Why are 4 in/ 2 out HDMI receivers rare? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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So far I can't find a receiver south of $1,500 retail that does 4 in/ 2 out hdmi. Sure the flagship Onkyo, Denon, etc top models can do it at $2,000 or so, but nothing in $400-$800 range I would rather spend instead...

Why is 4/2 hdmi so rare? Do most homes only have one HDMI TV? Is it more popular to buy a switch or splitter instead (costing $200-$500 )? Would the audio companies prefer we all buy seperate receivers for every TV in our homes? What is up with the multi-year delay in getting more than one HDMI output on the non-flagship receivers?

Anyone have information on new "mid range" (less than $1,000) receivers coming this Fall with 4/2 hdmi? Even 2/2 HDMI would be amazing at this point...

Flustrated and waiting...waiting...waiting...
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post #2 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 11:58 AM
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You answered your own questions..
91% of the USA households have 1 primary TV display...
And 42% of those are HD capable displays
So the requirement of 2 HDMI outputs target a smaller market segment..
But affluent and wealthy...

Another possibility is to have the AVR to be capable of handling 2 HDMI stream simultaneously like some of the new Denon AVRs which are about ready to ship.... But then 2 complete HDMI front-ends and DSPs will be required...
Much more cost-effective to buy 2 HDMI AVRs.. 1 for each user..
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post #3 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 12:17 PM
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I'm impressed that 42% have HD capable displays.

I'm still in the 58% that does not.

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post #4 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 12:22 PM
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I believe Silcon Image's most common chips only had two ports. Implementing more ports than that probably added a lot to the cost.

Yamaha's RX-V2700 has three inputs, I am not sure what chips they used.

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post #5 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I believe Silcon Image's most common chips only had two ports. Implementing more ports than that probably added a lot to the cost.

Yeah, about $5-6 per receiver would be my guess!

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post #6 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 12:54 PM
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I was once told that an $x part added some rediculous multiple of that price to the final product. Like 10x. I find that a little hard to believe, but there's probably some truth in that statement.

More inputs is one way to distinguish products. I wonder how many people went with the RX-V2700 over the RX-V1700 due to one additional HDMI input?

Products also have a certain design window. Even with being able to leverage existing designs, it must take them awhile to come to market, and now most common classes of AV devices sport HDMI inputs (DVD players, HD players, STB's, Game Consoles.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #7 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I was once told that an $x part added some rediculous multiple of that price to the final product. Like 10x. I find that a little hard to believe, but there's probably some truth in that statement.

More inputs is one way to distinguish products. I wonder how many people went with the RX-V2700 over the RX-V1700 due to one additional HDMI input?

Products also have a certain design window. Even with being able to leverage existing designs, it must take them awhile to come to market, and now most common classes of AV devices sport HDMI inputs (DVD players, HD players, STB's, Game Consoles.)


The biggest costs to an AVR that have the HDMI repeater function is that it requires 2 expensive ICs, an Rx chip (SI 9135) and a Tx chip (SI 9134). The 9135 has 2 input ports if more are required then SI 9185 chip (2 port switch) is added making it capable of 4 HDMI inputs.
Also the 9185 switch can be used for 2 HDMI outputs as done by Marantz & Onkyo in their latest AVRs..

To date the crucial HDMI silicon components were only available from Silicon Image, but now as the HDMI market demand is rapidly increasing there are many new competitive HDMI parts starting to show up. This will help to deliver more inputs (and/or outputs) @ lower pricing but this will not start to really show up in the new HDMI products due to ship in mid-2008..

Just my $.02 worth...
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post #8 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 01:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Below are common, lower priced, HDMI products that have/will hit the masses in large numbers. Seems to me that 4 in/ 2 out HDMI would be standard on all receivers in the very near future...with 2/1 and even 3/1 obsolete in 1-2 years. And why not, as HDMI is here to stay and not just expensive hype anymore. Else do we all just pony up and pay $500 -$1000 for a gefen 6x1... or do we just re-route our cables between device use...LOL

HD-DVD Xbox 360 upgrade - $200
HD Tivo - $300 retail (launched in July 2007)
HD Elite Xbox360-$480 retail
PS3 - $500
HDMI Cable and Dish
Computers (DVI digital output colors are superior to vga)

Am I missing something here...why is 4x2 and 6x2 not common yet? So many HDMI items already, and much more coming very, very soon!

