"The" Onkyo TX-SR875 Thread - Page 10 - AVS Forum
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post #271 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

We would use the RS232 port for firmware upgrades. It works easily. I use a USB to Serial Adapter cable (RS232)... New owners may want to think about getting one...

That's how I did Upgrade 1 on my Onkyo TX-DS989. I still have the disk and the serial cable that came with it.

HD-A1 + XBOX Add-On + PS3 = Format Neutral
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post #272 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 07:11 PM
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Perfect! Hold onto that cable.

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
Check out my Dolby Atmos/Surround first take:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1409517748063
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post #273 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 07:26 PM
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[quote=sc2005]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 40W2000 View Post

.... and if you want to compare these:
875 <-> 3808
http://www.theosfiles.com/zzz/receiv...vs_3808CI.html
905 <-> 4308
http://www.theosfiles.com/zzz/receiv...vs_4308CI.html

Mad comparison matrix! Do you know of similar for all denon and all onkyo?

Sorry these two comparisons are all I made (after spending way too much time on them!) I just updated the 875 data with the latest published Onkyo specifications (very minor changes).

Having been on the fence for quite awhile on all four of these babies, I've finally ended up ordering a 905.
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post #274 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 07:32 PM
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Can anybody explain the idea of having the only 12-volt trigger work on zone 2? Is there a way to get that to fire when the receiver is turned on? I like what this receiver offers, but I need a way to turn on my subs through my Panamax surge suppressor automatically.
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post #275 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TazExprez View Post

That's how I did Upgrade 1 on my Onkyo TX-DS989. I still have the disk and the serial cable that came with it.

Can someone explain in lay-mans term how I would do this? and where would we get the firmware upgrade? From Onkyo?
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post #276 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

I emailed Onkyo yesterday regarding the HDMI handshaking problem and asked
them whether the 875 is SW/FW upgradable by the End User. If Onkyo reply
I will post it here.

svalley,

Have you tried the HDMI handshaking without the PS3 connected at all? I am just curious if one of those components is causing the issue. I know that doesn't solve your issue but it would be nice to maybe pin point a cause if there is one outside of the Onkyo. Also, maybe try swapping cables around, doesn't make sense that would be a cause but you never know.

Good luck resolving your issue!
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post #277 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:29 PM
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All right guys I just picked up my 875 and did some initial testing.

Here is my setup. PS3, Dish 411, HDA1 ~ Onkyo 875 ~ Epson TW700

First thing, I am seemingly not having the problem of my HDA1 connecting like svalley is. It takes longer than my Pioneer but it grabs a signal.

Mine is exhibiting the "popping" as others have mentioned. It does it on the PS3 menu and also when going into the Tosh setup screen. I haven't heard it through the short movie watching I did.

This thing runs friggin hot. After about an hour of playing around I can't hold my hand on the center of it. Fortunately it's in a completely open area.

For those leaving this in the main room, the unit is unable to be dimmed completely , which I find surprising.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not too impressed with the video presentation thus far. The picture seems more washed out than when running my Pioneer. I have both Tosh and PS3 outputting 1080i, and the 875 scaling it to 720p. I cannot make a definitive call though until I have a chance to calibrate it with Avia. I also need to play around with the sound options as it seems more compressed than it was with my Pioneer. I setup everything with the Audessey but something just doesn't sound right. Playing Stealth the imaging just seems a little off. Fly by's don't have the same conviction they used to.

I also can't figure out how to get the display to show TruHD. Do you have to have a 1.3 player for this to show on the display. Right now it shows PLIIx no matter what I select. The little window is lit showing PCM which is a given.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things I did like. You can set the startup volume to default to a certain db everytime you start the unit. You can also enter the maximum volume as well. I have the maximum set at -5. This is handy if you've ever sat on the remote like me and about blow out your ear drums. You can also set the default for certain codecs. Example: everytime the receiver sees a TruHD flag it automatically changes is to PLIIX. This can be done with all audio formats.

