The "Official" VSX-94TXH Thread...:0) - Page 112 - AVS Forum
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post #3331 of 4953 Old 07-01-2008, 04:52 PM
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I hate to bring it up again, but what is your treble set at and what are your MCACC frequency setting. Loud volumes combined with high treble or EQ settings will cause the amps to clip(too litle power) and will fry tweeters the same as too much power will blow woofers

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post #3332 of 4953 Old 07-01-2008, 05:01 PM
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EQ settings in the MCACC- 5. Acoustic Cal EQ are:
63 HZ:___
125 HZ: +3.5
250 HZ: +0.5
1 khz: -4.5
2 khz: -1.5
4 khz: 0
8 khz: +3.5
16 khz: +6.0
TRIM: +3.5
And the treble is set to the Bypass mode, is this the info you need? Appreciate you help Legairre
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post #3333 of 4953 Old 07-01-2008, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post

EQ settings in the MCACC- 5. Acoustic Cal EQ are:
63 HZ:___
125 HZ: +3.5
250 HZ: +0.5
1 khz: -4.5
2 khz: -1.5
4 khz: 0
8 khz: +3.5
16 khz: +6.0
TRIM: +3.5
And the treble is set to the Bypass mode, is this the info you need? Appreciate you help Legairre

The one that would worry me is the +6@16kHz. Most speakers a capable of a high of 20kHz and adding 6dB at 16kHz is a good bit at such a high frequency.

Since the center and a front blew can you post the EQ settings for both speakers that blew and also the front that didn't blow.

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post #3334 of 4953 Old 07-01-2008, 06:18 PM
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The settings for the Center channel that blew are:
63 hz: ____
125 hz: +2.0
250 hz: -3.5
500 hz: -4.5
1 khz:-2.5
2 khz: 0
4 khz: -0.5
8 khz: +6.5
16 khz: +6.5
Trim: +2.0

The settings for the other front channel speaker are the same as the one I posted earlier.
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post #3335 of 4953 Old 07-01-2008, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post

The settings for the Center channel that blew are:
63 hz: ____
125 hz: +2.0
250 hz: -3.5
500 hz: -4.5
1 khz:-2.5
2 khz: 0
4 khz: -0.5
8 khz: +6.5
16 khz: +6.5
Trim: +2.0

The settings for the other front channel speaker are the same as the one I posted earlier.

Judging from the +6dB@16kHz for the fronts and +6.5@16kHz for the center I would bet that they blew at a pretty high volume. It takes an amp twice the power to handle a 3dB increase so at the amps limit +6dB would put a big strain on the amp at a high volume. Granted high frequencies don't require as much amp power as lows do a +6 dB increase is still a good bit. I wouldn't go more than +3.5 at the most @16kHz.

The only thing that will fry your tweeters (other than a short) is a lack of power at a high frequency and at a high volume. The waves would have started to clip and burn out the tweeter.

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post #3336 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 07:51 AM
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For you guys that run their Ipod though their 94,what sound setting seems to be the best or you like the most for iPod MP3s? I am running 7.1 system.

Thanks
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post #3337 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonH54 View Post

For you guys that run their Ipod though their 94,what sound setting seems to be the best or you like the most for iPod MP3s? I am running 7.1 system.

Thanks


I don't have IPod but you should use Sound Retriever mode on the receiver to restore the audio quality and dynamic range from MP3 or similar compression.
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post #3338 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 08:29 AM
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New 94TXH owner here ... planning on putting two speakers on my deck and using the second zone on this receiver. I want to keep my 7.1 main setup, so it seems like my only option is to use the Zone 2 RCA Preouts (or Zone 3 TOSLINK) output.

I'm looking for ideas on how to accomplish amplification for the deck speakers. I'm thinking something like this:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...TOKEN=13466368
Or one of those DIY Class-T Amplifier kits as sold on http://www.41hz.com

Anyone got other ideas or seen similar setups?

Also, to control the receiver from the deck I'll need some sort of IR extender?
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post #3339 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post

The settings for the Center channel that blew are:
63 hz: ____
125 hz: +2.0
250 hz: -3.5
500 hz: -4.5
1 khz:-2.5
2 khz: 0
4 khz: -0.5
8 khz: +6.5
16 khz: +6.5
Trim: +2.0

The settings for the other front channel speaker are the same as the one I posted earlier.

