don't seperates kill even the best receiver? - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 196 Old 08-04-2007, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Hi Fi, a quick glance at your setup and right away I see a lot of flat & smooth surfaces near your mains - the TV itself, glass equipment cabinet doors and the TV cabinet itself. The more of those types of surfaces in your room the brighter it will be. You're also likely dealing with issues from your right main being so close to the wall - you have no choice obviously - but your first reflection point being that close will mess with things also.
I'd need to see bit more of of the room to get a better idea of what they are firing into, but it does seem like there's a few things you could do to reduce the brightness room-wise. Also I really hope there's no back panel behind your CC otherwise I'm fairly certian that placement is a no-no. If it were me I'd wall mount the flat screen to get it further behind your mains and put the CC on top of the cabinet to it give room to "breathe".

That wicker basket gives me an idea for WAF approved bass-traps!!! Got to give that some more thought. ....

rnrgagne -

Thanks for the analysis of my room. I have read enough about speaker set-up and room accosutics to know that my room has some big problems. But trust me, I have done the best that I can with speaker placement given all the windows and doors in this room. I hate that my left front speaker is a foot and a half from the side wall, but as you can see, I have a doorway on that back wall that prevents me from shifting everying over a couple of feet.

You will notice that I had to make yet another compromise with the placememt of the rear speakers. I had to place my dipole surround speakers on the back wall instead of the sides. I actually tried placing them on the sides for a while, but because the only location was slightly in front of the seating position they sounded even more disconnected from the front soundstage than they do in the rear. I wish Paradigm made front firing on-walls.

I wanted to place the front stage on what is currently the back wall, as there is plenty of space for proper positioning back there, but then there would not be enough room for our couch on the other end (where the TV is now), and there would be no place for rear speakers at all.

Do you really think the TV and the glass cabinets behind the speakers affect the sound that much? Does enough HF sound really wrap around the back of the speaker? The TV is about a foot behid the face of the speakers. Would temporarily covering the TV with a heavy blanket be a good way to test for an improvement in sound?

At least I've got one thing working for me, the cabinet was custom made for that center speaker, and I made sure there was no back in the space where it sits.

Here is the rest of my room. Suggestions welcome.

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=IMG_0171.jpg

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=IMG_0170.jpg

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=IMG_0169.jpg

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=IMG_0168.jpg

http://s80.photobucket.com/albums/j1...t=PDR_0582.jpg
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post #182 of 196 Old 08-04-2007, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I'm sorry, I don't follow. What do you mean?

Now if the distortion graphs had looked like this, I could see a possible concern with high output.
If my distortion graphs read like this My System would soon catch fire and thats worse than a blown Tweeter!

THe links you Posted:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/me...udio_focus_110/

Or this:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/m...l_concerta_f12/

Or this:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/pmc_gb1/

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post #183 of 196 Old 08-04-2007, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Raymond Leggs View Post

Now if the distortion graphs had looked like this, I could see a possible concern with high output.
If my distortion graphs read like this My System would soon catch fire and thats worse than a blown Tweeter!

THe links you Posted:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/me...udio_focus_110/

Or this:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/m...l_concerta_f12/

Or this:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/pmc_gb1/

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post #184 of 196 Old 08-05-2007, 10:35 AM
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Hi Fi,

The first set of pics I saw didn't give much of a sense of where things are in the room. To me it looked like the glass cabinet on the side extended past the fronts but that doesn't appear to be the case. Still all speakers have different dispersion patterns, do they extend behind the speaker? Not sure. But there's a reason for that hump on the top of your S4's, it has something to do with the tweeters dispersion and that hump is behind the tweeter obviously. So it wouldn't hurt to try the blanket over the TV to see what the effect is before contemplating moving it.
Despite the fact that you custom built the stand for the C3 I'm still a bit leery of having a speaker inside a cabinet, I don't think there's any way to avoid unwanted cabinet induced resonances.
I can't tell if your drapes have a backing or if they are lightweight and acoustically transparent. If they are the latter then all that glass will have a big affect and you should consider putting a backing on them. Other than that the only other thing you could do is treat the first reflection point -specifically of the right speaker because of its' proximity to the wall.

Why don't you e-mail Paradigm with the same info & pics and see what advice they offer up? After all, you did give them a large chunk of change..
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post #185 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Using capacitors in series pairs, with a positive charge added to the common point of those pairs will keep the audio signal from crossing the dielectric zero point, thus keeping the crossover operating in class A mode. That eliminates one type of distortion.

"Class A" capacitors? Sorry, but that sounds like a made-up phenomenon.

Bob Lee
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QSC Audio Products, LLC
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post #186 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 11:25 AM
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What about tastefully made foldable shoji screens that you'd make yourself using acoustic panels or batting and then covered up in the fabric of your choice? You'd position them where you need them when you need them and then place them out of the way when not needed? Get the wife to pick the fabric to make her a partner in crime.


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post #187 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Chu Gai View Post

What about tastefully made foldable shoji screens that you'd make yourself using acoustic panels or batting and then covered up in the fabric of your choice? You'd position them where you need them when you need them and then place them out of the way when not needed? Get the wife to pick the fabric to make her a partner in crime.



Not a bad idea. I've got to get creative that's for sure.
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post #188 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

"Class A" capacitors? Sorry, but that sounds like a made-up phenomenon.

Bob -

From all of the posts I've read of your's, you seem like a knowledgable guy with a no nonsense approach. And since you are an amp guy, I've always wondered something that I hope you have some insight on. If a solid state amp has flat frequency response (+/- .3 dB) and low distortion (less than 1%), and it is not being driven to clipping, can it still have a sound of it's own? Are there other things that are measurable or unmeasurable that can affect the sound quality of an amp?