These obviously aren't what the perspective 875 owners want to know but I thought I'd add it.

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post #278 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

All right guys I just picked up my 875 and did some initial testing.

Here is my setup. PS3, Dish 411, HDA1 ~ Onkyo 875 ~ Epson TW700

First thing, I am seemingly not having the problem of my HDA1 connecting like svalley is. It takes longer than my Pioneer but it grabs a signal.

Mine is exhibiting the "popping" as others have mentioned. It does it on the PS3 menu and also when going into the Tosh setup screen. I haven't heard it through the short movie watching I did.

This thing runs friggin hot. After about an hour of playing around I can't hold my hand on the center of it. Fortunately it's in a completely open area.

For those leaving this in the main room, the unit is unable to be dimmed completely , which I find surprising.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not too impressed with the video presentation thus far. The picture seems more washed out than when running my Pioneer. I have both Tosh and PS3 outputting 1080i, and the 875 scaling it to 720p. I cannot make a definitive call though until I have a chance to calibrate it with Avia. I also need to play around with the sound options as it seems more compressed than it was with my Pioneer. I setup everything with the Audessey but something just doesn't sound right. Playing Stealth the imaging just seems a little off. Fly by's don't have the same conviction they used to.

I also can't figure out how to get the display to show TruHD. Do you have to have a 1.3 player for this to show on the display. Right now it shows PLIIx no matter what I select. The little window is lit showing PCM which is a given.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things I did like. You can set the startup volume to default to a certain db everytime you start the unit. You can also enter the master volume as well. I have the master set at -5. This is handy if you've ever sat on the remote like me and about blow out your ear drums. You can also set the default for certain codecs. Example: everytime the receiver sees a TruHD flag it automatically changes is to PLIIX. This can be done with all audio formats.

These obviously aren't what the perspective 875 owners want to know but I thought I'd add it.

Which Pioneer AVR did your 875 replace? I have a 74 and would like to go with either the 875 or 905.
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post #279 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:42 PM
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From what I've gathered reading the various HDMI threads here is that you'll have to have a player that supports HDMI 1.3, it will have to allow the TrueHD to go out unprocessed, and the software will also have to allow that or else you will get PCM for each channel, which is fine since it's just the uncompressed form of the TrueHD signal.

Unless I'm mistaken, the result is that having TrueHD processing in the receiver is really not a big deal since you'll probably never use it. But better safe than sorry IMO.
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post #280 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mskreis View Post

Which Pioneer AVR did your 875 replace? I have a 74 and would like to go with either the 875 or 905.

84

Quote:


From what I've gathered reading the various HDMI threads here is that you'll have to have a player that supports HDMI 1.3, it will have to allow the TrueHD to go out unprocessed, and the software will also have to allow that or else you will get PCM for each channel, which is fine since it's just the uncompressed form of the TrueHD signal.

Unless I'm mistaken, the result is that having TrueHD processing in the receiver is really not a big deal since you'll probably never use it. But better safe than sorry IMO.

I guess either I misunderstood, or just read more into than what was the case. I completely understand the zipped in the player vs. receiver bit. I was under the impression that even as a PCM source the receiver would be able to detect a truhd, dtshd, etc. signal and display it. Maybe I had too high hopes for this unit. During the initial phase I really am not that impressed over the 84 it replaced.

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post #281 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:08 PM
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How in the hell could Onkyo NOT have been aware of the spkr popping issue?
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post #282 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:10 PM
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Man Oh Man! I'm starting to get nervous about my 905 pre-order. I've got really high hopes for it. I.e. reon implementation and heat dispersion. I hope the "popping" is just the transistors breaking themselves in and will disappear soon.
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post #283 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkgriffin View Post

I am going with the 905 or 4308 which both have 2 HDMI out and I will run them both to the TV and calibrate those two on the display. Not perfect but cheaper than getting a stand alone VP.