So which company will win the prize on a 4x2 or 6x2 HDMI receiver under $800....TBD, but I'm placing a bet on JVC as the 2 year old 702b was very close, and the next version will probably fix 1080p/24 and add 4/2 hdmi...all at a retail below $800. JVC lead the HDMI mid range two years ago, and I'm hoping they fill the huge void again in 2007.

Any other predictions/guesses?
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post #9 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The biggest costs to an AVR that have the HDMI repeater function is that it requires 2 expensive ICs, an Rx chip (SI 9135) and a Tx chip (SI 9134). The 9135 has 2 input ports if more are required then SI 9185 chip (2 port switch) is added making it capable of 4 HDMI inputs.
Also the 9185 switch can be used for 2 HDMI outputs as done by Marantz & Onkyo in their latest AVRs..

To date the crucial HDMI silicon components were only available from Silicon Image, but now as the HDMI market demand is rapidly increasing there are many new competitive HDMI parts starting to show up. This will help to deliver more inputs (and/or outputs) @ lower pricing but this will not start to really show up in the new HDMI products due to ship in mid-2008..

Just my $.02 worth...

I didn't realize that there was a monopoly on the chips needed, but that makes sense on the cost issues. The quick fix to monopolies in today's world is China...they will fix that problem soon enough.

We can only hope that the audio giants go ahead and add 4/2 soon, and take a margin hit...and then switch over production runs to the cheaper chips when they become available. Start with expensive parts...cost reduce later. That is the way of many consumer products....so I really hope that we don't have to wait until 2008.
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post #10 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secant View Post

Below are common, lower priced, HDMI products that have/will hit the masses in large numbers. Seems to me that 4 in/ 2 out HDMI would be standard on all receivers in the very near future...with 2/1 and even 3/1 obsolete in 1-2 years. And why not, as HDMI is here to stay and not just expensive hype anymore. Else do we all just pony up and pay $500 -$1000 for a gefen 6x1... or do we just re-route our cables between device use...LOL

HD-DVD Xbox 360 upgrade - $200
HD Tivo - $300 retail (launched in July 2007)
HD Elite Xbox360-$480 retail
PS3 - $500
HDMI Cable and Dish
Computers (DVI digital output colors are superior to vga)

Am I missing something here...why is 4x2 and 6x2 not common yet? So many HDMI items already, and much more coming very, very soon!

So which company will win the prize on a 4x2 or 6x2 HDMI receiver under $800....TBD, but I'm placing a bet on JVC as the 2 year old 702b was very close, and the next version will probably fix 1080p/24 and add 4/2 hdmi...all at a retail below $800. JVC lead the HDMI mid range two years ago, and I'm hoping they fill the huge void again in 2007.

Any other predictions/guesses?

I could see more inputs needed. I already have 4 going on 5 HDMI capable sources. I don't really see a need for more than one output. Maybe if you had a RP display for everyday TV and a FP display for movies/special events, but how many people have that?

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post #11 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by littlesaint View Post

I could see more inputs needed. I already have 4 going on 5 HDMI capable sources. I don't really see a need for more than one output. Maybe if you had a RP display for everyday TV and a FP display for movies/special events, but how many people have that?

I have two HDMI HDTV LCDs and one HDMI projector in seperate rooms that are within 30 feet or less of cable run to my control room. And for all these displays, I paid less total than what I would have to pay for a flagship receiver with 4/2 HDMI. That makes me very sad... ...LOL

I could use a 6/3 HDMI receiver, and at the current pace perhaps in a decade or so it will be cheap enough to fit my frugal ways...LOL
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post #12 of 14 Old 07-25-2007, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secant View Post

I have two HDMI HDTV LCDs and one HDMI projector in seperate rooms that are within 30 feet or less of cable run to my control room. And for all these displays, I paid less total than what I would have to pay for a flagship receiver with 4/2 HDMI. That makes me very sad... ...LOL

I could use a 6/3 HDMI receiver, and at the current pace perhaps in a decade or so it will be cheap enough to fit my frugal ways...LOL

Again though, this is more the exception than the norm.

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post #13 of 14 Old 07-27-2007, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Also the 9185 switch can be used for 2 HDMI outputs as done by Marantz & Onkyo in their latest AVRs..

I've seen the Marantz 8000, but which Onkyo has the 2 HDMI Outputs?
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post #14 of 14 Old 07-27-2007, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by cyborgx View Post

I've seen the Marantz 8000, but which Onkyo has the 2 HDMI Outputs?

The new Onkyo 905 has it.
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