaker wire, which is what I thought you were saying. If the speaker physically moves to a different location, that is a different story.

I can't believe I missed ALL of the highlights you made in your posts refering to, "So for every 10 feet you add to the onkyo speaker distance you get about about 8.86 milliseconds of reduced delay" I must be BLIND.

And yes I do think that considering the speed of electricity in this discussion is silly, which is why I didn't bother to do the math.

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post #85 of 385 Old 09-27-2007, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

The 805 has 3 DSPs. I believe the 705/805/875/905 all have 3, while the 605 has 2.

I thought that the 605 only had one but I certainly could be mistaken.
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post #86 of 385 Old 09-28-2007, 05:30 AM
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I haven't thought too much into the math part and I can't verify it, but Woots theory does somewhat correlate to the data i recorded with the 805's spkr distance settings:

0 ft = 76ms of delay
30 ft = 47ms of delay

So yes, one could deduce from these values that roughly every feet you add to the distance, you decrease 1 ms of delay.

Keep in mind that this is with a mic pointed at the speaker from only a 6 inch distance in order to minimize the delay. Optimally, you'd want a delay of 0ms at 0 feet but unforutnately, this is not the case with the 805.

Just to reiterate, I basically just measured the echo between the original source and the sound coming from the speakers. I measured the waveforms to find these values. It's not an exact scientific measurement, but i feel that it is very close to the true values.
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post #87 of 385 Old 09-28-2007, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxxxx View Post

I thought that the 605 only had one but I certainly could be mistaken.

Only one DSP firmware shows up in the firmware listing in the AVR. It doesn't mean that there isn't more than one chip but I believe that early on an insider said one chip. One or two, what the hey.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
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post #88 of 385 Old 09-28-2007, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgribbles View Post

Only one DSP firmware shows up in the firmware listing in the AVR. It doesn't mean that there isn't more than one chip but I believe that early on an insider said one chip. One or two, what the hey.

Just relevant delay-wise (more delay with two chips than one).
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post #89 of 385 Old 09-28-2007, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyGoD View Post

1. It must be the MultiChannel inputs that you use. The delay affects all the analog stereo RCA inputs as well, not just the digital inputs.

2. For movies/videos, you should probabaly use a digital connection for processing, as I feel the delay is not noticeable for that application. You still should try to maximize the speaker distances though, which seems to help people out.

Gaming in surround is not too hard if you have a PC that has 5.1 analog ouputs, but its harder if you have a gaming console (like xbox360/ps3) that has only digital ouputs for surround. In this case, you would need a seperate external dolbydigita/dts decoder (rare these days) to aid in this process if you want 5.1 surround with no delay.

I have an 875 and can confirm the same problem. Doesn't particularly bother me for TV, movies or even most games, but it definitely makes Guitar Hero nearly impossible to play properly. I can also confirm that using an external DD decoder hooked up to the multichannel input does fix the problem. I managed to find a Sony SDP-EP9ES for about US$100 here in Australia. OK yes its a pain in the a$$ having to spend the extra cash but as a work around to fix the one thing that annoys me with the Onkyo, that I'm otherwise 99% happy with, its worth it to me. Bring on Guitar Hero 3 and Rock Band!
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post #90 of 385 Old 09-28-2007, 02:11 PM
 
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MonkeyGoD,

When you tested with the 30ft distance, were all the speakers set to 30? I thought the whole distance delay is relative. So if all channels were set to 15ft except one that is set to 17ft the there is no delay between channels that are equal and the 15ft channel signals would delayed by 2ms compared to the 17ft no delay applied (ie. 17 ft max distance would apply to a zero delay)

I could see setting one channel at 30ft and all the others at 1ft and the resulting delay would be 29ms in the 1ft channels.

Again I would think that the largest distance becomes the reference channel for distance and the reference channel would have a delay of 0ms with all the delays being determined against the reference channel.

I guess to me it just seems backwards that setting all channels at 30ft or 15ft would result in different overall delays with the inputs AV delays set to zero.
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