Sounds like your speaker's tweeters are damaged before you ran MCACC. There is virtually nothing comes out of your center speaker over 4KHz. I'd get those speakers replaced or fixed and re-run MCACC.
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post #3340 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

Sounds like your speaker's tweeters are damaged before you ran MCACC. There is virtually nothing comes out of your center speaker over 4KHz. I'd get those speakers replaced or fixed and re-run MCACC.

The Dolby Digital and DTS specs for SD and BD playback have both always stated a full range (20Hz-20kHz) signal is supported in all channels not just the mains. If a movie is encoded with higher than 4kHz in the center his center will receiver it. Also he may be playing music or other sources in ext.stereo or one of the other DSP modes which matrix the signal to all speakers. Saying that his center will never see a signal over 4kHz is not a true statement. If a movie or music is encoded over 4kHz his center will receiver it.

There are plenty of articles that detail that DD, DTS, TrueHD, DTS HD MA and PCM all support a full range 20Hz -20kHz signal in all channels except the sub .1 channel.
http://www.hometheatermag.com/advice...erts/507ss101/
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD.html
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...y_digital.html
http://www.oz.net/~blam1/LaserDisc/dts_technology.htm

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post #3341 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121 View Post

I don't have IPod but you should use Sound Retriever mode on the receiver to restore the audio quality and dynamic range from MP3 or similar compression.

Thanks, I didn't even know there was such an option,I guess I need to get the Manual out.

Edit: I know I am just over looking it but where in the Manual does it tell you about Sound Retriever Mode?

Thanks
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post #3342 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Saying that his center will never see a signal over 4kHz is not a true statement. If a movie or music is encoded over 4kHz his center will receiver it.

You misundertood my post entirely. What I try to say is that based on his center channel cal graph, his receiver has to raise a whopping 7 db from 4KHz to 8KHz and beyond. That means his center speaker isn't putting out much above 4KHz during MCACC process.
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post #3343 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 11:40 AM
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My apologies for misunderstanding your post.

Since MCACC is and EQ it will automatically raise his systems volume +6 dB 8kHz and lower it by 0.5 at 4kHz. By the very nature of and EQ it's a preset dB level to lower or raise the dB at certain frequencies to smooth out response. At 8 and 16kHz his system will be up +6dB at those frequencies, becasue MCACC detected a large enough dip in the response due to his room or speakers. No matter what happens when an 8 or 16kHz frequency is acheived the volume will be raised by +6dB, which is a lot and could easily fry a tweeter since the amp could be forced into clipping at loud volumes. A+6dB increase at those frequencies(at high volumes) could easily cause his speakers ohms to dip well below their rated 8ohm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxbat121
Sounds like your speaker's tweeters are damaged before you ran MCACC.

Not very likely. If you look at the frequency MCACC had applied and compared that to his centers and fronts frequency response, you'll see that his center and fronts are both a 2 1/2 way speaker. The bass driver covers up to 400Hz(center) and 150Hz(fronts), the midrange goes up to 4KHz and the tweeter goes as high as 20kHz on both the fronts and center. If his tweeters were already blown before running MCACC then MCACC would have tried to add the max of +12 dB above 4kHz(where his tweeters range lies). For his fronts MCACC added +3.5@8kHz and +6@16kHz while for the center MCACC added +6.5@8kHz and +6.5@16kHz. His tweeters were clearly working when MCACC was run and made the EQ settings. With that said his tweeters more than likely blew due to the +6.5dB increase at those frequencies at high volumes, also noting that the B&W CM4 have always been known to dip into the 4ohm range at high frequencies.

