"The" Onkyo TX-SR875 Thread - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 07:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joerod View Post

I am getting some sleep since I have been up all night. Quickly though the 1080i deinterlacing into 1080p is where I was really impressed. My DirecTV HD DVRs looked great doing 1080i into it. I also like the fact that you can pick either pass through or any resolution to send out (the main ones). Anyway, I do not work for Onkyo, I do not want to seem like a cheerleader. If I find a quirk I will be the first to post about it. Trust me. Anyway, I do not believe in settting most STBs in native mode these days. Especially cable ones! You can try but almost all scaling devices will have a couple second delays until it finds the res and then correctly deinterlaces it. Some people can't wait 2 to 3 seconds. I can't! I like having those devices do 1080i out and then let the 875 do 1080p for you. Going 480i to 1080p in most VPs takes a little bit. ANd you know as long as you send in 1080i the results can be quite good anyway. I have been blown away by it so far. I am still planning on getting the 905 but it is not an easy decision because I feel like I have everything right here. And also for those reading there is no hum issues. There is also no AV sync issues either. And finally not one of my speakers popped! I would also like to go on record and say the HQV chip is right on par as the XA2 chip. Which to me is a really good thing. If I did not have a decent VP then getting a receiver is a must with this chip in it. Especially if I still watch a lot of SD content (I personally do not) or SD dvds. I will give a lot more details soon, I just need a little nap. Feel free to ask questions here or PM me. I will tell you like it is. The bottom line is if you are only using Blu ray and a HD DVD player at 1080p then the 805 will do just fine. But if you want to have top scaling for 480i or 1080i (I would personaly do 1080i whenever possible) sources then the 875 or soon to be released 905 is a must. The 875 will be fine for most. Only sick people like myself will reach out for the 905. If you have the means though and are on the fence, the 875 will quickly make you forget about the other options (805 or 905). As I mentioned earlier, the OSD is perfect, the features are very nice, the picture Q is top notch.As is the sound! One day when they offer the amount of options and control as the VP it will be on the endangered species list... More to come...

Yep, 1080i to 1080p upscaling is the most impressed thing that the 875 does.
Like I said before my HDDVD never looks this great before when I connect the
HDA1 straight to my TV.

For popping, Bass and myself have problem with PS3 being the source (which
you are not using) I have no speaking popping from my other sources.

I just updated my PS3 to FW1.9 last night, and I tried to play CD with
178khz (up sample) the 875 accepted it and it sounds really really good.
The only problem is it must use HDMI out, and fool the 875 it is a 5.1 sound
instead of 2 channels, so I can't apply any DSP process to make it more
than 2 channels out. I also tried to force 1080p/24 on PS3, and the 875
pass it to my TV without problem.
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post #632 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 07:20 AM
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So you can really tell a difference watching the DVR program in 1080i vs. upscaled to 1080p on the 875? That has been my debate about buying the 875 or not...
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post #633 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 07:28 AM
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Thanks for all the comments so far from those lucky enough to have the 875.

Just a quick question, I've got 46" Samsung 1080P LCD, and also an ASUS D22 HTPC which I plan to use for avi's (some 1080P MKV's), TV (mainly SD in Oz) and SDDVDs. It does output 1080P through HDMI, but I'm wondering is this the same as upscaling TV/DVD's that the REON does? I set the HTPC to 1920 x 1080, how do I tell if it's 1080P or should I be forcing a lower resolution and letting the Reon do the work? Also considering 360 HDDVD as a cheap add-on.

If not I may just get the 805, the extra cash just to upscale the Wii (which looks pretty bad on the 1080P panel) seems a lot.

Would appreciate any thoughts...
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post #634 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

Just a thought. Maybe it's the STB that creates the delay in switching resolutions? Then having it set to native would cause the delay whether it then goes into the Reon or not.

Also, in reference to you and to the other guy that asked about whether it would help his 1080i cable/satellite output: joerod seems to be raving mostly about this deinterlacing feature. And he said that he doesn't bother with native output, leaving output at 1080i. So he doesn't seem to feel that this loses a lot of the benefit. In fact, it appears it's a key strength, one I'm very excited about.

A couple of thoughts here facenorth. You may be correct in that the STB may be creating the delay when it's set to 'native', but I was always under the impression that the TV was the prime factor in this delay as it needed to resynch. That's why I asked if there was any delay when the Onkyo is set to a constant 1080i output. If the delay is exactly the same as if you had connected the STB directly to the TV, then you are correct, it would be the STB causing the delay. I do know if the STB is set to native and the Onkyo to a constant output resolution, you should never see the TV losing and reacquiring synch.

