The "Official" Yamaha RX-V1800/RX-V3800 Thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 8664 Old 03-08-2008, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Anything is possible, but it's pretty unlikely the sub output is bad.

Double check you have the sub plugged into the sub woofer pre-out and not the sub woofer multi channel input (there are two RCA connectors labelled "SUB WOOFER", and only one is the correct one).

(Naturally you're sure that everything is plugged in correctly and powered up at the sub woofer end )

Yep that was it , thanks . Is the best way to set up the speaker levels is using the YPAO ?

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post #3062 of 8664 Old 03-08-2008, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Brainfry View Post

It was the player... I swapped 'em recently, and forgot to do the initial set-up, do'h! It was set for the wrong mix. So many variables, it's easy to miss the obvious... oh, such as not saving the center channel settings on the 1800 so dialogue was split between the front speakers too... ha. Ugh, at least it's set up now.

Thanks!

B

How were you able to get dialogue through both the center and front speakers?

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post #3063 of 8664 Old 03-08-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bottoms View Post

Yep that was it , thanks . Is the best way to set up the speaker levels is using the YPAO ?

YPAO will probably get the speaker distances and levels right, but it's good to check it manually if you have a sound level meter. Just don't expect the auto-setup to be infallible.

For general setup tips you'll find a lot of stuff in the audio setup forum.
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post #3064 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 10:52 AM
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I found YPAO does make mistakes with some of my speakers. My SW is right next to my left main speaker. Distance is bascially exactly the same. YPAO will say the left main speaker is 14 feet, the sw 16 feet.

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post #3065 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 11:44 AM
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WPC asside (doesn't mean much to me, running ext. amps anyway)

Is the 663 lacking anything the 1800 offers? (SQ) I was sold on the 1800 until the last batch of AVR came out from Y.

I've read the 663 thread, and I'm just more confused..

I'm using Klipsch Reference and Outlaw amps. PS3 and Tivo HD for source.
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post #3066 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illthreat View Post

WPC asside (doesn't mean much to me, running ext. amps anyway)

Is the 663 lacking anything the 1800 offers? (SQ) I was sold on the 1800 until the last batch of AVR came out from Y.

I've read the 663 thread, and I'm just more confused..

I'm using Klipsch Reference and Outlaw amps. PS3 and Tivo HD for source.


Compare 1800 & 663:
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/compare/De...&B_compare.y=5
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post #3067 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 12:39 PM
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Thanks, Toby!

But, what I was wondering about are the specs not shown on paper. ie: dacs, diodes, menus, osd, etc.. all the fluffy stuff

ie: the 1800 has a "night" mode but the 663 utilizes ____ ?

Should I put much "weight" on the parts inside? What about the actual weight of the units in comparison? The 1800 is quite a bit more hefty.
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post #3068 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illthreat View Post

Thanks, Toby!

But, what I was wondering about are the specs not shown on paper. ie: dacs, diodes, menus, osd, etc.. all the fluffy stuff

ie: the 1800 has a "night" mode but the 663 utilizes ____ ?

Should I put much "weight" on the parts inside? What about the actual weight of the units in comparison? The 1800 is quite a bit more hefty.

Features are cheap these days (it's mostly just digital processing). For sound quality I think the 1800 should be a cut above the 663 and 863. I don't have any hard evidence, but I think the extra 11 lbs means something (until the marketing types decide they should start adding lead weights inside!).

Also the 663 only has 2 HMDI inputs, which for me would not be enough.
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post #3069 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

I found YPAO does make mistakes with some of my speakers. My SW is right next to my left main speaker. Distance is bascially exactly the same. YPAO will say the left main speaker is 14 feet, the sw 16 feet.

The sub is the one speaker that will usually NOT be set to its actual physical distance. The signal path through a powered sub is different, and usually you have a phase control on the sub which effectively changes the signal delay by a variable amount. So the distance set by YPAO ought to take all that into account and set the distance that puts the sub in phase with the main speakers at the crossover frequency.

I don't think YPAO always gets everything right, but if you manually change the sub distance after YPAO has run you are doing exactly the same thing as moving your sub's phase control. So if YPAO did have it right, it's now wrong.
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post #3070 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Features are cheap these days (it's mostly just digital processing). For sound quality I think the 1800 should be a cut above the 663 and 863. I don't have any hard evidence, but I think the extra 11 lbs means something (until the marketing types decide they should start adding lead weights inside!).

Also the 663 only has 2 HMDI inputs, which for me would not be enough.

