The "Official" Yamaha RX-V1800/RX-V3800 Thread - Page 24 - AVS Forum
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post #691 of 8664 Old 12-26-2007, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan-the-Man View Post

I need detailed help to setup my mp3 access on my 3800, using WMP11: I already have setup on my computer in the following manner:I have groupings in 6 directories: under Jazz directory, I have three subs -- A-G, H-P, and Q-Z; and Rock, also, A-G, H-P, and Q-Z

But WMP11 puts all the 8000 files in alpha order by: album name, artist, and genre.

When I enter the PC/Network screen to select an artist, I painfully scroll down to the artist that I desire to hear -- taking a lengthy period of time, since the 3800 hesitates after each scrolled page.

Any help form anyone with a 3800, I will appreciate it!

DTM

Yeah, doesn't sound like they have improved the networking/USB functionality from the 2700 to the 3800.

Like you, I wish there were a button on the remote to scroll up or down one full page. I know there were firmware updates for the 1700 and 2700 specifically related to networking with WMP11. I do not use WMP11 nor the computer networking feature, so I have no clue what this update fixes. Though you may want to call Yamaha and ask if there is such an update for the 3800. Can't hurt to ask.

I'm going to guess that WMP11 cannot be instructed to have access to multiple music folders?
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post #692 of 8664 Old 12-26-2007, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mka View Post

To breevesdc re Question 1:

I am upconverting my component inputs and discovered that the output goes to both the HDMI and the component out.

Thank you mka. That helps a lot with my decision (even if #2 turns out to be "no").

Brian
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post #693 of 8664 Old 12-26-2007, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christop43 View Post

Does the RX-V3800 have any problems with sound delay? I just returned a Onkyo 805 to Amazon because of lip sync issues. I just read this entire thread and didn't notice anyone having this problem with the RX-V3800 but figured I would ask.

I'd really like to see some answers to this question, because I'm beginning to have my doubts about lip sync on the 1800.

I've not yet tried to make any actual measurements of audio delay, but with the manual delay set to 0ms I'm not 100% happy with the lip sync, and adding delay only makes it worse. This is with an HDMI connection from a PS3, and HDMI out to a Z5 projector. My previous Yamaha (5760) definitely had less audio delay, but I can't say exactly how much.

It's not really bad, and of course sometimes it can be a badly authored disk, but I can never seem to get it perfectly in sync. I suppose I could try adding some extra distance to all the speakers and see if that helps (as was reported in the Onkyo thread).
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post #694 of 8664 Old 12-26-2007, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kriktsemaj99 View Post

I'd really like to see some answers to this question, because I'm beginning to have my doubts about lip sync on the 1800.

I've not yet tried to make any actual measurements of audio delay, but with the manual delay set to 0ms I'm not 100% happy with the lip sync, and adding delay only makes it worse. This is with an HDMI connection from a PS3, and HDMI out to a Z5 projector. My previous Yamaha (5760) definitely had less audio delay, but I can't say exactly how much.

It's not really bad, and of course sometimes it can be a badly authored disk, but I can never seem to get it perfectly in sync. I suppose I could try adding some extra distance to all the speakers and see if that helps (as was reported in the Onkyo thread).

I dont have any lip sync issues with my 3800, connected to a Panny AX100 PJ and Loewe 37" LCD via HDMI. I get some lag on one particular channel every now and then, which has nothing to do with the equipment, rather a broadcasters problem. However, in an age where digital displays process audio quicker than video, Im not surprised lip sync is a big issue for many.

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post #695 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 04:43 AM
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No problem here either with the 3800. Like MarkH posted above, I get occasional delay from a few cable channels, but other sources play fine:
Tosh XA2
Denon 2930CI
Both are HDMI to the 3800, and HDMI from the 3800 to a Sony 46XBR4.
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post #696 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 04:58 AM
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Hi everyone!!

As I was mentioned before, I am 5 days owner of an 1800.

As this is my very first hi-fi receiver ever used, I need a bit of help with surround settings. I have a classic 5.1 system of speakers and I have run YPAO.

I am curious what changes have you made after running YPAO, using Manual Set-Up or Parameters.

I am interested especially if you are using GEQ, and which are the settings for it too.

Thank you very much.
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post #697 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 07:00 AM
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The HDMI spec includes a Consumer Electronics Control (CEC) channel that allows one component in a system to control another. In theory, you could put a DVD in your player and it would turn the AVR and TV on and automatically set all components up for playback.

