The "Official" Yamaha RX-Vn800 anticipation thread (with HDMI 1.3) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 02:18 PM
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I don't know how much better ABT1018 vs HQV Reon?
but if z11 $5000 is a low cost design, then 905 $2100 will be a junk cost design...... seems my choice of 905 is still the best buy.......



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Originally Posted by shanemcr View Post

The 3800 NPB says it uses the ABT1010, but doesn't say anything about how it does deinterlacing (other than to say it only deinterlaces 480i).

The Z11 NPB says it uses the ABT1018 says it deinterlaces with an IP00C772. The I-Chips web site says:

The IP00C772 is an advanced motion-adaptive de-interlacer used to convert an interlaced video source to a progressive-scan format. This type of conversion is necessary in many applications such as flat panel displays, DVD players, LCD TV's and video projectors. The IP00C772 is an ideal solution for low-cost designs, because it only requires one (1) SDRAM device of external memory.

Does the Z-11 count as a "low-cost design" at $5K?

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post #92 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's a new feature table based on the official NPBs. Please let me know if you think anything is incorrect or missing. It's in the first topic, too. Maybe I should add the 905.

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post #93 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 02:37 PM
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Wayy too much nit picking going on here. If I wanted to hear this much complaining, Id go in the other room and sit with my wife. My final advice for this forum is to go to a store where you can do side-by-side test with different source material, and then make your decision. c ya

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post #94 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent advice; I wish I could take it (can't even find a 2700 around here as far as I know). I still expect the Yamahas to sound great.

I don't think it's nitpicking, though. Pointing out what's missing (or only in a higher model) is just part of understanding what to buy.

I'm still holding out hope that there really is a 4800 coming, and that it will have the best balance of features for me.
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post #95 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 04:15 PM
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looks like im gonna have to change my plans for picking up the 3800. seems like the 1800 will not only be cheaper but have enough option for my living room. i do hope it comes with HD Radio though.

Pioneer 5010FD, Sony 60A3000, Panny 42PZ85U, Yamaha RX-V3800, Denon 4308, B&W 600's, HSU VTF-3 MK3, Def. Tech. bp7004, 2002, 1.2x, 2x, TivoHD, Samsung 1200, harmony 1000, ps3, xbox360, Sony BDP S350
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post #96 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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No HD Radio in the 1800 or 3800 manuals. 3800 has internet radio support, and both are XM-ready.
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post #97 of 784 Old 08-04-2007, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanemcr View Post

No HD Radio in the 1800 or 3800 manuals. 3800 has internet radio support, and both are XM-ready.


so all that extra cash for internet radio. im glad i picked up a denon 4308ci because it looks like yamaha skimped on the features this year. at least i know now which receiver will own my HTTR.

Pioneer 5010FD, Sony 60A3000, Panny 42PZ85U, Yamaha RX-V3800, Denon 4308, B&W 600's, HSU VTF-3 MK3, Def. Tech. bp7004, 2002, 1.2x, 2x, TivoHD, Samsung 1200, harmony 1000, ps3, xbox360, Sony BDP S350
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post #98 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 01:17 AM
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I am pretty sure that there is a RX-V4800 as I think someone who knows (and is always right)......MCODE, stated a few months ago that there would be a 1800/2800/3800/4800/Z11. I can see there is a preliminary listing for the 4800 on the New York Wholesale website. I think they likely have a basis for their listing of the 4800.
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post #99 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 04:02 AM
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sorry, newbie in US new radio systems.

are HD, XM, Sirius the same?
do they use satellite to send signals? How big the dish do you need?
is such broadcast free like FM/AM?

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Originally Posted by shanemcr View Post

No HD Radio in the 1800 or 3800 manuals. 3800 has internet radio support, and both are XM-ready.

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post #100 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lienly View Post

sorry, newbie in US new radio systems.

are HD, XM, Sirius the same?
do they use satellite to send signals? How big the dish do you need?
is such broadcast free like FM/AM?


internet radio is normal radio only sent over the internet. usualy radio stations simulcast there shows over a feed over the net. most of the time it comes with a delay though.