Much of the V1800's weight and cost is gonna be amps, so those who plan to use the V663 as a pre-amp probably don't want the V1800.
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post #3071 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 02:33 PM
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Thinkin' about picking up the V3800, but was concerned about the video processing. How has your guys' experience been with the video capabilites if the 3800 compared to other AVRs? I've heard good and bad things about the ABT1010 chip...

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post #3072 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

Features are cheap these days (it's mostly just digital processing). For sound quality I think the 1800 should be a cut above the 663 and 863. I don't have any hard evidence, but I think the extra 11 lbs means something (until the marketing types decide they should start adding lead weights inside!).

Also the 663 only has 2 HMDI inputs, which for me would not be enough.


I really appreciate the feedback. I was sold on the 1800 before the new AVR came out (663/883). Not sure if I care about having a built in HD Tuner for the 863.

I like that fact the 1800 is clean on the front panel.. not cluttered.. but the 663 looks like a killer deal ($900 vs $400).. choices, choices.

Is there a difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.3a?

Would the 1800 be a 'bad buy' with these newer AVR's on the market? What about having the ABT1010 on the 1800 vs. the 663/883?
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post #3073 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 03:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

The sub is the one speaker that will usually NOT be set to its actual physical distance. The signal path through a powered sub is different, and usually you have a phase control on the sub which effectively changes the signal delay by a variable amount. So the distance set by YPAO ought to take all that into account and set the distance that puts the sub in phase with the main speakers at the crossover frequency.

I don't think YPAO always gets everything right, but if you manually change the sub distance after YPAO has run you are doing exactly the same thing as moving your sub's phase control. So if YPAO did have it right, it's now wrong.

YAPO has my sub 2 11ft , it's 3 ft away . Don't completly understand the set up.It said to set my sub half volume ,but max crossover .It now has the sub @ 200 Hz. If I turn the crossover frequancy contrl back to half (100Hz?) does that correct it or do I leave the sub at max crossover and make the adjustment on the 1800?

Pioneer 4270 Yamaha RX-V1800 PS 3 Paradigm CC 110 Panasonic 42 X24
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post #3074 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 04:03 PM
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"if you manually change the sub distance after YPAO has run you are doing exactly the same thing as moving your sub's phase control. So if YPAO did have it right, it's now wrong."

Well maybe. I understand phasing and driver alignment like in angled front baffles to keep the starting point for the waves/sound coming from drivers all at exactly the same starting points. It certainly is the case that drivers phasing can be "tweaked" based on physical location of the driver. Hard to imagine though 2 feet difference. The SW doesn't sound out of phase in any way even when I reset it to the same distance as the tower speakers its next to.

Also the frequency settings from YPAO are at best suspicious. I've checked my speakers with an earlier Stereophile Magazine test disk and a Radio Shack SPL AND I built my towers so I know what the xover is doing and what the efficiency ratings are for each driver. They have been tweaked to be as flat as reasonably possible and then YPAO tells me I need to drop 80hz-120hz by as much as -8.5db? Could be I guess but in my front foom with all the furniture/carpet/curtains/etc/ absorbing sound on top of it, seems to me the equalizer settings are way off. When using them just to see the result was empty. Not flat. Just no punch, maybe anemic is a good word.

YPAO does some things well like checking speakers, wiring, phasing, etc. Not so sure about volume, distance and equalizing. I think it needs some improvements.

My previous Pioneer 1015 MACC did a better job in my experience.

The YPAO is not like a deal breaker and no way I like my 1800 any less, love it in fact. I just don't depend too much on YPAO.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3075 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 04:21 PM
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toby10,

I heard back from Yamaha and they indicate the display is not a bug. It is adjusting the same frequency but different aspects of that frequency differently. So it will show 80 twice, etc. Different Q's, etc., as noted in terms of different bands. Although they didn't use the "band" word, it is the case that while the frequency is the same, every other aspect of it is different so that's why it lists the same frequency twice.

I'm still trying to figure out how to cycle through all the bands/options just to see what is going on.

Edit: Also I'm trying to find out exactly what a "band" is for this purpose. The manual talks about freqency/gain/q but unless I'm missing it, which could be the case, I don't see exactly what makes up a "band" for the "7 bands".

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3076 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VarmintCong View Post

Much of the V1800's weight and cost is gonna be amps, so those who plan to use the V663 as a pre-amp probably don't want the V1800.

True, but I was assuming that anyone buying a receiver in the price range of the V663 would not be into separate power amps.
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post #3077 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illthreat View Post

I really appreciate the feedback. I was sold on the 1800 before the new AVR came out (663/883). Not sure if I care about having a built in HD Tuner for the 863.