Its pretty clear the tweeters worked when MCACC was run and the tweeters blew, due to the amps clipping due to the +6.5dB increase. Combine a +6.5 increase at high frequencies with high volume and low ohms and you a perfect formula for blowing tweeters.

fronts
63 HZ:___
125 HZ: +3.5
250 HZ: +0.5
1 khz: -4.5
2 khz: -1.5
4 khz: 0
8 khz: +3.5
16 khz: +6.0
TRIM: +3.5

center
63 hz: ____
125 hz: +2.0
250 hz: -3.5
500 hz: -4.5
1 khz:-2.5
2 khz: 0
4 khz: -0.5
8 khz: +6.5
16 khz: +6.5
Trim: +2.0

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post #3344 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 12:39 PM
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Most pros insist that it is appropriate to EQ frequency peaks, but it is risky to boost frequency nulls. I'm a little surprised that Pioneer doesn't set a more moderate maximum level of frequency boost. +6.5dB is significant, plus the effect of an overall +2dB trim. I remember seeing as high as a +6dB boost in a particular frequency band with my 94TXH, but I wasn't too concerned because no other bands had anywhere near that level of boost. But, +6.5dB in two adjacent bands would concern me.

The good news is that Pioneer does allow virtually unlimited adjustments to MCACC. If you had any consumer level Audyssey system, you'd be stuck with the auto EQ results, or no EQ at all.
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post #3345 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 01:08 PM
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So, if we run MCACC, then it automatically puts a couple of boosts that we are uncomfortable with, then we can manually back these Freq down, say from +6bB to +3bB?

Is this how it works?
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post #3346 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 01:10 PM
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Yes, you can back down or up any of the EQ parameters MCACC set that you're not happy with.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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post #3347 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bubbawilly View Post

Most pros insist that it is appropriate to EQ frequency peaks, but it is risky to boost frequency nulls. I'm a little surprised that Pioneer doesn't set a more moderate maximum level of frequency boost. +6.5dB is significant, plus the effect of an overall +2dB trim. I remember seeing as high as a +6dB boost in a particular frequency band with my 94TXH, but I wasn't too concerned because no other bands had anywhere near that level of boost. But, +6.5dB in two adjacent bands would concern me.

The good news is that Pioneer does allow virtually unlimited adjustments to MCACC. If you had any consumer level Audyssey system, you'd be stuck with the auto EQ results, or no EQ at all.

I know what you mean. I've manually EQ-ed my subs with a BFD and the goal is to bring down the peeks in order to flatten the response not raise the nulls. Raising the nulls means increasing the power and every +3dB in SPL requires a doubling of the power.

Hey did I see a pm from you that you bought an SC-09TX? If so holy crap Batman that's one heck of a receiver.

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post #3348 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 01:43 PM
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Yes, it is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I can't get out of town this long weekend, so I guess I'll have to put some time in with the new gear. What a shame.
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post #3349 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 01:48 PM
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If you'd really like to get out of town, feel free to have it sent to my house. I know it'll be a burden on me, but I'd be willing to break it in for you.

"What do you mean it's too loud? My ears aren't even bleeding yet!"

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post #3350 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legairre View Post

Judging from the +6dB@16kHz for the fronts and +6.5@16kHz for the center I would bet that they blew at a pretty high volume. It takes an amp twice the power to handle a 3dB increase so at the amps limit +6dB would put a big strain on the amp at a high volume. Granted high frequencies don't require as much amp power as lows do a +6 dB increase is still a good bit. I wouldn't go more than +3.5 at the most @16kHz.

The only thing that will fry your tweeters (other than a short) is a lack of power at a high frequency and at a high volume. The waves would have started to clip and burn out the tweeter.

I strongly believe what blew my tweeters was a volume of -5 at the time playing a bluray movie. That won't happen again.
Legairre, currently I have my lows connected to the Rotel 1075 amp and the highs to the 94 TXH as suggested by my dealer. Would you guys do anything differently to get better sound? Thanks.

l
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post #3351 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 03:24 PM
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What you are doing is known as passive bi-amping. I do the same thing with my Rotel RMB-1095(200x5 wpc) except I use 2 channels for my L/R highs, 2 channels for my L/R lows and 1 channel for my center.

Your RMB-1075 is 120x5 wpc, so I would leave things as they are and use the 1075 for the lows and the 94 for the highs. This will take a huge load off the 94 and leave a LOT more power for the high and lows. With the 94 only handling the highs (provided your speakers are set to small) and the 1075 handling the lows you should be fine at high volumes.

BTW I would still bring down the +6.5dB on the center and mains to +3.