HD radio is your normal every day FM radio stations only in better quality. most major stations have gone HD. there is no cost for HD radio like there is for XM or Sirius. all you need is the equipment and a station that broadcasts in HD. the audio quality might be the same but XM and Sirius offer more programing.

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post #101 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 07:43 AM
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Over here in the uk my sky hd box iss et to auto and puts out HD at 1080i and sd at 576p so would like to know could any improvement made to that. I dont set the box to 1080i cos all 4:3 stuff gets stretched!!
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post #102 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

so all that extra cash for internet radio. im glad i picked up a denon 4308ci because it looks like yamaha skimped on the features this year. at least i know now which receiver will own my HTTR.

There's more difference than just internet radio for "all that extra cash".
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post #103 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 12:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Comparing the 3800 against the 4308 and 905 isn't a fair comparison as it's significantly cheaper than either. I think we should wait until we've seen the full 2007 lineup before drawing any final conclusions about Yamaha vs. the competition.

And as eddielives pointed out, specs aren't all there is--the sound and video quality will determine which is really better.
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post #104 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

so all that extra cash for internet radio. im glad i picked up a denon 4308ci because it looks like yamaha skimped on the features this year. at least i know now which receiver will own my HTTR.

Skimped out on features?? Are you for real? You're comparing a Yamaha @ 1599 to a Denon @ 2499. If you want an accurate comparison, use the 3808 for Denon as they are the same price. If you look at the two, they are almost spec for spec.
If you want to do comparisons like that, compare the Z-11 to the 4308, and see what roughly doubling your money does for features and specs. Better yet, compare the Z-11 to the 4806ci and see what you get for an extra grand .

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post #105 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 02:01 PM
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Here are my questions/thoughts...What if I don't want the receiver to do the "intensive" video processing stuff (up-scaling, etc.)? What if all I want is for the receiver to up-convert any 480i stuff to be able to be passed through the HDMI cable, and just let the HD resolutions (720p, 1080i,p) etc. pass through unprocessed to the TV? This would allow the TV to handle the de-interlacing and processing of the various source resolutions. This may be preferred (at least in my opinion) for several reasons. For example, CNET stated in their Onkyo 605 review that they are generally underwhelmed by the video processing capabilities of receivers (granted the 605 is a lower end model, w/o the Reon chip). Also, if the receiver (e.g. the Onkyo 875) processes the video, and then the TV also processes the video when it receives it from the receiver, there is going to be a delay due to the redundant processing, and possible video downgrading by the TV processor (if the receiver has a better video processor than the TV). Thirdly, in one of the new Onkyo (805 maybe) manuals, the THX people recommend turning off the video processing of the receiver for the best result.

I have never owned a receiver, but am looking to get one in the $1000 range that has a certain combination of the "new" capabilities of this year's models (described more later). The Yamaha 1800 seems to be the lowest priced model of the new ones I have seen from Onkyo, Denon, etc. that gives you the new dtsHD, Dolby TrueHD, etc. audio capabilities while also having 4 HDMI I/P's. The only other one I have seen with 4 HDMI I/P's is the Sherwood R-872. The Onkyo 805 is tempting, barring the "popping" issues noted in other threads. The Denon 2808 is a joke by only having 2 HDMI I/P's, especially at the price they want.

I have been researching all of the new models (Onkyo 605-875, Denon 2808-3808, Sony ES3300-5300, etc.) for an eventual fall 07 purchase, looking for the lowest priced models that give me the HD audio capabilities as well as at least 3 HDMI I/P's. I was initially woo'ed by the 875's Reon chip, but not the 875's price, and I am starting to question if I would want to use the receiver in lieu of the TV's internal video processor (especially the newer LCD models coming out, such as the new Sony XBR4's, and the Samsung 71/81 series, which I would also be purchasing in the fall). I think the biggest advantage of the 875's Reon would be for SD television content, but if the TV does a good job of that then I can forgo the increased cost of the higher end new receiver models that handle the video processing capabilities. Plus, it seems more natural to let the display devices (TV, HiDef DVD players, etc.) handle the video processing, and just use the receiver for audio processing (as well as cable organization/optimization via the HiDef inputs (multiple HDMI and component I/P's--> 1 HDMI O/P to the TV)). Also, a lot of the new HiDef DVD players have the same or better quality Reon chips to handle upscaling of SD DVD's (in fact I think one of the new Toshiba HD-DVD players got excellent marks for SD DVD playback), again leaving only SD television content to be the wildcard.