As for the deinterlacing, I think that all depends on your TV. If your TV does a perfect job deinterlacing (as I believe the Pioneer and Fujitsu do), then there's nothing to be gained by having the Onkyo do it. Perhaps bfdtv can confirm that.

But I think the important point here is, if you can tolerate the delay in resolution switching between channels, the Onkyo 'should' do a better job scaling a 480i channel than the STB. But if you don't want to put up with the delay (as Joe and I don't), then you're forced to omit that potential of the Reon processing and just benefit from its deinterlacing (assuming your TV doesn't deinterlace properly).
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post #635 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 07:56 AM
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if i get an 875 can i watch a HDMI input while listening to the audio from the analog 7.1ch input

example and question would be hooking up my computer via HDMI while having the analog 7.1ch from my x-fi go into the 875, i am running vista ultimate and i use this for my htpc and some times games. should i set the vista mce to 1080i or p (which will do better, the REON or the computer) this will go into a new samsung 1080p LCD tv when it ships

also i assume that the 875 would accept 1080p/60 from my pc for games

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post #636 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techtvman View Post

if i get an 875 can i watch a HDMI input while listening to the audio from the analog 7.1ch input

example and question would be hooking up my computer via HDMI while having the analog 7.1ch from my x-fi go into the 875, i am running vista ultimate and i use this for my htpc and some times games. should i set the vista mce to 1080i or p (which will do better, the REON or the computer) this will go into a new samsung 1080p LCD tv when it ships

It should work, I listen to my MP3 thru PS3 this way. First I switch to the HDMI
input that has the PS3 connected to, then tell the 875 to go to CD input (optical).
I have to do this to get 7.1 sounds for my MP3 (PS3 send 5.1 PCM thru HDMI
but only 2 channels for optical) This way 875 output video from HDMI, and
output sound from optical, make sense?


Quote:
Originally Posted by techtvman View Post

also i assume that the 875 would accept 1080p/60 from my pc for games

I think it is your TV issue, since 875 doesn't touch 1080p signals, it just pass it to TV.
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post #637 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagofan View Post

So you can really tell a difference watching the DVR program in 1080i vs. upscaled to 1080p on the 875? That has been my debate about buying the 875 or not...

Yes, there is a different but don't expect night and day different (like go from SD -> HD)

To "me" the pictures seems to be more clear and solid after 875 upscaling from 1080i to 1080p
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post #638 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

That's exactly what I'm talking about

For my TV and my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD

1. STB set to Native/Passthrough - very slow with HDMI when changing resolutions (not acceptable delay)
2. STB set to Native/Passthrough - faster with component out (acceptable delay)
3. STB set to forced 1080i - fastest channel change no matter what channel

So given my TV behaves the same, I don't think some sort of delay going through the Reon should be surprising.

And I agree with the above post, it's not even clear that the Reon is at fault. How do you know that the set top box is not introducing the delay? There is clearly something adding a delay when using HDMI (extra handshaking going while it queries available resolutions, bit depth etc).

Remember though, if the delay without the Onkyo in the picture is the result of the TV having to resynch with channel resolution changes (when the STB is set to native) and not the STB causing the delay, then the Onkyo is indeed adding a delay when it's in the picture and set to a constant resolution output (STB still set to native).

Hope I'm making myself clear.
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post #639 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:24 AM
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As far as delay when changing channels and resolutions, why not just pick a channel and stick with it till the show's over? Sorry I couldn't help but quote my EX-wife for a moment. Joe, thanks a lot for your detailed review. If I could just ask one more thing. You mentioned earlier that you were going to try sd - hd conversion of component. I am very interested in your findings specifically in this area. With the price of the 905, I won't be replacing my PJ any time soon.
Thanks again JoeRod.
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post #640 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

We used to see this argument every day on AVS years ago. The fact is that 1080i is markedly superior in detail for static and nearly static scenes. What's interesting is that over 90% of scenes on TV are 'static or nearly static'. Also, the effects of interlacing are far less than they were with our old NTSC system. They are just not nearly as pronounced in the ATSC HD system.