Thanks,

- Tim
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post #189 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 12:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Bob -

From all of the posts I've read of your's, you seem like a knowledgable guy with a no nonsense approach. And since you are an amp guy, I've always wondered something that I hope you have some insight on. If a solid state amp has flat frequency response (+/- .3 dB) and low distortion (less than 1%), and it is not being driven to clipping, can it still have a sound of it's own? Are there other things that are measurable or unmeasurable that can affect the sound quality of an amp?

Thanks,

- Tim

This should be good.
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post #190 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuthed View Post

This should be good.

I know that this topic has been beat to death, but there is just so much hearsay on the subject and I have always wanted to hear the opinion of an Engineer on the subject, or at least someone that works for a company that actually designs and builds amps.
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post #191 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 01:11 PM
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Are there other things that are measurable or unmeasurable that can affect the sound quality of an amp?

Certainly. Imagine a source that's feeding the amp that has ultrasonic/RFI (above 20K) distortion products. Now imagine that the amp displays non-linearities above 20K. The result is that you'll get IM distortion products manifesting themselves in the audible region with the usual comments about harshness, graininess, etc. There have been CDP's and amps that have been very unfriendly matches just for reasons such as this and they weren't part of the generic, mass market stuff either.

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post #192 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I know that this topic has been beat to death, but there is just so much hearsay on the subject and I have always wanted to hear the opinion of an Engineer on the subject, or at least someone that works for a company that actually designs and builds amps.

http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=849549

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post #193 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Bob -

From all of the posts I've read of your's, you seem like a knowledgable guy with a no nonsense approach. And since you are an amp guy, I've always wondered something that I hope you have some insight on. If a solid state amp has flat frequency response (+/- .3 dB) and low distortion (less than 1%), and it is not being driven to clipping, can it still have a sound of it's own? Are there other things that are measurable or unmeasurable that can affect the sound quality of an amp?

Thanks,

- Tim

Hi Tim,

If the amp is genuinely accurate, it will not have a "sound of its own." And it will in fact sound just like any other highly accurate amp (allowing for differences in power). Any two amps that put out identical signals will sound the same through the same loudspeakers in the same listening environment; other than the signal there is no other conveyer of sound quality to the loudspeakers--no side channel or metadata telling the loudspeaker to act refined because it's hooked up to a cryogenically-treated and magnetically-aligned Celestial Sound Megamoolah 12000, or squirrelly because the amp is a PA piece bought used. If it's not in the signal, it's not there.

But there is much more than just frequency response and distortion, although those are two huge defining factors in sound quality. At QSC and probably many other manufacturers, there are hundreds of tests done on amplifer designs from development through qualification. Many of them are directly related to sonic performance, like THD, frequency response, noise, et al, and many of them are tangentially about performance but more directly about reliability and usability. For example, does the amp circuitry generate any artifacts that don't show up in a distortion test? How hot does it get (excessive temperature is a major killer of electronics, which is why I never advocate disabling the fan)? Will it run on a 15A outlet? How does the amp behave when it clips?

Excessive hum and noise can squash sound quality, primarily during quiet passages, in between tracks, etc. Instabilities like Chu Gai mentioned can cause audible problems, too. Different types of distortion can have varying effects on audibility, too. For example, we're all familiar with the distortion that arises from clipping, due to non-linearity as the output voltage reaches the maximum limits of its swing. But the distortion from light and even moderate clipping can be inaudible or maybe barely discernible, even if it measures rather high. Crossover distortion, OTOH, might measure extremely low on a THD test using a sine wave at or near the amp's full output, but it could have a devastating on sound quality because its biggest effect is on the smaller signal levels.

If any artifact or oddity in the amp's performance is significant enough in the signal to be heard, it can be identified one way or another. If it can be identified, it can be measured. If it can be measured, it can be understood. If it can be understood, it can be corrected.

Bob Lee
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QSC Audio Products, LLC
Costa Mesa, Calif.

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post #194 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Lee (QSC) View Post

Hi Tim,

If any artifact or oddity in the amp's performance is significant enough in the signal to be heard, it can be identified one way or another. If it can be identified, it can be measured. If it can be measured, it can be understood. If it can be understood, it can be corrected.

Thanks Bob! That's what I suspected.

So when will QSC be releasing the "cryogenically-treated and magnetically-aligned Celestial Sound Megamoolah 12000"? Based on the model number, I assume that it will put out 12,000 wpc? I think that should just be enough power for my 10" x 10" listening room. And because it is magnetically-aligned, I also assume it will sound best at low-tide when there is less effect of the moon's gravitational pull on the circuitry?
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post #195 of 196 Old 08-06-2007, 05:09 PM
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Thanks for the link. That was a good and sometimes entertaining read.
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post #196 of 196 Old 01-23-2008, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by oztech View Post

coming from separates to flagship rec i can say imo that the difference is not night and day
on the units in the last couple of years in the past i would agree good quality separates still
sound better its just that margin is closing fast unless you use low efficient speakers in a large
room playing at high levels then an amp is very much needed but to make a statement that
the flagships some not all will never compete with separates of the same price tells me someone
has not ab this in their home.

I use an Onkyo 805 as a pre/pro, with Krell amps doing the power. A few observations: The Onkyo is BETTER than some of the high cost high pedigree
dedicated pre/prose I've used, and is MUCH better than the 5 ch analog McCormack pre that it replaced. As for the Krell amps, I doubt anyone would question their quality, BUT the difference is NOT as much as you might expect, given the hefty price.

Anyone who still believes that the best receivers have not improved dramatically in the last few years either hasn't taken the time to listen, or is still writing BS based on an experience that is dated and probably biased.
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