Just starting to play with this -- has anyone here gotten into the CEC stuff with the 1800/3800?

It doesn't appear that there are any settings to play with and the AVR just passes this through. Does the 1800/3800 do anything with this other than passing it between HDMI components? I'm not seeing anything in the manual that even mentions this, but my TV is definitely talking to the DVD Recorder (both connected to the 1800 via HDMI).
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post #698 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 07:42 AM
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I've got another question: what happens if I select a DSP program, e.g. Movie -Adventure which has set as a decoder PLII, for a DVD which has a 5.1 sound? Are the sound channels mixed somehow, or they remains intact and in this case PLII has no influence at all?

Thank you again.
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post #699 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tatanka01 View Post

The HDMI spec includes a Consumer Electronics Control (CEC) channel that allows one component in a system to control another. In theory, you could put a DVD in your player and it would turn the AVR and TV on and automatically set all components up for playback.

Just starting to play with this -- has anyone here gotten into the CEC stuff with the 1800/3800?

[...]

While some manufacturers (e.g. Onkyo, Sony, ...) implement HDMI CEC (under a variety of marketing names, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-De...ontrol_channel), this is an optional feature of HDMI. I don't think that 1800/3800 have it. While I could not find any hint of HDMI CEC on my RX-V3800, it seems to me that the key component to make it work would be the TV in a master controller role.
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post #700 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semaca View Post

I've got another question: what happens if I select a DSP program, e.g. Movie -Adventure which has set as a decoder PLII, for a DVD which has a 5.1 sound? Are the sound channels mixed somehow, or they remains intact and in this case PLII has no influence at all?

Thank you again.

I think Dolby ProLogic (PL & PLII) are really designed to take two channel audio and "make it" (down-mix, up-mix, re-convert, etc...) output to 5.1 or 7.1.

PL is 5.1, PLII is 7.1. I don't think there is any advantage to trying PLII on a 5.1 system as it would probably down-mix it to 5.1 anyway (assuming your system is properly set up and only recognizes your 5 speakers).

If you tell your AVR you have a 7.1 system but only have 5 speakers (plus sub) then the PLII will send audio to two speakers that don't exist.

But try all the DSP's on many different sources. That's half the fun of a feature rich unit: playing, twiddling, tweaking. You may well like PLII on some sources.
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post #701 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christop43 View Post

Does the RX-V3800 have any problems with sound delay? I just returned a Onkyo 805 to Amazon because of lip sync issues. I just read this entire thread and didn't notice anyone having this problem with the RX-V3800 but figured I would ask.

Lip-sync problems are usually minor and depend on the program. Nominally, the cause is that video processing takes longer than audio, so audio lags video. However, the entire digital architecture where A/V sync problems are even allowed to arise is a bug. The need for A/V sync should have been anticipated and lip sync problems prevented by design.

HDMI 1.3 allows the TV to communicate delays to the A/V receiver and supposedly correct lip sync automatically. Maybe this works (RX-V3800 implements auto lip-sync) but the whole process depends on the TV, and most TVs don't do auto lip-sync (yet).

Besides, the entire industry has a fundamentally flawed approach, where A/V sync is a house of cards with numerous pieces of equipment between the live event and your playback equipment making their own adjustments based on expectation of delays present somewhere else. TV stations make adjustments, satellite receivers do, A/V receivers have them, and at the end of this entire chain, the viewer is left with an uneasy feeling of unreality because lip sync is wrong -- but very difficult to detect and adjust by eye/ear alone.

So, what is to be done? I gave up on 2007. It may be a decade before the industry provides a functional method to guarantee that the viewer sees and hears synchronized picture and sound based on timing markers recorded during the live event. This situation is infuriating and has no engineering justification. The problem is political: Fragmented nature of signal processing and lack of implementation even for existing standards, e.g. HDMI 1.3 auto lip-sync.

BTW, in absence of an auto lip-sync capable TV, Yamaha's manual lip-sync adjustment is totally brain dead: To adjust it, you need to go to a GUI which takes 5-10 seconds to appear, and replaces the video -- so there is no way to see the effect of changes until you get out of the GUI, which takes another 5-10 seconds. Who thought that up?
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post #702 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Semaca View Post

I've got another question: what happens if I select a DSP program, e.g. Movie -Adventure which has set as a decoder PLII, for a DVD which has a 5.1 sound? Are the sound channels mixed somehow, or they remains intact and in this case PLII has no influence at all?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toby10 View Post

I think Dolby ProLogic (PL & PLII) are really designed to take two channel audio and "make it" (down-mix, up-mix, re-convert, etc...) output to 5.1 or 7.1.