Now that's a clever solution!

The two HDMI inputs I would tweak in the display would be from my cable and HTPC. I can tweak my DVD (and eventually HD-DVD/Blu-ray) input at the player.

Would definitely need a remote with macros to make the necessary settings when changing sources. Hmm...the cost keeps creaping upward, but your right, still cheaper that a VP.
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post #284 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post

Man Oh Man! I'm starting to get nervous about my 905 pre-order. I've got really high hopes for it. I.e. reon implementation and heat dispersion. I hope the "popping" is just the transistors breaking themselves in and will disappear soon.

The 905 might run cooler as the amp section is different. I have had some hot avr's, but this one definitely beats them all. I would be really nervous putting this in a cabinet. Unfortunately I don't think the popping is going to go away. You can hear the relay's clicking when trying to pickup a source (which is funny, my 84 was dead quiet unless you switched to a tv/sat input, then you could hear a click from the relay), but the popping is very noticable. It isn't a huge deal as it only happens in the blu ray menu or HDDVD setup screen, so far, but annoying nevertheless.

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post #285 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

84



I guess either I misunderstood, or just read more into than what was the case. I completely understand the zipped in the player vs. receiver bit. I was under the impression that even as a PCM source the receiver would be able to detect a truhd, dtshd, etc. signal and display it. Maybe I had too high hopes for this unit. During the initial phase I really am not that impressed over the 84 it replaced.

Yeah currently there is no players that will output TrueHD, etc, to a receiver so it can process it. All the receicer sees is PCM, it can't tell if it is TrueHd or something else. There is a new Blu-Ray player coming out and I am sure more to come that will be HDMI 1.3 and output bitstream. Then you can choose to have the receiver decode it so you get the fancy little light to turn on

Not really sure there is any SQ advantage to that however.
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post #286 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:45 PM
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Do you have the ability to test if the 875 can take the hdmi input and ouput it over component, while upscaling the hdmi signal? The only other major concern is if it can take an sd signal via component and upscale it to hd over component as well. My PJ has component input only., and after this I'll have to wait awhile before I can get a 1080p lcd. Thanks for any help. and I hope the popping goes away soon.
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post #287 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post

Do you have the ability to test if the 875 can take the hdmi input and ouput it over component, while upscaling the hdmi signal? The only other major concern is if it can take an sd signal via component and upscale it to hd over component as well. My PJ has component input only., and after this I'll have to wait awhile before I can get a 1080p lcd. Thanks for any help. and I hope the popping goes away soon.

Sorry, I can't help you there. This goes to my PJ at the back of the room via HDMI.

My main reason for buying this was of course the Reon, but also the Burr Brown DACS, which are awesome. Unfortunately neither of these seem to be a huge upgrade over my 84.

The other thing driving me nuts is the volume level that shows on the screen. Svalley how do you get rid of it?

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post #288 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

I guess either I misunderstood, or just read more into than what was the case. I completely understand the zipped in the player vs. receiver bit. I was under the impression that even as a PCM source the receiver would be able to detect a truhd, dtshd, etc. signal and display it. Maybe I had too high hopes for this unit. During the initial phase I really am not that impressed over the 84 it replaced.

Doesn't your Elite 84 also pass uncompressed PCM over HDMI? Therefore shouldn't the hi def audiio you get form BRD or HD DVD be just as good as what the 805 gives you?

I am very interested to hear how you find the 875 to compare to your Elite 84 in its audio performance.
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post #289 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

All right guys I just picked up my 875 and did some initial testing.

Here is my setup. PS3, Dish 411, HDA1 ~ Onkyo 875 ~ Epson TW700

First thing, I am seemingly not having the problem of my HDA1 connecting like svalley is. It takes longer than my Pioneer but it grabs a signal.

Mine is exhibiting the "popping" as others have mentioned. It does it on the PS3 menu and also when going into the Tosh setup screen. I haven't heard it through the short movie watching I did.

