Denon 4308 vs. Onkyo 905 - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Please forgive me if this has been posted before. This forum gets at least 200 hundred post a day and it's hard to sift through it all so.....I was wondering if anyone else trying to decide between the two models. Is it just the 4308 or 4308ci? Is there a difference? There's about a $500 dollar difference between the two and I think they come out at around the same time(August). I think the 4308 doesn't have the Reon processor, but I am not entirely sure about that. Anyone have a link on the specs? Any feedback would be much appreciated.
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post #2 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 12:15 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.
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post #3 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.


I know the Oppo DVD players come very highly rated, but is this also a good thing for A/V receivers? I know the Oppo upscales DVD would you have the same result say upscaling a 480i Dish or Direct signal with the Faroudja?

I also know the Reon and the gennum processors are highly recommended too.

I am interested in these two receivers as well and it will be interesting to see some first end user reports on these two to see how they work.

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post #4 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=801887

Both the 3808ci and 4308ci use Faroudja FLI2310 processing, the same thing you find in the Oppo DVD players.


Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there. If so, then is this FLI2310 better than the REON. I know a few people out there are wondering like me. I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?
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post #5 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 04:15 PM
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Most people on this forum would say that Reon is superior.
If you need it or not is different question altogether.
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post #6 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star View Post

Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there. If so, then is this FLI2310 better than the REON. I know a few people out there are wondering like me. I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?

There is reason to believe that the Faroudja chip in the new Denon line is comparable to the Reon VX (quote from chief engineer from Denon). You can believe what you want, but I'll wait for the Denon to be reviewed alongside the Onkyo before I make my purchase.

It was said before that the 2310 chip did not properly deinterlace 1080i signals. This is supposed to be a new and customized chip from Faroudja that is supposed to fix issues from previous generations. We'll just have to wait a few weeks more to find out.
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post #7 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 10:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

There is reason to believe that the Faroudja chip in the new Denon line is comparable to the Reon VX (quote from chief engineer from Denon).

That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).

The question to Denon was phrased poorly -- they got a marketing answer, which is exactly what you would expect. No company is going to admit to a poor design choice -- or that a competing product offers better performance -- prior to release. Had they asked Denon in a different way, i.e. "does the Silicon Optix HQV in the 5308 produce a better picture than the Faroudja FLI2310 in the 2308," they would have received a very different answer.

Quote:


You can believe what you want, but I'll wait for the Denon to be reviewed alongside the Onkyo before I make my purchase.

Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.

Quote:


It was said before that the 2310 chip did not properly deinterlace 1080i signals. This is supposed to be a new and customized chip from Faroudja that is supposed to fix issues from previous generations. We'll just have to wait a few weeks more to find out.

I'll believe it when I see it, but Faroudja was telling customers otherwise (i.e. no IVTC on 1080i signals) as of a few months ago.
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post #8 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).

If you are going to argue so strongly about something, at least get your facts straight. First, there is no Denon 5308, it is the 5805ci, and second, even the 5805ci uses a Faroudja chip. It is only Denon's DVD players that use the Realta T2 HQV chip by Teranex.
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post #9 of 93 Old 07-19-2007, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

If you are going to argue so strongly about something, at least get your facts straight. First, there is no Denon 5308, it is the 5805ci, and second, even the 5805ci uses a Faroudja chip. It is only Denon's DVD players that use the Realta T2 HQV chip by Teranex.

You might want to be more careful when you accuse others of misstating facts.

Denon has multiple 2007 models on the way. These include the $849 2308ci, $1199 2808ci, $1599 3808ci, $2499 4308ci, and $5199 5308ci. AVS has threads devoted to each of these models, save for the 2308ci. For your benefit, here is the link to the 5308ci thread.

According to the product information sent to dealers, and reposted in the Denon 3808/4308 thread, the 2308ci - 4308ci use the Genesis' Faroudja FLI2310, while the 5308ci uses Silicon Optix HQV processing, and more specifically, the Realta. According to posts by oyfoo of Silicon Optix on this forum, there is essentially no difference in deinterlace and scaling performance between the ReonVX and Realta. The primary differences: the Realta will scale to 2560x1600p, can handle less common cadences such as 6:4 and 8:7, and supports noise reduction on HD signals, whereas the ReonVX is limited to 1920x1080p and only supports noise and block reduction on SD.