Therefore, stripping out the importance of the receiver's video processor (e.g. the seemingly sub-par 1010 chip in the new Yamahas) leaves you with two main things in my opinion: sound and future (i.e. HDMI) connectivity. The new Yamahas seem to have the sound covered because they have Burr-Brown DAC's (which I believe the Onkyo 805-905 also have) and the new HD audio support, while also having the 4 HDMI I/P's, all in the ~$1000 price range I am looking for.

Anyone else have any thoughts on the importance of the receivers video processing capabilities, in light of the video processing capabilities of the newer TV's (e.g. Pioneer's KURO line, Samsung 71/81, Sony XBR4/5's) and HiDef DVD players? As mentioned before, the only wildcard in my opinion when weighing the necessity of buying the Onkyo 875 for the Reon chip instead of say the Onkyo 805 is for SD television content (which will hopefully be fading away, thus further rendering paying more for a higher end video chip in a receiver less and less appealing). Sorry for the longwindedness...I just want to make as future proof a purchase as possible at a reasonable price (for me at least) of ~$1000, having the most HDMI connectivity and sound quality for my money.
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post #106 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I think you make some very good points. For me, part of the attraction of a receiver that does the de-interlacing and upconversion would be in finding one that did it better than my current projector. But then on the other hand my current projector is only 720p, so what if the 1080p one I upgrade to (next year, after prices come down a bit) does as good a job as the receiver I buy (or better)? So it's probably a better investment for me to focus on the audio side (as you've described), and that's where Yamaha has excelled, at least to my taste.

In general, it seems that audio equipment lasts a lot longer (that is, stays current) than video equipment, so why pollute my audio investment with video technology that's more likely to be obsolete in a year or two?
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post #107 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 08:29 PM
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Quote:


This is massively disappointing. I was looking forward to the Yamaha models as they have things that I want: Enough analog and digital audio outputs for the various audio and video devices I own. The Yamaha receivers have all of these. But if the ABT for scaling is really that inferior to that of the Reon, I don't know what to say...I own a lot of 480i material. If I am forced to go with the Onkyo/Integra models, I'd be using most of the analog AV inputs and the only AV output for audio (only) devices, leaving barely anything for the 'video' stuff.
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post #108 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 09:25 PM
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This has been an interesting thread to read... since im a Yamaha, Integra, Pioneer elite, Denon dealer...After reading this theard... I sent an email to my Yamaha rep to give me an insight as to why yamaha would use the ABT 1018 and 1010 chips for video processing and he mentioned that at their Yamaha training last week they recieved info on why the selections where made...Im hoping to have this monday to share with you all... But in brife he mentioned that Yamaha is very familiar with the HQV chip since it was used on the DPX-1300 video projector... so when they went to use the chip on these new recievers they found that the chip took too long to do its needed video processing. Which was not good since an A/V receivers has to take care of the audio and video at the same time, which caused higher delays on the video processing that was affecting audio syncing with video signals... But in the training they mentioned also that the ABT1018 only 1/2 field delay while the Realta was at 8 field delays..not sure what the hell that ment.

Anyways not sure how acurate he was... but sounded pretty sure that Yamaha with a new Flagship would not just put any chip in there... if they did not feel it can be competive in the market...But then again why do my customers buy an AV receiver...hmmmm for Sound Quality and Video switching...So can wait to see the Z11 at CEDIA....Its always good for us to be able to sell more speakers and at 11.2 thats good buisness...Im hoping that my rep can bring his sample to our store...but we already have our demo unit on order even when they will not be here till late October from what he tells me...

Well thats it...hope some of this helps...
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post #109 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 10:38 PM
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Quote:


many thanks for the link...

I'm currently using the yamaha RXV 2500 ...

I have a DVDO VP50, so I'm not really looking at the amp for video processing, but I would like a 'passthrough' capability for video, good bandwitdh for crossconverting from analogue to HDMI, 480i/576i output for HDMI, wireless LAN and HD audio format....