I like that fact the 1800 is clean on the front panel.. not cluttered.. but the 663 looks like a killer deal ($900 vs $400).. choices, choices.

Is there a difference between HDMI 1.3 and HDMI 1.3a?

Would the 1800 be a 'bad buy' with these newer AVR's on the market? What about having the ABT1010 on the 1800 vs. the 663/883?

No significant difference between HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_1.3a

Yamaha are not positioning the 663/883 as replacements for the 1800, their website emphasizes sound quality for the 1800. That said, how much difference will you really hear? I know that the 1800 was a significant step up from my previous 5760, but I don't know whether that was due to the components used, or just general improvements in technology over the last few years.
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post #3078 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bottoms View Post

YAPO has my sub 2 11ft , it's 3 ft away . Don't completly understand the set up.It said to set my sub half volume ,but max crossover .It now has the sub @ 200 Hz. If I turn the crossover frequancy contrl back to half (100Hz?) does that correct it or do I leave the sub at max crossover and make the adjustment on the 1800?

When your receiver is doing bass management (as in this case), you don't want the sub itself to interfere with that. So turn the sub crossover to maximum.

Are you saying the receiver crossover frequency is 200Hz? That's high, because at 200Hz you can tell which direction the bass is coming from. I wouldn't have a sub 3 feet away from me unless the crossover frequency was pretty low (probably less than 100Hz).
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post #3079 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"if you manually change the sub distance after YPAO has run you are doing exactly the same thing as moving your sub's phase control. So if YPAO did have it right, it's now wrong."

Well maybe. I understand phasing and driver alignment like in angled front baffles to keep the starting point for the waves/sound coming from drivers all at exactly the same starting points. It certainly is the case that drivers phasing can be "tweaked" based on physical location of the driver. Hard to imagine though 2 feet difference. The SW doesn't sound out of phase in any way even when I reset it to the same distance as the tower speakers its next to.

Also the frequency settings from YPAO are at best suspicious. I've checked my speakers with an earlier Stereophile Magazine test disk and a Radio Shack SPL AND I built my towers so I know what the xover is doing and what the efficiency ratings are for each driver. They have been tweaked to be as flat as reasonably possible and then YPAO tells me I need to drop 80hz-120hz by as much as -8.5db? Could be I guess but in my front foom with all the furniture/carpet/curtains/etc/ absorbing sound on top of it, seems to me the equalizer settings are way off. When using them just to see the result was empty. Not flat. Just no punch, maybe anemic is a good word.

YPAO does some things well like checking speakers, wiring, phasing, etc. Not so sure about volume, distance and equalizing. I think it needs some improvements.

My previous Pioneer 1015 MACC did a better job in my experience.

The YPAO is not like a deal breaker and no way I like my 1800 any less, love it in fact. I just don't depend too much on YPAO.

Agreed that YPAO (or auto-setup on any receiver) is not perfect. I tried it, didn't like it, and set everything up manually.

But when I said crossover frequency I wasn't referring to the crossover between the drivers in your speakers, I meant the point at which the Yamaha re-directs bass to the sub-woofer from your other speakers (assuming you have speakers set as small). If the crossover is 80Hz (for example) then the wavelength of sound at that frequency is 14 feet, so 7 feet (half the wavelength) is the difference between being perfectly in phase (sub and mains re-enforce each other) and completely out of phase (sub and mains cancel each other out).

The good news is that you don't have to be perfectly in phase, anywhere near is OK. It's only close to the out-of-phase condition that gives you a big hole in the bass near the crossover frequency.
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post #3080 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

True, but I was assuming that anyone buying a receiver in the price range of the V663 would not be into separate power amps.

lol. Why not?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

No significant difference between HDMI 1.3 and 1.3a. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#HDMI_1.3a


Thanks, I've read that wiki link. I tend not to believe everything I read on wiki.. or the internet for that matter. Just wanted to double check. Appreciate it!!



Quote:
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Yamaha are not positioning the 663/883 as replacements for the 1800

I understand that the 663 or 883 is not the 1800 replacement.
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post #3081 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 05:26 PM
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kris....