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Originally Posted by Shatter Star View Post

Ok so it has the Faroudja FLI2310 processor in it. Is that the same chip that the Onkyo lower end models have?(605,805,etc) Some guy in another post mentioned that there were different Faroudja chips (whatever you call it) out there.

When properly implemented, FLI2030's SD deinterlace is better than the FLI812x in the 605-805. The FLI812x in the 605-805 has a built-in 8-bit converter to do the analog-to-digital (A/D) conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources, whereas the FLI2310 does not. The FLI2310 requires a separate analog-to-digital (A/D) converter.

As far as I can tell, the 3808/4308 and 875/905 are using the same Analog Devices' 216MHz NSV ICs to do analog-to-digital conversion for s-video, composite, and component sources. This is an upgrade over the integrated Faroudja 8-bit A/D conversion found in the FLI812x (used in the 605-805).

In their response, Denon said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denon View Post

Also Faroudja as always been known to be better at converting analog video with less issues than anyone else. Hope this helps.

That comment makes absolutely no sense because Denon is not using the Faroudja to convert analog to digital in the 3808/4308. That's what Onkyo is doing in the 605-805. The approach taken for converting analog sources on the 875/905 and 3808/4308 -- using a dedicated A/D circuit from Analog Devices -- is much preferred.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shatter Star View Post

I'm not sure the 4308CI is worth the 2500 dollars especially if this Faroudja chip is inferior to the REON. ANy other thoughts?

I would not expect the Faroudja to offer comparable performance, but worse case, you can disable it and use pass-through mode. As always, I would wait for reviews, comparisons, and test results before spending $$$$ on a receiver.

Cnet commented on the 605's Faroudja processing in their review.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cnet View Post

In terms of video performance, we weren't too impressed. The most disappointing aspect of the TX-SR605's video performance is that it either lacks or has poor 2:3 pull-down processing. This was evident with Silicon Optix's HQV test disc, as well as on Star Trek: Insurrection and Seabiscuit. Without 2:3 pull-down processing, we found film-based movies were filled with jaggies when the TX-SR605 was responsible for deinterlacing. For example, we ran our tests from the Samsung BD-P1000 to the TX-SR605 via S-Video, and then out to the Sony KDL-46S3000 using the HDMI connection. In this configuration, the opening sequence of Seabiscuit was filled with jaggies on almost every image that the camera panned on, with artifacts that would be noticeable to even those who aren't picky about video quality. Similarly, on the introduction to Star Trek: Insurrection, the boats on the riverside clearly had jaggies instead of being represented by a smooth line.

We also noticed that the TX-SR605 was softening the resolution of images that it deinterlaced; this was confirmed on the HQV test disc as well. In areas where there should have been detail, there was just a solid color. On the other hand, the TX-SR605 did a very good job with several other tests on the HQV test suite, including tests with a rotating white line, three pivoting fingers, and footage of a waving flag.

While the video performance of the TX-SR605 was disappointing, in our experience subpar video processing by AV receivers is common. We've mentioned it in reviews of the Sony STR-DA5200ES, the Yamaha RX-V1700, and the Pioneer VSX-82TXS.

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post #10 of 93 Old 07-20-2007, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

You might want to be more careful when you accuse others of misstating facts.

Denon has multiple 2007 models on the way. These include the $849 2308ci, $1199 2808ci, $1599 3808ci, $2499 4308ci, and $5199 5308ci. AVS has threads devoted to each of these models, save for the 2308ci. For your benefit, here is the link to the 5308ci thread.

My bad. It is clear that it is I that needs to get the facts straight. Please accept my sincere appologies.
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post #11 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 12:44 AM
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Well, for those who have missed it, the 4308ci is up on Denon's web site along the with manual. On paper it looks really nice, the only question is the real-world difference in the video processing (and audio, of course, but I'm assuming neither is going to mess that up).
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post #12 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Well, for those who have missed it, the 4308ci is up on Denon's web site along the with manual. On paper it looks really nice, the only question is the real-world difference in the video processing (and audio, of course, but I'm assuming neither is going to mess that up).

This is probably doesn't matter to anyone, but I found it strange that Denon was only offering 2 year warranties on their A\\V receivers. I guess I figured Denon would have a longer lasting warranty then Onkyo. Even Integra offers longer warranties......
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post #13 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 02:17 PM
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I am leaning towards the 4308 still (barely) as long as the VP isn't a disaster. One main reason is that I have a Denon 2930 and would really like to use Denon Link 3 for my audio.
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post #14 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

That's hogwash.