I'm between the yamaha 3800 and the denon 4308.... any thoughts? Is anybody in the same boat? should I be considering other options?

Can't get enough of technology .... Love the toys!!!
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post #110 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 10:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, considering MSRP on the Denon is $2495 and the 3800 is (unofficially) $1599, it shouldn't be that hard a decision unless the Denon has something else you really want (is Wi-Fi that important?) or you think the Denon sounds a lot better (which would surprise me, though I've heard neither).
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post #111 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks, fastek; do keep us posted.

Regarding the ABT scaling being inferior to the Reon, I think it's important to see how they perform in the actual device. Let's hope that Yamaha has done a good job with the electronics around the scaler; we should know soon.
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post #112 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddielives View Post

Skimped out on features?? Are you for real? You're comparing a Yamaha @ 1599 to a Denon @ 2499. If you want an accurate comparison, use the 3808 for Denon as they are the same price. If you look at the two, they are almost spec for spec.
If you want to do comparisons like that, compare the Z-11 to the 4308, and see what roughly doubling your money does for features and specs. Better yet, compare the Z-11 to the 4806ci and see what you get for an extra grand .


who did any comparing? all i said was the 3800 didnt have as many features as i thoght it would have. realize i did not make a direct comparison of any kind. maybe you overreacted and didnt take time to digest what you just read but i did not make a comparison. from what i can see the 3800 was the best receiver in my price range yamaha was coming with and i didnt like the option it had. it listed at 2k (preorder) and didnt live up to the 2k price tag feature wise.

let me elaborate a little more. i was just saying i hoped for more out of yamaha. denon feature wise was better for me and my HTTR. im not looking to spend anything more then 2k (and yes i did get my 4308 for 2k and the yamaha 3800 is listed at 2k at various internet dealers). so lets say we did decide to compare both 2k receivers then denon has the feature i consider better for me (again i said for me, not everyone). i myself did not rule out picking up a yamaha receiver just not at this price level considering what features can be had from other makers.

honestly im sure a yamaha will find its way into my home again but not in the httr. i will pick up a receiver for my livingroom (which will be used for movies and music but music more often for entertaining guests). im big on how a yamaha receiver can make music sound but when it comes to movies its a toss up so why not go with the one with more features in a HTTR (that just my opinion which lead me to the denon 4308). hey this wasnt intended to make you upset just to clearify some things.

Pioneer 5010FD, Sony 60A3000, Panny 42PZ85U, Yamaha RX-V3800, Denon 4308, B&W 600's, HSU VTF-3 MK3, Def. Tech. bp7004, 2002, 1.2x, 2x, TivoHD, Samsung 1200, harmony 1000, ps3, xbox360, Sony BDP S350
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post #113 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanemcr View Post

Well, considering MSRP on the Denon is $2495 and the 3800 is (unofficially) $1599, it shouldn't be that hard a decision unless the Denon has something else you really want (is Wi-Fi that important?) or you think the Denon sounds a lot better (which would surprise me, though I've heard neither).

you can get the denon 4308ci for $2000 shipped from an authorized dealer. if you consider what the yamaha will cost after shipping and tax the gap is smaller then one might think. to me the denon won out just because of the features and what i was useing it for. now if where talking music then the gap is a whole lot bigger since i consider yamaha the better option ( which is why im gonna end up picking up one of the new models ).

Pioneer 5010FD, Sony 60A3000, Panny 42PZ85U, Yamaha RX-V3800, Denon 4308, B&W 600's, HSU VTF-3 MK3, Def. Tech. bp7004, 2002, 1.2x, 2x, TivoHD, Samsung 1200, harmony 1000, ps3, xbox360, Sony BDP S350
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post #114 of 784 Old 08-05-2007, 11:43 PM
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Isn't it a bit of false advertising when they state the 3800 can do 980 watts at 140w x 7channels? Does any receiver really output that much power when running 8 ohms over that many speakers?
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post #115 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 01:28 AM
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I want to have the v1800 and v3800 manual, but I cannot download it from yamaha's website, because I am living in the Netherlands. How can I get the manuals? Can anyone help me? Please.
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post #116 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 03:23 AM
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post #117 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 03:35 AM
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Good stuff!! on the manuals
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post #118 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 04:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastek View Post