Actually all except center channel set to large. Have 8 inch 3 ways for rear back/rear surrounds and d'appolito arrays with 2 8 inch woofers each for my towers. My center channel probably could be large as well, 2-5 1/4 inch drivers with tang bend dome tweeter in ported cabinet. With YPAO it sets the xover for the sw to 40 as in the rest of my speakers are getting plenty of bass output "out there". While my 10 inch Klipsch can put out below 40 and does make a difference, I adjust the xover point up to THX xover of 80. I probably could get away without the SW if push came to shove except for those films like Die Hard, etc., that simply need a punch in the chest bass response. I use "Both" for the sw setting.

The information on YPAO equalizer is a little confusing, not a lot, just a little. I wish the manual equalizer had all the same capability if only to help me understand what the YPAO is doing. The manual equalizer may infact have all the same adjustments I just haven't found how to get to them. The manual equalizer is more like I remember with regular equalizers and db adjustments for particlar frequencies. And YPAO will get down to 32 but the manual equalizer stops at 63.

Here's an example of what I mean by confusing. Page 135.

"YPAO adjusts frequency characteristics to suit your listening requirements using a combination of the above three parameters (Frequency, Gain and Q factor) for each
equalizer band in this unit’s parametric equalizer. This unit has 7 equalizer bands for each channel. The use of multiple equalizer bands enables more precise adjustments of frequency characteristics (as in Figure 2). This is not possible using only a single equalizer band (as in Figure 1)."

It could be wrong but appears that the manual is using the same word, "band", to mean two different things. I'm still trying to figure out what components actually make a band a band. So each channel you can adjust 7 bands. Ok, what determines one band from another?

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3082 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

True, but I was assuming that anyone buying a receiver in the price range of the V663 would not be into separate power amps.

Well, you can buy used Rotel amps for like $400-600, would be a great match for the V663 - get all the latest technology matched with good amps. Many may already have the amps too. No need to pay extra for the V1800s amps when you have your own.
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post #3083 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 06:22 PM
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can buy used Rotel amps for like $400-600....

You still end up at the cost point of the 1800. Simplier and the 1800 does look better than the 663.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3084 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

When your receiver is doing bass management (as in this case), you don't want the sub itself to interfere with that. So turn the sub crossover to maximum.

Are you saying the receiver crossover frequency is 200Hz? That's high, because at 200Hz you can tell which direction the bass is coming from. I wouldn't have a sub 3 feet away from me unless the crossover frequency was pretty low (probably less than 100Hz).

Sorry the sub is 3ft away from the front speakers and 9ft from where I sit. So YPAO was close to getting it right . I set it on a tripod where I sit, I will check the receiver crossover again.

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post #3085 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

Actually all except center channel set to large. Have 8 inch 3 ways for rear back/rear surrounds and d'appolito arrays with 2 8 inch woofers each for my towers. My center channel probably could be large as well, 2-5 1/4 inch drivers with tang bend dome tweeter in ported cabinet. With YPAO it sets the xover for the sw to 40 as in the rest of my speakers are getting plenty of bass output "out there". While my 10 inch Klipsch can put out below 40 and does make a difference, I adjust the xover point up to THX xover of 80. I probably could get away without the SW if push came to shove except for those films like Die Hard, etc., that simply need a punch in the chest bass response. I use "Both" for the sw setting.

If you have LFE/BASS OUT set to BOTH then you have some sounds coming from both the front L and R and the sub, so you should still worry about the sub phase. I did a test where I played a pure sine wave tone (from a CD) at my crossover frequency, and I monitored the level on my SPL meter while varying the sub distance (i.e. the phase relative to the other speakers). There was a big difference in volume between the in phase and out of phase conditions. If you're unlucky enough to get the sub out of phase, the bass will be reduced significantly. If it sounds OK, maybe you're lucky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

The information on YPAO equalizer is a little confusing, not a lot, just a little. I wish the manual equalizer had all the same capability if only to help me understand what the YPAO is doing. The manual equalizer may infact have all the same adjustments I just haven't found how to get to them. The manual equalizer is more like I remember with regular equalizers and db adjustments for particlar frequencies. And YPAO will get down to 32 but the manual equalizer stops at 63.

I think we talked about this a few pages back. On the 3800 the manual EQ has all the capabilities of the YPAO auto-EQ, but on the 1800 the manual EQ is different (it has 7 fixed bands).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

It could be wrong but appears that the manual is using the same word, "band", to mean two different things. I'm still trying to figure out what components actually make a band a band. So each channel you can adjust 7 bands. Ok, what determines one band from another?