There's a reason Denon uses the Genesis Faroudja FLI2310 in their lowest-end model (2308) and Silicon Optix HQV in their top-end model (5308).

The question to Denon was phrased poorly -- they got a marketing answer, which is exactly what you would expect. No company is going to admit to a poor design choice -- or that a competing product offers better performance -- prior to release. Had they asked Denon in a different way, i.e. "does the Silicon Optix HQV in the 5308 produce a better picture than the Faroudja FLI2310 in the 2308," they would have received a very different answer.

Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.

I'll believe it when I see it, but Faroudja was telling customers otherwise (i.e. no IVTC on 1080i signals) as of a few months ago.

Now this is the kind of post I like to see here more often to keep everyone on track. Thanks!
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post #15 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 04:27 PM
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I've been a long time Denon supporter, but this year Onkyo top end models[875,905] are giving a run for their money of the mid level Denons like the 4308 IMO.

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post #16 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

Now this is the kind of post I like to see here more often to keep everyone on track. Thanks!

I don't disagree with him. It was probably all marketing hype he was dishing out, but he does leave some room for optimism about their offerings.

Personally, I'm teetering between the 905, the 4308, and if I don't like either of these offerings, I'll step up to the 5308. That's a big jump, but I want a good all-in-one solution. May be a bit more than I need in some areas, but what the heck, you only live once.
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post #17 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 11:18 PM
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The one thing I like about the denon is the support for 9 speakers in one zone as my current setup has and also power for 2 speakers in zone 2.
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post #18 of 93 Old 07-21-2007, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryarber View Post

I don't disagree with him. It was probably all marketing hype he was dishing out, but he does leave some room for optimism about their offerings.

Personally, I'm teetering between the 905, the 4308, and if I don't like either of these offerings, I'll step up to the 5308. That's a big jump, but I want a good all-in-one solution. May be a bit more than I need in some areas, but what the heck, you only live once.

I too am debating the 905 vs the 4308 and am impatiently waiting for reviews of both. However, in my mind before I'd pay $5k for the Denon 5308 I'd likely go for a pre/pro and amp setup. For that amount of cash I think you'd be better off going to seperates. For me part of the appeal of the 905/4308 product level is the bang for buck factor (i.e. it would be difficult to get the same functionality and performance out of seperates for that cost).

It's a tough sell going from a reciever in the $2500 range all the way up to $5200 (for the 5308). Please set me straight if I got this wrong.
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post #19 of 93 Old 07-22-2007, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mnn1265 View Post

I too am debating the 905 vs the 4308 and am impatiently waiting for reviews of both. However, in my mind before I'd pay $5k for the Denon 5308 I'd likely go for a pre/pro and amp setup. For that amount of cash I think you'd be better off going to seperates. For me part of the appeal of the 905/4308 product level is the bang for buck factor (i.e. it would be difficult to get the same functionality and performance out of seperates for that cost).

It's a tough sell going from a reciever in the $2500 range all the way up to $5200 (for the 5308). Please set me straight if I got this wrong.

Well the only pre/pros out right now that have even close to the connectivity and functionality of the 5308 are the Anthem D2 and the Lexicon MC12HD. The Anthem will run ya $6700, and when you add a matching A5 amp to that you are looking at around $9400. If you want 7 channels of amplification, then you are looking at $10,900. Thats more than twice the price of the Denon 5308.

Some, maybe many, will argue with this, but it has been my experience that the point of dimishing returns has lowered considerably for front-end audio components over the past 5 years. Just like PC's or any other tech, it becomes cheaper and cheaper each year to produce the parts, and frankly I think the audio components in most AVRs are overkill for what they need to do. I mean seriously, do we really need DACs with 113-123dB of dynamic range when most of what we listen to has a dynamic range of maybe 20dB? A good upper level AVR will give you 90% of the performance of seperates (except in very large rooms or with very low impedance speakers), and AVRs always have more current tech than pre/pros.
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post #20 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 06:52 AM
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The manual for the Onkyo 905 has just been posted on Onkyo's website, for those wanting to compare to Denon
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post #21 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Well the only pre/pros out right now that have even close to the connectivity and functionality of the 5308 are the Anthem D2 and the Lexicon MC12HD. The Anthem will run ya $6700, and when you add a matching A5 amp to that you are looking at around $9400. If you want 7 channels of amplification, then you are looking at $10,900. Thats more than twice the price of the Denon 5308.