This thing runs friggin hot. After about an hour of playing around I can't hold my hand on the center of it. Fortunately it's in a completely open area.

For those leaving this in the main room, the unit is unable to be dimmed completely , which I find surprising.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am not too impressed with the video presentation thus far. The picture seems more washed out than when running my Pioneer. I have both Tosh and PS3 outputting 1080i, and the 875 scaling it to 720p. I cannot make a definitive call though until I have a chance to calibrate it with Avia. I also need to play around with the sound options as it seems more compressed than it was with my Pioneer. I setup everything with the Audessey but something just doesn't sound right. Playing Stealth the imaging just seems a little off. Fly by's don't have the same conviction they used to.

I also can't figure out how to get the display to show TruHD. Do you have to have a 1.3 player for this to show on the display. Right now it shows PLIIx no matter what I select. The little window is lit showing PCM which is a given.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Things I did like. You can set the startup volume to default to a certain db everytime you start the unit. You can also enter the maximum volume as well. I have the maximum set at -5. This is handy if you've ever sat on the remote like me and about blow out your ear drums. You can also set the default for certain codecs. Example: everytime the receiver sees a TruHD flag it automatically changes is to PLIIX. This can be done with all audio formats.

These obviously aren't what the perspective 875 owners want to know but I thought I'd add it.

The 875 does something to the brightness and I had to the turn brightness down.
After you use AVIA to set the brightness, your wash out problem should go away.
Let me know whether HDDVD looks better with the 875?

Yes, 875 pop like crazy during movie bootup, but once I get to title screen, the
pop goes away. I think Joerod said it is PS3 problem.

You don't have the handshaking problem? Pretty much everytime I exit setup
OSD, 875 have handshaking problem with HDA1 and HR20.
I have PS3 connects to HDMI1, HR20 to HDMI2, and HDA1 to HDMI3.
How are you connecting yours?
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post #290 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 10:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Sorry, I can't help you there. This goes to my PJ at the back of the room via HDMI.

My main reason for buying this was of course the Reon, but also the Burr Brown DACS, which are awesome. Unfortunately neither of these seem to be a huge upgrade over my 84.

The other thing driving me nuts is the volume level that shows on the screen. Svalley how do you get rid of it?

From Setup->6.Miscellaneous->OSD Setup->Immediate Display(stupid name) = off
The on screen volume will go away.
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post #291 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 10:38 PM
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wow, I just read the entire spkr popping poll thread.

not at all encouraging.

30% w/ a persistent pop is 360-type numbers.

I was particularly disappointed to see that it even is happening w/ folks that are just using their 805's as pre/pro's...
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post #292 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcp2 View Post

Do you have the ability to test if the 875 can take the hdmi input and ouput it over component, while upscaling the hdmi signal?


You can not convert HDMI to component, if that's what you are asking.
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post #293 of 6055 Old 07-21-2007, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

Doesn't your Elite 84 also pass uncompressed PCM over HDMI? Therefore shouldn't the hi def audiio you get form BRD or HD DVD be just as good as what the 805 gives you?

I am very interested to hear how you find the 875 to compare to your Elite 84 in its audio performance.

Yes, my 84 passed PCM over HDMI, however I had one of the first 84's that had the LFE glitch. That was one of my only reasons for replacing it. Even though they both pass PCM, the internal DAC's will play a part in the sound. My old 3805 was really smooth and seemed more at home playing a SACD/DVDA, where the 84 was more of an in your face presentation with more lively surrounds beneficial to movies.

Quote:


The 875 does something to the brightness and I had to the turn brightness down.
After you use AVIA to set the brightness, your wash out problem should go away.
Let me know whether HDDVD looks better with the 875?

I will definitely have to calibrate it. I am currently waiting on an order for DVE HD.
Right now both HDDVD and Blu Ray look washed out and without any contrast. I tried The Ant Bully and the colors were way off. I'm surprised the Reon is throwing things that out of whack.