PL is 5.1, PLII is 7.1. I don't think there is any advantage to trying PLII on a 5.1 system as it would probably down-mix it to 5.1 anyway (assuming your system is properly set up and only recognizes your 5 speakers).

If you tell your AVR you have a 7.1 system but only have 5 speakers (plus sub) then the PLII will send audio to two speakers that don't exist.

But try all the DSP's on many different sources. That's half the fun of a feature rich unit: playing, twiddling, tweaking. You may well like PLII on some sources.

As toby10 says, PLII is creates multi-channel tracks from 2-channel sources. However, PLII is designed for 5.1 output, while PLIIx is designed for 6.1 or 7.1 output.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_P...y_Pro_Logic_II

On my 1800 (5.1 setup), only 2 channel sources are given the PLII processing. When using a multi-channel input source, pressing Sur. Decode on the remote brings up the straight codec (DD or DTS) being processed. AFAIK, the DSP modes process on top of standard decoding.
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post #703 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jpco View Post

As toby10 says, PLII is creates multi-channel tracks from 2-channel sources. However, PLII is designed for 5.1 output, while PLIIx is designed for 6.1 or 7.1 output.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_P...y_Pro_Logic_II

On my 1800 (5.1 setup), only 2 channel sources are given the PLII processing. When using a multi-channel input source, pressing Sur. Decode on the remote brings up the straight codec (DD or DTS) being processed. AFAIK, the DSP modes process on top of standard decoding.

Yup. You are indeed correct. PL is 4.0, PLII is 5.1 and PLIIx is 6.1 or 7.1

Thanks
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post #704 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 01:01 PM
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I made some measurements of the audio delay through the HTR-6190 (RX-V1800) after getting the idea from the Onkyo 805 thread. I used a similar method, with a microphone plugged into my computer's soundcard, and line out from the sound card into the receiver. Then I put the microphone near a speaker and tapped the mike. Recording this clearly shows two spikes in the waveform for each tap, and the difference is the audio delay (total of sound card and receiver delays).

To find the sound card delay I first connected it to the analog input of old tube TV, which should have no significant delay of is own. That showed a 32ms delay though the sound card itself (this is an external USB device and has quite a lot of buffering). So all other measurements had 32ms subtracted.

Here are the results using the front panel VIDEO AUX input (analog and optical), for Pure Direct and PLIIx modes:-

Pure Direct analog: 0ms
Pure Direct optical: 4ms (might just be extra delay in the sound card optical out)
PLIIx analog: 23ms
PLIIx optical: 41ms (could be 37ms if 4ms is due to the sound card optical output)

I also tried adding 30ft to the speaker distance and the delay did not change (which is what I would expect if this feature is implemented properly).

Pure Direct has essentially no delay as expected. What's most interesting is that the optical input has a significantly longer delay than analog when PLIIx processing is used. Probably the digital signal goes through some extra processing stages (on this receiver I don't think all the processing options apply to analog inputs). I don't have a way to measure the delay on the HDMI input so I can only guess it's the same as the optical, but it could be different.

At about 40ms, the audio delay is probably not more than the video delay in many displays, but it's starting to be a bit worrying. Remember that we're now often just passing HDMI video without scaling or other processing (no need to buffer frames like there is when de-interlacing standard definition video). So displays are getting faster while receivers are getting slower!

I doubt the Yamaha audio delay is worse than most modern receivers, and With the delay set to zero I can live with it even though I don't think it's quite perfect with my particular set up. But an option to delay the video would be great in a receiver (or in the display or DVD player for that matter). Maybe the CE companies have dropped the ball in thinking only the audio delay needs to be programmable, and it wouldn't be hard to offer the option of a 1 or 2 frame video delay (memory is cheap).