I believe you forgot the Anthem AVM-50 which retails for $4699 and has most of the features of the D2 and depending on how much power you would need you could always connect that to an Outlaw 7 channel amp for another grand or two. I think for a little extra the AVM-50 with whichever amp a person would want would be a better deal than the High-end Denon, unless you want an all in one configuration.
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post #22 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfdtv View Post

Nothing can change the fact that the FLI2310 is a low-end solution with mediocre scaling performance and limited capability when it comes to high-definition processing. It's always been a good solution for SD deinterlace, aside from the macroblocking issue, when implemented properly.

Bfdtv, do you have any idea what Faroujda chip is inside the new Sony 5300? It seemed to get an excellent review from CNET for among other things, video processing. They were very quick to condemn last year's version of this model, the 5200, specifically FOR poor video processing. So Sony seems to have made some radical changes in the video processing on the 5300 and CNET emphasized that.
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post #23 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 09:15 AM
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Since this is a 4308 vs 905 thread, here is a few question.

Q1. After looking thru both the 905 and 4308 manual, I see the 4308 offers via analog input, Picture Adjust..... see attachment (denon pic adjust). I do not see anything about such a feature in the 905 manual?

Q2. Looking thru the 4308 manual, I see the ability to view video on the HDTV, and listen to a different audio input at the same time. (see attachment denon input video mode). Albiet it appears this video selection does only work for non HDMI input? I will have component input from the cable STB, so this should work, allowing TV viewing while listening to an input source of my choosing.

I do not see anything like this in the 905 manual?

Q3. I want a good OSD to see what FM/AM/XM station I am tuned to, or to see what audio codec is being used, etc.

I appears the Denon 3808 ----up allow this type of viewing. I see this for the 905(see attachment 905 display info and 905 display immediate.) Will the 905 allow OSD of this info?

Lots of questions...... few answers at this point.
LL
LL
LL
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post #24 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 10:35 AM
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I too have been waiting to see how the 905 and 4308 are received by everyone on this forum, I currently have a 4802 and have the upgrade itch for the HDMI switching capability and the up-conversion ability of the new receivers. My BIGGEST concern is sound quality since I still listen to 2.1 music about 50% of the time through my Klipsch Forte's and Hsu Sub, any opinions on audio comparisons between either the 905 and 4308 and my current 4802?? I'm leaning to the 905 because of the torrodial supply but I REALLY like the sound aof a Denon through the Klipsch...
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post #25 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 11:07 AM
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You might want to see if you can contact the guy that wrote this, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...02#post8055130
...though he was comparing to a 4306 not a 4308.
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post #26 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 02:36 PM
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I almost bought the 4308, but just pre-ordered the 905 with Value Electronics this morning. At $500 less than the 4308, and potentially better video processing, it was an easy choice for me. WiFi was tempting on the 4308, but I doubt I would ever use it.

I'm going to sell my 5803, so I won't be out too much for the new receiver.
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post #27 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 04:13 PM
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Another Question.....

See attached pic re: Output from the 905.

So, the question is... What if I want to use BOTH Component out to my HDTV component IN AND HDMI out to my HDTV DVI IN?

Is there an easy way to select either output to accomplish this?
LL
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post #28 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 04:45 PM
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A bit hard to understand exactly all what you want to do. But it looks like at the bottom of that JPG that you also want to do a HDMI input to a component output.
You can't convert a HDMI input to a component output. So if you were thinking of doing that, that's out.
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post #29 of 93 Old 07-27-2007, 04:51 PM
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I am interested in being able to take the Cable STB (component in) to the component in on the HDTV via the 905. (I may have to go directly to the HDTV and just take audio to the AVR...that's what I do now).

I also want to take my Tosh XA2 (HDMI in 1080p) to the DVI on my HDTV via the AVR HDMI out.

So, being able to switch outputs would be nice, but I do not see that it is easy in the Onkyos 875/905?
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post #30 of 93 Old 07-28-2007, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yngdiego View Post

I almost bought the 4308, but just pre-ordered the 905 with Value Electronics this morning. At $500 less than the 4308, and potentially better video processing, it was an easy choice for me. WiFi was tempting on the 4308, but I doubt I would ever use it.

I'm going to sell my 5803, so I won't be out too much for the new receiver.

Yngdiego,

I am thinking the same way. So here is my question. What is the purpose of the ethernet connection on the Denon. To upgrade firmware?

Also, how much stock do you place in HD radio? Why can I only find that in high-end models?
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