Quote:


Yes, 875 pop like crazy during movie bootup, but once I get to title screen, the
pop goes away. I think Joerod said it is PS3 problem.

As I mentioned earlier I get it with the PS3, but also my HDA1 when I enter the setup screen. It's not a ton just a couple here and there. Definitely annoying though. It's not a PS3 problem as Onkyo suggests because it never happened with my Pioneer.

Quote:


You don't have the handshaking problem? Pretty much everytime I exit setup
OSD, 875 have handshaking problem with HDA1 and HR20.
I have PS3 connects to HDMI1, HR20 to HDMI2, and HDA1 to HDMI3.
How are you connecting yours?

I don't have any problems with any of my components connected via HDMI. They take a long time to register but no dropouts. I am connected HDA1 to input 3 and PS3 to input 1. I don't have my Dish 411 hooked up via HDMI yet as my Pioneer for some strange reason wouldn't hand shake with it. Currently it is connected via component. Let me tell you there is something wrong with my sat setup though. Either the 875 doesn't like component in or something. The quality is terrible, even on HD channels (jaggies, soft), but the strange thing is the regular channels are not displaying properly. Some of them are filling the screen but I'm still getting overscan, others are filling up the middle leaving a 12" border all the way around, and some are filling up all but about 12" on one side.


P.S. Thanks for the input on the volume.

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post #294 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 12:06 AM
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As for the TrueHD and HDMI 1.3, isnt the PS3 HDMI 1.3 and the 875 is also 1.3 HDMI, so shouldnt it say True HD instead of just PCM?
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post #295 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 12:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuna View Post

As for the TrueHD and HDMI 1.3, isnt the PS3 HDMI 1.3 and the 875 is also 1.3 HDMI, so shouldnt it say True HD instead of just PCM?

No.

The PS3 has an older Sil9132 HDMI 1.3 transmitter that supports Deep Color. The ability to pass the TrueHD and DTS-HD bitstreams over HDMI was reportedly introduced with the newer Sil9134 part. Of course, the PS3 will still internally decode TrueHD and pass it to a receiver as LPCM.

Furthermore, the presence of the Sil9134 HDMI 1.3 transmitter does not guarantee that a player can pass the undecoded TrueHD and DTS-HD bitstreams to a receiver for decoding. That feature must be supported in the player firmware. The first Blu-ray players with this 'feature' are expected in the September/October timeframe. More information is available in this thread.

Note: I was never able to get confirmation on the limitations of the Sil9132 from Silicon Image, but such was reported by other members.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

Some of them are filling the screen but I'm still getting overscan, others are filling up the middle leaving a 12" border all the way around, and some are filling up all but about 12" on one side.

Any chance you could post some screenshots to illustrate what you are seeing? And try HDMI to see if it resolves the problem?

Perhaps you could also clarify whether your Dish Network receiver is able to pass all formats natively (480i as 480i, 720p as 720p, 1080i as 1080i, etc). I know that feature was missing on the ViP622 DVR. If you've set the Dish receiver to pass all formats as 720p, and the Onkyo is set to 720p, then no processing is done at all (aside from A/D conversion for component -> HDMI). When the input resolution is same as the Onkyo's output resolution, digital signals are passed without processing.

I assume HDMI Monitor is set to YES and Resolution is set to 720p? And under OSD Setup, you set your TV to 16:9 with NTSC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bass addict View Post

As I mentioned earlier I get it with the PS3, but also my HDA1 when I enter the setup screen. It's not a ton just a couple here and there. Definitely annoying though. It's not a PS3 problem as Onkyo suggests because it never happened with my Pioneer.