Oh, and your idea about 1080i being nothing more than 540p twice is very wrong. There is measurably far more detail in a 1080i signal than a 720p signal. Now with that said, 720p can look amazing when done right and yes, it is better for really fast motion. Now let's qualify that, for fast video motion as opposed to film. If you're watching a 1080i movie with lots of fast action, 1080i will have no more artifacts than that same movie in 720p.

Thank you. That helps clarify that. Like I said, it wasn't MY idea that it was basically 540p...I just remember reading about that somewhere. I've only just barely bought my first HDTV a few weeks ago So I'm still learning all this stuff.

So with video games it would be safe to assume that it would definately be better to go with 720p than 1080i unless something like the REON would fix the fast motion artifacting.
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post #641 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

Yep, 1080i to 1080p upscaling is the most impressed thing that the 875 does.
Like I said before my HDDVD never looks this great before when I connect the
HDA1 straight to my TV.

Svalley & Bass, just out of curiosity, what TVs do you guys have. I'm assuming the TVs don't deinterlace properly or you wouldn't see a big difference. Most TVs don't, but units from Pioneer and Fujitsu along with some others do. So those TVs would not benefit from the excellent Reon deinterlacing.
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post #642 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Terry.P View Post

Who killed JR?

My thoughts exactly. I would cancel my pre-order and get it elsewhere if I could find one at the same price (and be assured that I didn't end up with nothing). Not worth the risk at this point I guess...

Did JR ask them to be carried individually to their warehouse from Japan?
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post #643 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warpdrive View Post

That's exactly what I'm talking about

For my TV and my Scientific Atlanta 8300HD

1. STB set to Native/Passthrough - very slow with HDMI when changing resolutions (not acceptable delay)
2. STB set to Native/Passthrough - faster with component out (acceptable delay)
3. STB set to forced 1080i - fastest channel change no matter what channel

So given my TV behaves the same, I don't think some sort of delay going through the Reon should be surprising.

And I agree with the above post, it's not even clear that the Reon is at fault. How do you know that the set top box is not introducing the delay? There is clearly something adding a delay when using HDMI (extra handshaking going while it queries available resolutions, bit depth etc).

Please explain this to me as I am clearly not as technically savey as many on this thread. If I set by Directv box to 1080i output (I have a Panasonic plasma - 1080i - not p) then how would I get any upscaling benefit from the Reon processor? Wouldn't I need to set it to native mode so the SD stations get the upscaling?
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post #644 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:35 AM
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joerod: Thanks also from me for your very useful reports! My question has to do with upconversion of 480i and 1080i from a Comcast/Moto stb to a 1080p display. (My BR already outputs 1080p/24, so the Reon will do nothing for this.) Your Crytallio VP has the Gennum chip for doing this, as does my display (RS1 projector), so they should presumably perform this function about the same.

So the question is, does your Crystallio or the Reon in the 875 do a better job at upconversion of 480i and 1080i to a 1080p display? Or are they about the same?
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post #645 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundman11 View Post

Please explain this to me as I am clearly not as technically savey as many on this thread. If I set by Directv box to 1080i output (I have a Panasonic plasma - 1080i - not p) then how would I get any upscaling benefit from the Reon processor? Wouldn't I need to set it to native mode so the SD stations get the upscaling?

Correct. You wouldn't get any benefit if you were to force 1080i output in your set top box. The benefit comes when you bypass the set top box's conversion circuit, and let the Reon do as much as possible. So, yes, you would configure your box to output natively.

I was comparing delay times when switching channels, which has nothing to do with maximizing picture quality.

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post #646 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:41 AM
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I have been on the fence about this 805 vs. 875 myself. I do watch a great deal of SD TV, so the upconversion of the Reon interests me. I have a PS3 for bluray and DVD upconversion, so my benefit would be clearly for HD television de-interlacing and SD upconversion. FYI, my TV is a Sony SXRD 60" A2000. Any insight into whether the 875 is worth the extra money over the 805? I appreciate any advice.
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post #647 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Svalley & Bass, just out of curiosity, what TVs do you guys have. I'm assuming the TVs don't deinterlace properly or you wouldn't see a big difference. Most TVs don't, but units from Pioneer and Fujitsu along with some others do. So those TVs would not benefit from the excellent Reon deinterlacing.

When you say "deinterlace properly", do you mean owners have tested with SD & BD (or HD-DVD) HQV discs and verified it? I'd also think it matters on what the 1080i source is, a 1080p signal interlaced, or a native 1080i stream.