P.S. If you try this experiment yourself, be careful not to have the volume too loud or the mike too close to the speaker or you'll get some nasty feedback.
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post #705 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 01:02 PM
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Anyone have any issue with the receiver shutting off? My RX- V1800 shut off today after about 3hrs of use at the volume around -5. I'm guessing this is just due to overheating? Anyone else experience this? Should I take it back to Best Buy or purchase some fans to sit ontop of the receiver?
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post #706 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 01:11 PM
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I continue to be impressed at how well this receiver handles bass. I know it sounds odd but my bass is just phenomenal. I don't know what is different between this receiver and my old one, but the bass is like night and day. Both receivers were calibrated to 75dB on all channels, but the Yamaha just takes the bass to a whole other level.
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post #707 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 01:16 PM
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sanne, I completely agree with you on the difference in bass and just clarity of sound in general. I KNOW it's a huge difference if my wife can even notice it!
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post #708 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitanFan View Post

You will need to program the following remote codes into your universal remote:

DC1 Trigger, Zone 1 ON - Custom Code=7E, Data Code=73
DC1 Trigger, Zone 1 OFF - Custom Code=7E, Data Code=74

DC2 Trigger, Zone 1 ON - Custom Code=7E, Data Code=3E
DC2 Trigger, Zone 1 OFF - Custom Code=7E, Data Code=3F

How exactly can these codes be programmed into a Harmony remote?

From other reading I've discovered that the Yamaha maintains a 12v level on its trigger outs while it is on. My amps need a pulse to turn them on and another pulse to turn them off. So I was planning to send an OFF signal after the Yamaha comes on (to simulate a pulse) and an ON signal just before switching off the Yamaha to create another pulse.
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post #709 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by The Natural View Post

Anyone have any issue with the receiver shutting off? My RX- V1800 shut off today after about 3hrs of use at the volume around -5. I'm guessing this is just due to overheating? Anyone else experience this? Should I take it back to Best Buy or purchase some fans to sit ontop of the receiver?

Probably overheating. How do you have it installed (plenty of ventilation?)? -5 with most speakers is going to be quite LOUD.

If it's convenient, get a cheap indoor/outdoor digital thermometer from WalMart or Target (they cost about $8) and set the outdoor probe on top of the receiver. I don't know where the thermal cutoff is on the 1800, but I've run mine "all day" at 110 degrees F with no problems. It's enclosed in a rack with a pair of fans pulling air out the back and it still gets that hot.
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post #710 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSync View Post

HDMI 1.3 allows the TV to communicate delays to the A/V receiver and supposedly correct lip sync automatically. Maybe this works (RX-V3800 implements auto lip-sync) but the whole process depends on the TV, and most TVs don't do auto lip-sync (yet).

I'm willing to bet that no implementation of auto lip-sync can delay the video, rather than the audio. I don't think they ever even considered this as necessary, but it's looking more and more likely that it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSync View Post

BTW, in absence of an auto lip-sync capable TV, Yamaha's manual lip-sync adjustment is totally brain dead: To adjust it, you need to go to a GUI which takes 5-10 seconds to appear, and replaces the video -- so there is no way to see the effect of changes until you get out of the GUI, which takes another 5-10 seconds. Who thought that up?

Completely agree, and all they needed to do was give us an option to turn off the GUI, because everything can be controlled from the front panel anyway.
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post #711 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 05:35 PM
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Dear All,
just got an 1800 and disappointed I can't run 7.1 (which I've already got setup) and the 2 front prensence speakers as well for dialogue lift. Thought I'd upgrade to the 3800 but that has the same limitation as well according to the manual. Is there a way around this anyone's found yet? I really want to use 9.1 particularly for dialogue lift as I have a large (120") screen and use electrostatics for the front 3 and surrounds. I don't want the cost of a new Z just to get 9.1.
Anybody found a way around this yet?
Thanks and sorry if this is a rehash.
Matthew O'Sullivan

Happiness is a big screen & a Newfoundland to watch movies with.
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post #712 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacksmyname View Post

This had me going a bit nuts for days. Go into the setup menu, and look at all entries under sound, stereo/surround, extended surround. I don't remember all of them, but go through the whole menu and you'll find them. The settings your looking for have two options: auto and last. They default to auto; set them to last. There's also one entry where you select which decoder you want to use; select PLIIx.
Now, to get sound from the rear surrounds, press the "movie" button on the remote (#8). You should now get sound from the rears. You can keep pressing that button to cycle through the different PLIIx CinemaDSP modes (adventure, sci-fi, etc.). As you do this, the receiver will display the different names.
This applies when the receiver's display shows DD, DD+, DTS, TrueHD soundtracks when in surround decode mode (button #10 on the remote).
If you're watching a tv broadcast that has a legacy 5.1 surroundtrack, the 3800 will display PLIIx, and give you full 7.1 when in surround decode mode (again, button #10).
Hope I've explained this clearly.