Have you tried setting the Listening Mode Presets for the inputs used by the PS3 and HD-A1? It's described on page 84 of the manual and believe it alleviated switching issues for some 805 owners. Specifically, try setting all selections on a given input to the same listening mode and see if that helps.
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post #296 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 01:14 AM
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I currently have a Sony DG1000 that I will be upgrading and I don't get a single "pop" at all when loading movies with the PS3. It might be a PS3 issue but, it isn't affecting all receivers.
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post #297 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 03:55 AM
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Hmm, I've got a 875 on pre-order. If this speaker popping issue turns out to be as big a problem as it appears to me right now (as well as HDMI handshake issues, video settings, etc) I'm not sure if I should go ahead, or cancel and wait for more reports. Almost all of the specs favor the Onkyo over Denon (and Pio, from what I gather, as well as upcoming Yammy); however I need something livable. This will go in a family room setting, and will be used for sound by my wife and others. It can't be full of bugs or QC issues. I'll wait for more data points, but so far it does't sound encouraging. I can live without lossless sound via HDMI for the time being, if other manufacturers have similar issues.

Hal
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post #298 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

I emailed Onkyo yesterday regarding the HDMI handshaking problem and asked
them whether the 875 is SW/FW upgradable by the End User. If Onkyo reply
I will post it here.

Great. I hope they will confirm it!

BTW have you the same heat problem than bass addict?

Thanks a lot for your time to answer all those questions!
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post #299 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 04:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post

Hmm, I've got a 875 on pre-order. If this speaker popping issue turns out to be as big a problem as it appears to me right now (as well as HDMI handshake issues, video settings, etc) I'm not sure if I should go ahead, or cancel and wait for more reports. Almost all of the specs favor the Onkyo over Denon (and Pio, from what I gather, as well as upcoming Yammy); however I need something livable. This will go in a family room setting, and will be used for sound by my wife and others. It can't be full of bugs or QC issues. I'll wait for more data points, but so far it does't sound encouraging. I can live without lossless sound via HDMI for the time being, if other manufacturers have similar issues.

I have the same needs and I already decided to wait for more reports, unless Onkyo confirms that firmware upgrades are possible: I guess that HDMI/HDCP handshaking problems will happen with such or such equipment since one manufacturer can't test all combinations of all other equipments on the market. Now I just stay away from products that are not field upgradable by the end user, whatever the manufacturer is, to avoid being stuck with a bugged product.

(The heat problem reported by bass addict is also a concern)
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post #300 of 6055 Old 07-22-2007, 08:52 AM
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I decided on the 875 and ordered from One Call (they gave me 10% off). It should be here Tuesday. I'm looking forward to seeing what it does with upscaling everything. Have a great week everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LushMojo View Post

I'm using a Sony KDL46XDR (1080p LCD panel) with Comcast HD receiver, Sony upscaling DVD player, Xbox360 and a very shortly a MacMini. I'm connecting the HD receiver and DVD player via HDMI and the Xbox360 via component. The MacMini will either go DVI->HDMI or just via VGA (not sure yet). We primarily watch movies on HD and rarely a DVD. We don't watch much SD. I have no real plans to buy Blu-Ray or HDDVD.

I was going to get a Sony STR-DG910 so that I could connect everything to the receiver and just feed one HDMI connection to the LCD panel. I ordered it through ******* and now it's backordered for maybe two weeks (even though many other places have it in stock right now).

In the meantime, I started researching the Onkyo TX-SR875 and 805 models (big mistake). I'm wondering if I can justify the fairly large price increase from the Sony. Based on my setup are there any opinions on whether I should just stick with the Sony or should I get the 875 or 805? I like the "future proofing" of the 875. Currently, my theatre setup has shrunk to a Polk Surroundbar and Infinity PS-12 sub (mainly because I needed the theatre space for office/study space for med school studies).

Any thoughts or advice on the purchase? ******* offered me one hundred off the retail price on the 875. Can I do better? Thanks in advance for any suggestions. The 1080p upscaling of the 875 certainly is tempting.

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