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post #3352 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 03:35 PM
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I will definitely follow your advice lowering the 8 and 16 khz frequencies to +3 db. Again, thanks for the assistance. Luckily my speakers are still under warranty until August.
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post #3353 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 05:10 PM
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I can not get an HDMI signal to pass through the Pioneer and into my TV. I have a Samsung HLR-6178.

The Samsung can only accept a 1080i signal vial HDMI. I am trying to mess the the video parameters to see if this is were the problem lies. I actually think the TV just cant link up to the Pioneer, but I am trying to trouble shoot.

When I go into the video parameters on the receiver under conversion, I am only able to do 1 of 2 things. Turn it on or off. It will not allow me to scroll down at that point and select a resolution. Why is this? I want to set the ouput on the Pioneer to 1080i but I cant get it to do anything.

When I hit the "v paramter" button on the remote, it shows "video conversion" at that point. All I can do from there is hit the sideways arrow keys to turn it on or off, i can not hit the up or down arrows and go anywhere else.

is this the way it is supposed to work? Reading the manual on page72it shows I should be able to do more.

It does say " if a setting doesnt appear in the video parameter menu, it is unavailable due to the current source, setting and status of the receiver."

What does this mean? Current source is a direct tv hr20 hd receiver.
Status of the receiver????

i am about done messing withthis and I am not happy. i want to have HDMI used and nothing else. Dont want the damn component cables running to the tv, and I have to use both HDMI and components on the HD vd player as HDMI is the only way to get certain auido signals, yet since I get no video, I must run component also.

sigh
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post #3354 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hery19 View Post

I will definitely follow your advice lowering the 8 and 16 khz frequencies to +3 db. Again, thanks for the assistance. Luckily my speakers are still under warranty until August.

Glad to help. BTW did you already have the 1075 or did you purchase it after the tweeters blew?

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post #3355 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 05:39 PM
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I already had the 1075 which I bought with the intentions of upgrading to separates when I replaced my receiver, RSX-1055 but instead I replaced it with the 94TXH since Rotel's 1069 didn't have everything I was looking for and my dealer allowed me to take 94 brand new home to test and if I liked it, keep it at a very reasonable price that I just couldn't pass up. I also was looking into the NAD T-175 but there is no local dealer and the price I was quoted over the phone by nearby dealers was not as good. I think I made a good choice with the 94 even though it blew up two of my speakers, but that was more operator error than anything else.
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post #3356 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post

I can not get an HDMI signal to pass through the Pioneer and into my TV. I have a Samsung HLR-6178.

The Samsung can only accept a 1080i signal vial HDMI. I am trying to mess the the video parameters to see if this is were the problem lies. I actually think the TV just cant link up to the Pioneer, but I am trying to trouble shoot.

When I go into the video parameters on the receiver under conversion, I am only able to do 1 of 2 things. Turn it on or off. It will not allow me to scroll down at that point and select a resolution. Why is this? I want to set the ouput on the Pioneer to 1080i but I cant get it to do anything.

When I hit the "v paramter" button on the remote, it shows "video conversion" at that point. All I can do from there is hit the sideways arrow keys to turn it on or off, i can not hit the up or down arrows and go anywhere else.

is this the way it is supposed to work? Reading the manual on page72it shows I should be able to do more.

It does say " if a setting doesnt appear in the video parameter menu, it is unavailable due to the current source, setting and status of the receiver."

What does this mean? Current source is a direct tv hr20 hd receiver.
Status of the receiver????

i am about done messing withthis and I am not happy. i want to have HDMI used and nothing else. Dont want the damn component cables running to the tv, and I have to use both HDMI and components on the HD vd player as HDMI is the only way to get certain auido signals, yet since I get no video, I must run component also.

sigh

Hook up a single RCA cable to the "Monitor Out" on the back of the 94 and make sure the TV is on the correct input. That way you'll be able to get the setup menu to display. Then we can help you get your HDMI working. Monitor Out displays the setup menu at all times no matter what so this will at least get us started.


Also the 94 only provides a straight pass through for HDMI. Upconversion, changing resolutions, etc... are for composite, components, s-video inputs only. The 94 will not allow you to change the V.Parameters for HDMI. It only allows a straight pass through of HDMI to keep the signal as pure as possible. Allowing you to change V.Parameter would mean it's not a straight pass though.