I'd guess a 1080p signal sent as 1080i will be deinterlaced properly by all 1080p tv's, as the original signal was just decomposed into 2 fields, but a 1080i signal that the fields are temporally different would present a different challenge.

So 1080i source likely makes a big difference in how you are judging "perfectly". If I was betting, I'd say the Reon does a better job than the two TV's you mentioned internal de-interlacer.
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post #648 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 08:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Svalley & Bass, just out of curiosity, what TVs do you guys have. I'm assuming the TVs don't deinterlace properly or you wouldn't see a big difference. Most TVs don't, but units from Pioneer and Fujitsu along with some others do. So those TVs would not benefit from the excellent Reon deinterlacing.


I have a MIT WD65831 DLP suppose to be one of the better scalar TV.
I believes Bass has a 720p Front projector.
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post #649 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Svalley & Bass, just out of curiosity, what TVs do you guys have. I'm assuming the TVs don't deinterlace properly or you wouldn't see a big difference. Most TVs don't, but units from Pioneer and Fujitsu along with some others do. So those TVs would not benefit from the excellent Reon deinterlacing.

I'm curious about this as well. Maybe my thought process is screwed up but if your stb is set to 1080i and the channel you are watching is being broadcast in 1080i then my thought process says that the signal would not be touched. The signal would be sent to the 875 at which point it would get deinterlaced and scaled + any other processing like noise reduction etc.. applied and then sent to the TV. Depending on what type of TV you have, this is where it gets tricky. Is it a 1080p set? or is a 720p set that accepts 1080i signals? Like the panasonics that are 1366x768 (this is a 768p set that accepts 1080i signals). Some of the panasonics can correctly deinterlace but fail the 3:2 tests and is why scenes with motion don't look as good as say a pioneer display that does pass the 3:2 test. I'd imagine if you do have a native 1080p tv then you would want to set the 875 to scale to 1080p. In the case that you have a tv that is 1366x768 is where I have the question. Inevitably the TV will have to process the image, whether it upscales it to 768p from 720p or down scales from 1080p to 768p. I guess doing a, A B test is the only way to tell. I would think setting the 875 to output 1080i to a 1366x768 display is useless.


p.s. this is just the questions I have and my thought process. If I'm wrong please correct me

Regards,
Jose
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post #650 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svalley View Post

It should work, I listen to my MP3 thru PS3 this way. First I switch to the HDMI
input that has the PS3 connected to, then tell the 875 to go to CD input (optical).
I have to do this to get 7.1 sounds for my MP3 (PS3 send 5.1 PCM thru HDMI
but only 2 channels for optical) This way 875 output video from HDMI, and
output sound from optical, make sense?




I think it is your TV issue, since 875 doesn't touch 1080p signals, it just pass it to TV.


thats good, but what about computer output settings for mce, set vista mce to 1080i or 1080p will the computer or REON do a better job of video processing? My graphics card is a x1900xtx on a dual core cpu

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post #651 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techtvman View Post

thats good, but what about computer output settings for mce, set vista mce to 1080i or 1080p will the computer or REON do a better job of video processing? My graphics card is a x1900xtx on a dual core cpu

You should be pixel mapping (outputting display device's native resolution). There would be no need for the Reon chip to do anything in that case unless you are not scaling/processing on your computer (which pretty much defeats the purpose of using a HTPC).

It has less to do with your video card than what processing you are doing (of SD DVD for example) on your computer. I for one use TheaterTek 2 with FFDSHOW for VP and scaling so I really doubt the Reon would be able to compete with that. Assuming you have a 1080p projector then the output from your computer (also 180p) would simply passthrough. For SD TV and HD TV sources of course you'll still benefit from scaling and deinterlacing respectively.

Edit: Well, the video card isn't a big concern assuming you're using a decent coding/decoder like the NVidia codec (which I purchased with TT2 and works with my GeForce 7900GT video card).
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post #652 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 09:50 AM
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The published depth for this unit is 18.25". Can someone who has one of these confirm how deep it is, and how deep a shelf one needs for this unit when accounting for the wires and cables plugged into the back?
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post #653 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 09:59 AM
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Does anyone know if Circuit City will carry the 875?

Thanks, LTK
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post #654 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 10:07 AM
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You are missing the point - the 875 is not *just* doing the deinterlacing.. Reon can do HD image processing on 1080i signals - go read the silicon optix Reon page on features. It does less processing on HD signals vs. SD but it does still provide some additional processing nontheless

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Ross View Post

Joe, the only caveat here is if your TV is known to properly deinterlace a 1080i signal, then you'll see no benefit in this application with the Onkyo.




