Pioneer worth it... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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The prices of Pioneer electronics is really irritating me. I understand that the Pioneer components are all really nice and solid, but the prices; c'mon people, think of the children ;) ! Looking at Onkyo's TX-DS989 (http://www.onkyousa.com/show_feature...ers&m=TX-DS989) and Pioneer's Elite VSX-49TX (http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pi...,21018,00.html) I notice very few differences. In fact, the Onkyo is better in some respects, while the Pioneer is better in other respects (therefore, in a sense, making the two receivers equal). Especially when the Onkyo is upgraded with the $50 upgrade kit (http://sales.onkyousa.com/shop_onkyo/), the differences seem to be hardly there. The Onkyo is priced at $3200, while the Pioneer is at $4200. I don't see enough differences to justify the $1000 price difference. Has anybody done a comparison of these two receivers and did you find a $1000 difference in the sound? I am not saying Pioneer doesn't make fine electronics, but I do think that their pricing is a little off ;) . Thanks!

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post #2 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 03:50 PM
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You have to admit that the Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration Circuit (MCACC), a built-in sound-level meter, is a very kewl feature.

And Pioneer claims to be first with THX Ultra 2 processing, although I'm sure there's not much software to make it worthwhile.

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post #3 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 05:18 PM
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Why not consider the Pioneer 47TX at $3500.00.


However, in the end, the sound is what really counts. Any reviews of this beast?
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post #4 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 05:32 PM
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You have to admit that the Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration Circuit (MCACC), a built-in sound-level meter, is a very kewl feature.
It's even more kewl that that. MCACC includes a 9-band parametric equalizer for each channel. It does automatic room and speaker correction kinda like a poor-man's Tact. The cheaper one (like the Onkyo) does the calibration and equalization automatically. The more expensive one adds another Sharc and has the ability to manually tweak the settings to get the sound you want. Now if they would just get the dang thing out the door so we could all give it a listen. :)

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post #5 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, but are these few differences worth $1000. I do realize that it is what you hear and not what the specs are but from looking, reviewing, and studying both I can't see a $1000 difference. That is also why I asked if anybody could take a listen to both (in the same setup of course) and see if they could hear a $1000 difference. I was also trying to tie this in with all of Pioneer's components; some of them seeming over priced more than others.

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post #6 of 109 Old 11-03-2001, 09:45 PM
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Yes, but are these few differences worth $1000
Well, that remains to be seen. The Pios aren't out yet so nobody has given them the listen test. FWIW the 47 is only $300 more than the Onkyo, not $1000, and includes most of the features of the 49. IF it works as advertised, I'd gladly pay good money for the room correction. That's an important feature to me. To put the price in perspective, 7+1 channels of audiophile-quality eq. in a separate box would probably cost more than any of the receivers we've been discussing. Besides, who pays retail?:)

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post #7 of 109 Old 11-04-2001, 07:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prosumer.tv
You have to admit that the Multi-Channel Acoustic Calibration Circuit (MCACC), a built-in sound-level meter, is a very kewl feature.

And Pioneer claims to be first with THX Ultra 2 processing, although I'm sure there's not much software to make it worthwhile.
I might be mistaken here, but isn't THX Ultra-2 a set of performance specifications / criteria?

Is it possible you are confusing Ultra-2 certification with THX-EX surround encoding / decoding?

SPL meters for auto-calibration have been around for a while, so while "kewl" [sic] it's not exactly a new feature to the market.

Regards,

Contributing Editor & Surround Music Reviewer Widescreen Review
Opinions are mine, not the publication I write for.
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post #8 of 109 Old 11-04-2001, 09:05 AM
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Any indication that Pioneer will put out an Elite receiver with DPL-II that is comparable to the Marantz SR 6200/7200, NAD T-761 and Yamaha 1200/2200??? I would be very interested to see what they have, particularly in the $900.00 to $1450.00 CAD price range ($575.00 to $925.00 USD).

Ignoring DPL II for the moment, what current Pioneer Elite receivers would compare to the above models ??
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post #9 of 109 Old 11-04-2001, 05:03 PM
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I am seriously considering the 49TX as my new receiver. The list price of 4200 is likely to be around 3000 in the real world. The speaker calibration seems to be very useful and I think this is the most updated receiver available. I just hope it also sounds great and this is my big question. Does anybody know when this baby will be available in major retailers in US? Did anybody actually listened to it?

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post #10 of 109 Old 11-04-2001, 10:08 PM
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See http://pub7.ezboard.com/faussiedvdan...picID=42.topic

/eric
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post #11 of 109 Old 11-05-2001, 04:22 PM
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I just bought my 49TX, to be delivered in two weeks. I was reading the specs and it mentions "Master VR TRIM" as a feature. Does anybody know what the hell is this?
Many thanks for any info.