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post #3357 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoopsrgreat View Post

I can not get an HDMI signal to pass through the Pioneer and into my TV. I have a Samsung HLR-6178.

My experience is that 92/94 HDMI out does not negotiate EDID info properly. It will only do so one time at power up. The problem is most TVs need quite a few seconds before it can respond to HDMI handshake request. By that time, the receiver already give up. I now have to manually power on my TV and wait for 10 seconds to power on my 92. Otherwise, I will not get AVR to accept 1080p signals from my BD player or Xbox 360. Or I can power cycle the AVR again. It's a pain because I use a Harmony remote to control every thing and it won't allow me to delay the power up of AVR.
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post #3358 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 08:14 PM
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Hook up a single RCA cable to the "Monitor Out" on the back of the 94 and make sure the TV is on the correct input. That way you'll be able to get the setup menu to display. Then we can help you get your HDMI working. Monitor Out displays the setup menu at all times no matter what so this will at least get us started.


I will do this tomorrow and see if anyone is on that can help me figure this out.





Also the 94 only provides a straight pass through for HDMI. Upconversion, changing resolutions, etc... are for composite, components, s-video inputs only. The 94 will not allow you to change the V.Parameters for HDMI. It only allows a straight pass through of HDMI to keep the signal as pure as possible. Allowing you to change V.Parameter would mean it's not a straight pass though.




Well that pretty much makes me think it is in the TV nd I wont be able to fix it. Since it should just pass my signal from my Direct tv receiver straight on through to the TV. That signal is 1080i, which my set should have no problems handling.

The TV has zip problems with any HDMI signal I have ever used if I hook it up straight to the TV, but that defeats part of the reason I have a receiver.
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post #3359 of 4953 Old 07-02-2008, 09:48 PM
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Hoops, a good bit of people have had problems getting HDMI to work. Once they connected the RCA cable to monitor out we've been able to help them with the settings. We'll need to set HDMI control set to off and configure the correct HDMI input. Most of us had no HDMI probelms while others needed to go the RCA cable route first, then make the right setting changes.

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post #3360 of 4953 Old 07-03-2008, 06:33 AM
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Hoops, and anyone else having HDMI problems, here is what I have found on a recent installation of a VSX-94. The customer already had in place a PS3, Samsung BD/HD player, Samsung DirecTV receiver, and a Samsung DLP bought elsewhere. I don't know the models of the Samsung gear. For background info, the TV and sat receiver were on the entire time I was setting up the receiver and speaker system.

Everything connected HDMI through the 94 to the TV. Upon turning on the 94, PS3, and BD/HD player, the only signal I could get to display on the TV was from the sat receiver. Like Hoops, the 94 OSD did not display on the TV (I got the Samsung variation of Not Supported on its screen). The 94 flashed Not Supported on its front panel for the PS3 and BD/HD player.

Leaving everything powered up, I disconnected the PS3 and BD/HD player from the 94 and connected them to the TV. I changed the settings in the PS3 and BD/HD player to output 1080i instead of 1080p. I also turned off all Samsung HDMI controls in the TV and BD/HD player. By navigating the 94 on the front panel display, I disabled its HDMI control as well.

Reconnected everything through the 94 again, and achieved picture passthrough from all sources. The OSD from the 94 was also now passed to the TV. I then assigned the HDMI inputs 1-3 to TV/SAT, DVD, and BD so the customers had easy access to their devices on the 94's remote.

I then went back into the settings of the PS3 and BD/HD player and reset them to 1080p output. Everything worked great through the 94, and the 94 still passed its OSD to the TV.

While showing the customers how to run the system, many devices were turned on and off in random sequence, and inputs were changed back and forth, without any drops in signal either through the 94 or between the 94 and the TV. I have yet to have a call from the customers with any HDMI issues since leaving their house that day almost three weeks ago (knock on wood).

I'm not sure if this is a permanent solution to those who have had issues with HDMI and Pioneer Elite receivers, but it was the solution in this situation.

I hope this information can help with anyone running into these kinds of headaches.

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TDI

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