Ah! Glad to see I'm not the only nut in this respect! This is almost the crux of my concern with the Onkyo. If the delay is still there with using a STB set to native (which I don't for the very reasons you stated), then I'd still set my STB to a constant 1080i output. I just don't think I'd gain anything having the Onkyo do the deinterlacing as opposed to either my Fujitsu or Pioneer plasma. I believe they both deinterlace perfectly. I still may very well get the 875 or 905, I just won't really benefit from Onkyo's Reon in that respect.

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post #655 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 10:17 AM
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I just got off the phone with J&R customer service. They said they are expecting their shipment tomorrow. They have ~55 pre-orders for the 875 and are expecting 75 units so all should ship out tomorrow or Friday with delivery next week.
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post #656 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvthekeys View Post

Does anyone know if Circuit City will carry the 875?

Thanks, LTK

Two salepeople told me "Yes" and two salespeople told me "No." This was at three different stores. So, I guess it's a tie.
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post #657 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 10:37 AM
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As I mentioned earlier, the OSD is perfect, the features are very nice, the picture Q is top notch.As is the sound!

Joerod. What other receivers have you owned to compare the AQ to? Strictly Onkyo? I am asking as I found the AQ to be somewhat subpar compared to my Denon's and Pioneer's before it.

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post #658 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by EskimoPie View Post

I just got off the phone with J&R customer service. They said they are expecting their shipment tomorrow. They have ~55 pre-orders for the 875 and are expecting 75 units so all should ship out tomorrow or Friday with delivery next week.

EskimoPie, I don't know how reliable the info we are getting from customer service really is. I also spoke with them earlier today and the gentlemen told me "they most likely expected them in today, but if not, hopefully by tomorrow" - and that they were getting 45 units.

Seriously, if they are going to give out unreliable answers - at least make the answers similar.

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post #659 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by wuerch View Post

When you say "deinterlace properly", do you mean owners have tested with SD & BD (or HD-DVD) HQV discs and verified it? I'd also think it matters on what the 1080i source is, a 1080p signal interlaced, or a native 1080i stream.

I'd guess a 1080p signal sent as 1080i will be deinterlaced properly by all 1080p tv's, as the original signal was just decomposed into 2 fields, but a 1080i signal that the fields are temporally different would present a different challenge.

So 1080i source likely makes a big difference in how you are judging "perfectly". If I was betting, I'd say the Reon does a better job than the two TV's you mentioned internal de-interlacer.

The HD Guru did an extensive test not too long ago to determine which HDTVs properly deinterlace signals. I don't recall which methodology he used, but Gary Merson knows his stuff, so I trust his results. It was from there that I recall the Fujitsus and Pioneers doing this extremely well. So for owners of those TVs, you won't get the deinterlacing advantage from the Reon processing.

If you're willing to put up with lag time on channel changes (I'm not), then you could conceivably benefit from the scaling in the Reon as opposed to your TV. I'd have to do an A/B on my Pioneers & Fujitsus to determine if the Reon does a better job scaling than the TVs. I seriously doubt the Reon will do any better at deinterlacing with these TVs.

With that said, the 875/905 are still on my short list. But I've now added the Sony 5300 to that list based on the stellar review by CNET...even though I'm often at odds with their reviews.
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post #660 of 6044 Old 07-26-2007, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by jshardin View Post

You are missing the point - the 875 is not *just* doing the deinterlacing.. Reon can do HD image processing on 1080i signals - go read the silicon optix Reon page on features. It does less processing on HD signals vs. SD but it does still provide some additional processing nontheless

I think the problem is we don't actually know 'what' processing it's doing. We do know that we don't have access to features in that silicon optix page. From what I've read from owners regarding time lag on channel changes, I would be setting my STB to a 1080i fixed output and have the Onkyo simply deinterlace to 1080p...but even there I probably have no advantage since the feed would be to Pioneer 8g HDTVs and Fujitsus which already deinterlace properly. I'm not aware of any other processing in this scenario that would be taking place in the Onkyo. If that's the case, then I'm really only asking the Onkyo to be an HDMI switcher since I can simply tell the Onkyo to pass the 1080i signal through as a 1080i output. I'm not saying that's bad, but for me it might well be a fact of life.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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