This has been an interesting thread to read... since im a Yamaha, Integra, Pioneer elite, Denon dealer...After reading this theard... I sent an email to my Yamaha rep to give me an insight as to why yamaha would use the ABT 1018 and 1010 chips for video processing and he mentioned that at their Yamaha training last week they recieved info on why the selections where made...Im hoping to have this monday to share with you all... But in brife he mentioned that Yamaha is very familiar with the HQV chip since it was used on the DPX-1300 video projector... so when they went to use the chip on these new recievers they found that the chip took too long to do its needed video processing. Which was not good since an A/V receivers has to take care of the audio and video at the same time, which caused higher delays on the video processing that was affecting audio syncing with video signals... But in the training they mentioned also that the ABT1018 only 1/2 field delay while the Realta was at 8 field delays..not sure what the hell that ment...

This field delay concept mentioned above is what I believe caused the THX people to tell Onkyo to put a comment in the 875/905's manual that it is recommended to turn the scaling off, because it screws up the synchronization of the audio and video signals. I believe there are also some delay problems reported in the associated Onkyo threads. Maybe b/c Yamaha is slightly more audio focused, they chose the ABT processor to avoid syncronization/delay problems, which seems like it would be very distracting (more distracting than having 480i material have some jaggies, etc. due to non-high end video processing). I don't want to feel like I am watching dubbed content (don't know if the delay is that extreme, but still...).

Like I mentioned in my earlier comment, and someone hinted at above...the main function of the receiver (imo) is for sound and switching purposes. I don't see the need to have redundant scaling being performed by multiple devices (HiDef DVD players, the TV itself and now some of the new Reon based receivers). As I decide which of the new model receivers I am going to purchase, I am becoming less and less worried about the video processing (namely upscaling) capabilities, and am starting to only look for the receiver's ability to pass (and upconvert for 480i) all signals through 1 HDMI O/P sufficiently, and give me the hook-ups I need (e.g. 4 HDMI I/P's) at the price I want. And of course have good audio capabilities.

I think I am going to let my video equipment (TV, HiDef DVD players, etc.) handle the meat of the video processing, since it is meant to perform that task, and likewise for the audio equipment. I will sit on the fence until I see full reviews of all of the new models I am interested in, but for now the Yamaha 1800 seems to at least be in the runnings for my money.
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post #119 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 05:15 AM
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tks, now I got it, no such satellite radio as I thought........

actually I already enjoy internet radio by Onkyo NR900 for years. its NetTune is really a great innovation! but not sure if there is any HD station over internet?

are XM and Sirius compatible?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bboncorr1 View Post

internet radio is normal radio only sent over the internet. usualy radio stations simulcast there shows over a feed over the net. most of the time it comes with a delay though.

HD radio is your normal every day FM radio stations only in better quality. most major stations have gone HD. there is no cost for HD radio like there is for XM or Sirius. all you need is the equipment and a station that broadcasts in HD. the audio quality might be the same but XM and Sirius offer more programing.

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post #120 of 784 Old 08-06-2007, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shanemcr View Post

The 3800 NPB says it uses the ABT1010, but doesn't say anything about how it does deinterlacing (other than to say it only deinterlaces 480i).

The Z11 NPB says it uses the ABT1018 says it deinterlaces with an IP00C772. The I-Chips web site says:

The IP00C772 is an advanced motion-adaptive de-interlacer used to convert an interlaced video source to a progressive-scan format. This type of conversion is necessary in many applications such as flat panel displays, DVD players, LCD TV's and video projectors. The IP00C772 is an ideal solution for low-cost designs, because it only requires one (1) SDRAM device of external memory.

Does the Z-11 count as a "low-cost design" at $5K?

The Z-11 is not low cost but the deinterlacing chip that is being used is targetted for low cost designs. What that translates to is that its probably really cheap to implement and thus it will probably not be very good. You can have a good scaling chip but if you have poor de-interlacing then you're pretty much screwed.

As some have pointed out in this thread, the Video processing features aren't important to them (as customers) and I bet yamaha is banking on the fact that most people won't care.
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