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post #12 of 109 Old 11-05-2001, 06:21 PM
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Slimoli,

I see you didnt waste any time .... I am also ready to tap this as being my new receiver, but I wanted to hold out for some additional info, namely items like this room calibration system, and how it would pertain to a 5.1 setup as opposed to a 7.1.

Master VR trim? You got me ...Pioneer doesnt have their PDF manual listed where we could look them up. Your guess is as good as mine.

Do let us know your impressions on this monster!! What part of the country do you live in? how close to list did you pay?

J 20:21 11/05
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post #13 of 109 Old 11-05-2001, 07:13 PM
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Cool, slimoli! You of course realize, as an early adopter, you're on the hook now. We're going to be bugging you for a review and a fully rundown on every tiny little feature. :p

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post #14 of 109 Old 11-05-2001, 07:49 PM
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I bought it from Soundadvice,the largest retailer in Florida. Their price is 3500.00 but I paid 3000 using a 500.00 discount coupon I received from them in the mail. The coupon could be used on any audio gear costing 3500 or more. As you can guess I live in Florida. They promised to me to deliver it no later than November 19. I know there are some people offering it in the net for a bit less money,but I'd rather buy from a reputable retailer.
The return policy,no questions asked, of Soundadvice is 60 days. This is important because I bought something I have never seen. If I don't like it, my second choice will be the Marantz 9200.
In two weeks I can give you guys some more info although I am not a professional reviewer. I also bought the new Sony NV900 DVD/SACD player that will be delivered with the Pio. I have to say I never liked the sound of any Pioneer but this is a different animal (I hope!).

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post #15 of 109 Old 11-06-2001, 02:37 PM
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Since neither offer Flexible bass management I won't be buying either of these. When will manufacturers get a clue?

Meanwhile I do like the features minus that one for the new Pioneer Elite. I've seen in local for $3600.
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post #16 of 109 Old 11-06-2001, 03:56 PM
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Shane, Where in the thinly detailed press release did you read anything about bass management on this unit? The only items I can read about on this receiver, are the same old tired PR that gets passed around.

I have checked into and auditioned; B&K 307,Denon's 5800 and Yamaha's RX-V1. While I thought B&K sounded slightly best, I did not care for its video switching, its remote or its looks. Denon's sound was OK, only OK and its display being white and small was hard on the my eyes. Its remote also wasnt anything to sing about either. Yamaha was the one with the bass issues IMO, but it did seem to have the most headroom, a better display, too heavy on the DSP modes and again, like the other two, a bad remote. All three of the these units are getting old now, and not competitive feature-wise for the price.

When and if I can get an audition on the '49, I will do this (comparisons/auditions) all over again.

Is Pioneer worth it? Let's just say if they pull this off, and put out a real gem here, then we'll all hear about it. If they dont, they'll be in for a major setback. Yes, I'd pay it, but I'll weigh all of the above items, but wouldnt exclude a unit on just one.
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post #17 of 109 Old 11-06-2001, 06:05 PM
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My understanding is that the Sony 900 does the bass management doesn't it? The specs say it does multi-channel management but it is not clear if it works only for the digital out. Are you sure it doesn't do for the analog out?

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post #18 of 109 Old 11-06-2001, 10:12 PM
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Since neither offer Flexible bass management
That may be a hasty assumption. The Pioneer offers "All Channel 96kHz/24Bit A/D Conversion" on its 7.1 analog inputs as well as "All Channel Burr Brown 192kHz/24-Bit DAC." That means, if you want, you can use the full processing power, including bass management and room correction, on multichannel music -- something very few receivers or even high-end processors offer. The old Pioneers had selectable crossover points of (I think) 80, 100 and 120. We can always hope they saw fit to include some lower crossover frequencies on this one for people with full-range speakers. Adding 40 and 60 would be sweet.

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post #19 of 109 Old 11-07-2001, 03:33 PM
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If the bass management is flexible below 80 then I consider it flexible otherwise its a waste to me. It's possible they see the light but thats a stretch based on every other past incarnation of a Pioneer product.
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post #20 of 109 Old 11-07-2001, 07:21 PM
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It's even more kewl that that. MCACC includes a 9-band parametric equalizer for each channel. It does automatic room and speaker correction kinda like a poor-man's Tact. The cheaper one (like the Onkyo) does the calibration and equalization automatically. The more expensive one adds another Sharc and has the ability to manually tweak the settings to get the sound you want. Now if they would just get the dang thing out the door so we could all give it a listen.
Catapult: the equalizer of 49 and 47 is graphic not parametric. 9- bnads means 63,125,250,500,1K,2K,4K,8K,16KHz.
You pay extra 1000USD at 49 for high class BB chip PCM1704 ( BB PCM1738 fo 47). Other differences include thicker copper cover in 49, more video,optical and coaxial input, but this differences are not so important like different chip that make better sound quality.

