DTS-HD MA vs HR - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 15 Old 08-30-2007, 08:43 AM - Thread Starter
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DTS's web page is not clear on one point.

If a given device claims DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, does that imply DTS-HD High Resolution decoding? It would seem to apply that due to their core + extension model, but I dislike making assumptions.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #2 of 15 Old 08-30-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

DTS's web page is not clear on one point.

If a given device claims DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, does that imply DTS-HD High Resolution decoding? It would seem to apply that due to their core + extension model, but I dislike making assumptions.


MICHAEL..
The end decoder capability for DTS-MA is dependent upon the selected audio DSP and its headroom capacity.. To process/decode DTS-MA, @ its highest native input specs provided the audio source material is of high enough quality..
The DSP decoder must have enough internal resources including calculation engine & memory.
Unfortunately..
All of the AVRs with HDMI 1.3 level of compliance to date..
That include on-board HD audio codecs selling for <$1499 suffer from these issues..
This is why certain brands such as Denon, Pioneer/Elite, Onkyo, Yamaha are using 2 or 3 separate audio DSP processors.
One should keep in mind that the audio DSP circuit needs the capacity not only to decode the digital audio stream..
Plus..
It needs to run its bass manager, room EQ and other post-processing modes..

Think about much like the SD audio decoding capabilities of certain AVRs 1 or 2 years back, certain digital audio streams might have been encoded @ 96kHz..
But the DSP only had enough resources & bandwidth to process @ 48kHz..
Thus the stream is downsampled to 48kHz..
To the listener..
Often there is no indication of this downsampling step..

Going foward..
Once the studios/content providers start to supply hi-res DTS-MA encoded (w/extension) source material then the silicon providers such as TI, Cirrus Logic. Freescale (Motorola), Analog Devices will significantly up the power of their DSPs by going to higher clock rates, more memory in a single, thinner micron package. But this will not start to show up into AVRs until next year..

Just my $.02 worth..
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post #3 of 15 Old 08-30-2007, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

DTS's web page is not clear on one point.

If a given device claims DTS-HD Master Audio decoding, does that imply DTS-HD High Resolution decoding? It would seem to apply that due to their core + extension model, but I dislike making assumptions.

Don't know about you, but I can't decipher MCode's post.

To actually answer your question:

No, DTS-HD HR appears to be a different extension from DTS-HD MA. Thus a DTS-HD MA stream does not contain DTS-HD HR data.
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post #4 of 15 Old 08-30-2007, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Don't know about you, but I can't decipher MCode's post.

To actually answer your question:

No, DTS-HD HR appears to be a different extension from DTS-HD MA. Thus a DTS-HD MA stream does not contain DTS-HD HR data.

LOL And what's with the not-quite-an-ellipsis (two dots instead of three) at the end of almost every line? Is the reader supposed to use these as a cue to stop and ponder at these points?
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post #5 of 15 Old 08-31-2007, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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DTS's web page is definitey short on these details. Given how hard it is for consumers to keep up with this stuff, they should be doing a better job.

Rather than whining, I will send them a letter asking for clarification and suggesting they clarify the situation on their web page.

Thanks, and happy Labor day weekend

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #6 of 15 Old 08-31-2007, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

DTS's web page is definitey short on these details. Given how hard it is for consumers to keep up with this stuff, they should be doing a better job.

Rather than whining, I will send them a letter asking for clarification and suggesting they clarify the situation on their web page.

Thanks, and happy Labor day weekend

Good luck with that. Some of those web pages are very old and there have been many people sending them complaints about the info. No changes.

If you notice, most companies prefer the general public to be confused. That way they can sell junk at top prices with just some marketing fluff. Its funny that even when it would be to a company's advantage for consumers to know more, they are afraid to do it.
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post #7 of 15 Old 08-31-2007, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I try not to be cynical, Jay...

But sometimes I wonder if AV manufacturer marketing groups believe a little FUD* is healthy for them.

* Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #8 of 15 Old 09-01-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samsurd2 View Post

LOL And what's with the not-quite-an-ellipsis (two dots instead of three) at the end of almost every line? Is the reader supposed to use these as a cue to stop and ponder at these points?