Think of each band as a separate filter that is being applied to the signal. On the 1800 manual EQ, each filter has a fixed centre frequency and width, and only the gain is adjustable. With YPAO (and manual EQ on the 3800) each filter has a selectable centre frequency (to the nearest 1/3 octave) and a selectable width (Q-factor), as well as an adjustable gain.
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post #3086 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by BFRedrocks View Post

Thinkin' about picking up the V3800, but was concerned about the video processing. How has your guys' experience been with the video capabilites if the 3800 compared to other AVRs? I've heard good and bad things about the ABT1010 chip...


I was saying to myself last night how well it upscaled a STD TV.... Looks fine to me.
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post #3087 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 08:28 PM
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"If you're unlucky enough to get the sub out of phase, the bass will be reduced significantly. If it sounds OK, maybe you're lucky."

Yes. But my sw is not out of phase so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

With the 1800 "selectable" is probably not the right word. You can't select it. The software of the 1800 YPAO process decides all by itself. Not sure how it decides but it does somehow.

This would be one reason practical reason that the 3800 is of greater value. And given the way the YPAO works the same on both one would have to wonder if the difference is simply software and not hardware in terms of the equalizer capability.

"7 fixed bands...."

Yes, I understand "bands" when it refers to the 7 fixed bands for the manual equalizer. Having multiple "bands" within those "bands" is where it gets a bit confusing.

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #3088 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by toby10 View Post

Yeah, and I think anything less than N would just drag down the entire network (assuming N is backwards compatible to B & G). I think there is a way to make a wireless router into a "bridge" but that might be a pricey bridge on an N network.

I did a bit of testing today with various home-made wireless tools (Intel packs in some nice stuff with the Dells) and discovered that I am getting about 18-24Mbps into the 3800 at 45' from the router, sooooo this is plenty fast. If I put a laptop right next to it running WMP11 at the same speed the streaming is impeccable. So, since I am geting problems with WMP11 (server) -> either PS3 or 3800, but not to Vista WMP11 on a laptop, I conclude that MS has a lock on this and neither the PS3 or the 3800 buffer correctly... in other words I got plenty of bandwidth except for the odd stumble which will screw up the system unless it is buffered.

There is a lot on this on the web in reference to the PS3 where there are also a lot of pleasant digital rights issues. Next to nothing on the Yamaha. Looks like I am into USB for my music collection. The interface, in any case, is lousy on the 3800 compared to either WMP11 or the SONY or for that matter iTunes. This is I expect all fixable with an upgrade, but would not hold my breath for one.

Bottom line, do not buy this machine to stream audio unless you are hardwired in, and then you will have a hard time with the interface.... try to scroll through 600 artists showing 10 at a time..... luckily I did not buy the machine with this as its primary use.... I doubt anyone would.... but it is a feature that comes up short... especially at this price. Take a look at the SONY or even Microsoft interfaces for a comparison.
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post #3089 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"If you're unlucky enough to get the sub out of phase, the bass will be reduced significantly. If it sounds OK, maybe you're lucky."

Yes. But my sw is not out of phase so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

I don't want to make a bigger deal out of this than it really is, but how do you know your sub is perfectly in phase? It's not a yes/no situation, it can be anywhere between 0 and 180 degrees out of phase, and each extra foot of distance you add in the receiver changes the sub's phase relative to the other speakers (by about 25 degrees at 80Hz, where the wavelength is 14 feet).

Here's a link to an article that goes into more detail http://www.klipschcorner.com/Article...c-29f8aa90869f

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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

This would be one reason practical reason that the 3800 is of greater value. And given the way the YPAO works the same on both one would have to wonder if the difference is simply software and not hardware in terms of the equalizer capability.

I'm sure it's a pure software limitation designed to help justify the higher price of the 3800. But for me it was a non-issue because the 3800 PEQ is not flexible enough to EQ a sub properly, and it's not really needed at higher frequencies where the GEQ is good enough.

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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"7 fixed bands...."

Yes, I understand "bands" when it refers to the 7 fixed bands for the manual equalizer. Having multiple "bands" within those "bands" is where it gets a bit confusing.

No bands within bands Each band has an associated frequency, gain and Q factor. It's just that frequency and Q factor are fixed for each band of the 1800's manual GEQ, but they are variable for the 3800's manual PEQ (hence it's possible for two bands of the PEQ to be set to the same frequency).
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post #3090 of 8664 Old 03-09-2008, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

can buy used Rotel amps for like $400-600....

You still end up at the cost point of the 1800. Simplier and the 1800 does look better than the 663.

Similar cost and better power using the pre-outs on the 663 to a good seperate amp. "Simplier" is not a factor for me, and I'll choose peformance over appearance any day of the week.
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