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post #21 of 109 Old 11-07-2001, 07:57 PM
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the equalizer of 49 and 47 is graphic not parametric. 9- bnads means 63,125,250,500,1K,2K,4K,8K,16KHz
Rats, that's terrible news. Octave band equalization is nearly worthless. The search for the "perfect" receiver continues. :(

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post #22 of 109 Old 11-07-2001, 10:08 PM
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Hello all, don't forget that the 49 has a color decoder built in to take your composite and convert it to component, your SVHS and convert it to component. I've seen a similar stand alone device sell for almot $1000 !! and this is a built in feature on the 49.
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post #23 of 109 Old 11-08-2001, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jblpro

Catapult: the equalizer of 49 and 47 is graphic not parametric. 9- bnads means 63,125,250,500,1K,2K,4K,8K,16KHz.
You pay extra 1000USD at 49 for high class BB chip PCM1704 ( BB PCM1738 fo 47). Other differences include thicker copper cover in 49, more video,optical and coaxial input, but this differences are not so important like different chip that make better sound quality.
jblpro, Where did you read this info? I cant find anything on whether the EQ here is graphic or parametric. Why would they bother with all those features, only to ruin it with a graphic EQ?
Really, where did you read this?

Thicker copper cover? What is this chip you're referring to?

J
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post #24 of 109 Old 11-08-2001, 09:24 PM
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jimmer:I read this info from original DM of PIONEER JAPAN.The 4- paged DM has a lots of color photos to introduce the magnificent gear in details. When you compare the thickness of cover of 49 nd 47 from rear panel, you will find that 49 is thicker in bilateral and buttom cover. I like the sound of BB D/A chip for a long time.

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post #25 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 06:37 AM
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jblpro,

Since I cant read Japanese, and Altavista's translation is dubious at best; I continue to doubt the equalizer issue.

Then last evening I received a call from my local dealer, who just got them in....he was reading from the manual about the acoustic calibration features, and YES- IT IS A PARAMETRIC EQUALIZER.
All channels including LFE.

Later today, I will get to hear and see this thing in action.

J
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post #26 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 08:28 AM
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YES- IT IS A PARAMETRIC EQUALIZER.
Wahoooooooo!!!!!

jimmer, check the bass management if you can. Some XO frequencies below 80 would be most welcome.

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post #27 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 09:56 AM
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Yap,

As it would be a nice replacement for a BFD...

Hugo

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post #28 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 10:07 AM
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According to the manual that came with the VSX-49TX I picked up yesterday ($2600 at www.soundpros.com in San Diego), the sub crossover frequencies are 50, 80, 100, 150 & 200 Hz. Also part of the Ultra2 spec allows turning on "Boundary Gain Compensation" (TM) with an Ultra2 certified sub to reduce excessive bass effect due to the structure of the room. There is also a Bass Peak Level setting that prevents the sub from distorting (disabled for Ultra2 subs since it's built in).

Unfortunately for some of you, though the manual Features section description says that the MCACC will "...establish the parameters of the sound..." and "The MCACC system adjusts the parameters...", it looks like the equalizer is not parametric, since the "parameters" are the relative gain at 63, 125, 250, 500, 1k, 2k, 4k, 8k & 16k Hz, your normal 9-band equalizer (not available for sub channel).

BTW I hooked it up to my old Bose speakers and it sounds real sweet after the MCACC Auto Surround Sound Setup - spacious, airy, crisp, nice localization. It's as if the walls went away and I was at an outdoor concert. Hooking up the Klipsch Rx7s now - can't imagine how much better that will be.
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post #29 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 12:43 PM
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We've kinda wandered off the original topic of price and value. I just looked at the soundpros page and found the following street prices. None of them seems particularly unreasonable to me, especially considering what you would have to pay for separates with equal quality and features. Naturally, each person needs to make his/her own price/value judgements.

Pioneer VSX-47TX $1850
Pioneer VSX-49TX $2600
Denon AVR-4802 $1895
Denon AVR-5800 $2950
Onkyo TX-DS989 $2295

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post #30 of 109 Old 11-10-2001, 03:04 PM
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Etronics has the 49tx for $2500.
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