Can you say.........Trees from the Forest? I used extra dots to make up for MCodes

MCode,
With the Onkyo running 3 DSP’s, do you see a bottle neck still or will there be enough processing power for the processing you mentioned above?
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post #9 of 15 Old 09-01-2007, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

I try not to be cynical, Jay...

But sometimes I wonder if AV manufacturer marketing groups believe a little FUD* is healthy for them.

* Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt

I smell agenda?
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post #10 of 15 Old 09-01-2007, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B&W700guy View Post

Can you say.........Trees from the Forest? I used extra dots to make up for MCodes

MCode,
With the Onkyo running 3 DSP’s, do you see a bottle neck still or will there be enough processing power for the processing you mentioned above?

The Onkyo models that use the multiple DSPs should have enough of DSP power..
As they will use 1 DSP for the HD processing, 1 DSP for the bass manager and 1 DSP for the post-processing & room EQ..
The actual requirements are driven by the encoded source material..
As 192kHz vs 96kHz requires twice the processing/bandwidth..
If...
The native digital audio stream exceeds the DSP's capabilities then it will keep down-sampling internally until it can handle the stream..
192kHz > 96kHz >48kHz..
Also as the # of channels increases from 5.1 > 7.1 this places increased emphasis upon the DSP..

Another factor is that while moving forward..
The internal DSP HD audio code will become more refined and reduced significantly in size as well.. By Fall 2008, on-board HD decoding will be common-place within AVRs selling for $499..

Just my $.02 worth..
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post #11 of 15 Old 03-04-2008, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay_Davis View Post

Don't know about you, but I can't decipher MCode's post.

To actually answer your question:

No, DTS-HD HR appears to be a different extension from DTS-HD MA. Thus a DTS-HD MA stream does not contain DTS-HD HR data.

How many DTS HR discs vs DTS MA BD discs are there (since both DTS codecs are not on the same disc)??

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #12 of 15 Old 03-27-2013, 03:18 PM
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bumping .. nobody really answered the DTS MA vs. DTS HR question. rolleyes.gif


edit:
just found out that DTS-HD HIGH RESOLUTION AUDIO (DTS-HD HR) is not really HD tongue.gif

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post #13 of 15 Old 03-27-2013, 05:25 PM
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DTS-HD HR is lossy. DTS-HD MA is lossless. In comprison to Dolby:

DTS-HD HR = Dolby Digital Plus
DTS-HD MA = Dobly True HD.

Who cares if your receiver can decode DTS-HD HR or not (in most cases, they can). I have encountered only 1 DTS-HD HR encoded disc since the beginin of the BD.
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post #14 of 15 Old 03-27-2013, 06:18 PM
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In practice there is very little or no difference. DTS-HD HR has max. bitrate of 6 Mbps, which far exceeds the typical MA bitrates (2-4 Mbps) for a 5.1 24/48 track (a 7.1 24/48 MA track approches 6 Mbps). Does that make sense?

It's all explained first hand on dts' website and in the dts HD audio whitepaper if you look for it.

Take a real example, House of Flying Daggers BD with 5.1 24/48:

Fr and Aus ver. dts-HD HR 2046 kbps
TW ver. dts-HD MA 2047 kbps

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #15 of 15 Old 10-11-2013, 08:10 AM
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Actually, they are quite clear on one of the aspects of it.....

DTS HD MA uses one extension - which gives you LOSSLESS 96k....

DTS HD HR uses a different extension to give you FIXED BIT RATE encoding "up to 7.1 96k"

If you read "between the lines" you will see that HR is intended for use "where bandwidth or space is limited" and NOWHERE claims to be lossless.
In other words, HR is a LOSSY format intended to bridge the gap between HD MA and plain old DTS in situations where you don't have enough space for HD MA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

DTS's web page is definitey short on these details. Given how hard it is for consumers to keep up with this stuff, they should be doing a better job.


Rather than whining, I will send them a letter asking for clarification and suggesting they clarify the situation on their web page.


Thanks, and happy Labor day weekend

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