I can't seem to get this working myself. I have a 7.1 speaker config. If I set my source (DVD, SAT, etc) to 2-channel PCM I can get sound from the back speakers using PLIIx. However, if I set my source to Dolby Digital, I can't seem to get anything out of the back. When I hit "Sur Decode" my only option is Dolby Digital. When I toggle through the Movie options, I never get sound from the back. I understood there was a way to turn true 5.1 sources into 7.1. I clearly don't understand how to make that happen.

Any input is much appreciated.
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post #713 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by webmst View Post

Dear All,
just got an 1800 and disappointed I can't run 7.1 (which I've already got setup) and the 2 front prensence speakers as well for dialogue lift. Thought I'd upgrade to the 3800 but that has the same limitation as well according to the manual. Is there a way around this anyone's found yet?


There is no way around it, and no, not even with adding a external amp can it be done. You either need to buy a RX-Z9 or the new RX-Z11 if you want it.
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post #714 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by tatanka01 View Post

Probably overheating. How do you have it installed (plenty of ventilation?)? -5 with most speakers is going to be quite LOUD.

If it's convenient, get a cheap indoor/outdoor digital thermometer from WalMart or Target (they cost about $8) and set the outdoor probe on top of the receiver. I don't know where the thermal cutoff is on the 1800, but I've run mine "all day" at 110 degrees F with no problems. It's enclosed in a rack with a pair of fans pulling air out the back and it still gets that hot.

It sits on the bottom of my TV stand, there is plenty of ventilation above it since the stand is open. There is a 360 and PS3 above it. I did have it up pretty loud but what will happen when I move into a bigger place and really want to crank it up? I can only get 3hrs out of it? I guess I will have to purchase some power PC fans and sit it on top of it or something.
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post #715 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:05 PM
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I rented the Fantastic Four Blu-Ray with DTS-HD Master which looks great and sounds great. However, I noticed that the Yamaha display lights up 7.1 channels even though the GUI information on the signal says 5.1. If I switch to the alternate soundtrack, Spanish DD 5.1, the display lights 5.1 as it should.

Does anybody know if that Is that a glitch in the disc or the Yammy?

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post #716 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 08:47 PM
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Originally Posted by etzeppy View Post

I can't seem to get this working myself. I have a 7.1 speaker config. If I set my source (DVD, SAT, etc) to 2-channel PCM I can get sound from the back speakers using PLIIx. However, if I set my source to Dolby Digital, I can't seem to get anything out of the back. When I hit "Sur Decode" my only option is Dolby Digital. When I toggle through the Movie options, I never get sound from the back. I understood there was a way to turn true 5.1 sources into 7.1. I clearly don't understand how to make that happen.

Any input is much appreciated.

Read my post carefully and follow what I wrote. Should work for you.
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post #717 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 09:55 PM
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thanks that what I thought the answer was ~ pity but it's good value even so.
If anyone bright person thinks of a way around this don't hesitate to drop me a line.
Thanks,
Matthew O'Sullivan

Happiness is a big screen & a Newfoundland to watch movies with.
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post #718 of 8664 Old 12-27-2007, 10:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacksmyname View Post

Read my post carefully and follow what I wrote. Should work for you.

It was in Sound Menu->Audio Set->Extd Sur. I wish there was an easy way to turn that on and off but at least it works now. Thanks for the tips.
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post #719 of 8664 Old 12-28-2007, 02:40 AM
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Hi.

I have just got a 3800 for Xmas and have discovered a couple weird things i would like to know if they are normal or not.

First when i switch the unit on from standby i get a pop sound out of the left surround speaker ?

Second ( and this one will freak you out when it happens to you ) when i switch the unit on and off again quickly and wait about 15 to 20 seconds there is a crazy frequency sweep through all speakers ??? Dose anyone else get this ?


I am using the pre outs into an expensive 5 channel power amp and it worries me that it might damage my power amp ? Already i have a problem with its left surround channel emitting a static crackling sound i never had before. Could it be something the Yamaha has done ?
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post #720 of 8664 Old 12-28-2007, 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted by webmst View Post

Dear All,
just got an 1800 and disappointed I can't run 7.1 (which I've already got setup) and the 2 front prensence speakers as well for dialogue lift. Thought I'd upgrade to the 3800 but that has the same limitation as well according to the manual. Is there a way around this anyone's found yet? I really want to use 9.1 particularly for dialogue lift as I have a large (120") screen and use electrostatics for the front 3 and surrounds. I don't want the cost of a new Z just to get 9.1.
Anybody found a way around this yet?
Thanks and sorry if this is a rehash.
Matthew O'Sullivan

You have a 7 channel amp. You are maxed out at 7.1.
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