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post #271 of 312 Old 05-29-2008, 02:40 AM
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Being a former Ref 50 owner and watching them since the Ref 10 I thought I would comment for those of you holding off for the Ref 70.

This whole dialog is VERY familiar. Us B&K supporters waited, and waited, and waited for DPLII. Every month or so someone would call them, "Almost there, need to wait for Motorola, we won't do it until we are happy with the implementation etc. etc." Then it happened with DPLIIx... B&K came out YEARS later than most others BUT with a solid product with the best support of any manufacturer I have ever dealt with. Let's just say that to be a B&K supporter you need to be patient

So 1.5 years ago I was looking for a solution to accept lossless audio over HDMI and be able to run PS3, HD-A2 and HD DVR with one input to my TV. I knew better than to wait for B&K. I settled on the aging Yamaha 2600 as a pre/pro and couldn't be happier. Lossless audio can sound much better with the correct source and, as some have mentioned here, is now becoming more forgiving of the processor. Ease of use, way better than the B&K. I was also delighted to find that analog audio didn't suffer either (note I recommend you perform a genuinely blind test on this one no matter what you think from memory). This shocked me but my wallet has never been happier.

I am surprised to hear people referring to those many people with HDMI/lossless audio implementations now, whether it be receiver or pre/pro, as 'early adopters'. You need to face facts, B&K is late, AS USUAL. If you want it, it's out there for the taking. I have a 3 year old receiver that can be bought at rock bottom blow out prices that handles HDMI from many sources with aplomb - zero issues.

No doubt that B&K's product will be a great one once released and can certainly understand people holding off waiting to support such a great company. But don't kid yourselves --> B&K's typically conservative adoption delays mean you will be years later than most if you wait for them...
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post #272 of 312 Old 05-29-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texaspledge View Post

Being a former Ref 50 owner and watching them since the Ref 10 I thought I would comment for those of you holding off for the Ref 70.

This whole dialog is VERY familiar. Us B&K supporters waited, and waited, and waited for DPLII. Every month or so someone would call them, "Almost there, need to wait for Motorola, we won't do it until we are happy with the implementation etc. etc." Then it happened with DPLIIx... B&K came out YEARS later than most others BUT with a solid product with the best support of any manufacturer I have ever dealt with. Let's just say that to be a B&K supporter you need to be patient

So 1.5 years ago I was looking for a solution to accept lossless audio over HDMI and be able to run PS3, HD-A2 and HD DVR with one input to my TV. I knew better than to wait for B&K. I settled on the aging Yamaha 2600 as a pre/pro and couldn't be happier. Lossless audio can sound much better with the correct source and, as some have mentioned here, is now becoming more forgiving of the processor. Ease of use, way better than the B&K. I was also delighted to find that analog audio didn't suffer either (note I recommend you perform a genuinely blind test on this one no matter what you think from memory). This shocked me but my wallet has never been happier.

I am surprised to hear people referring to those many people with HDMI/lossless audio implementations now, whether it be receiver or pre/pro, as 'early adopters'. You need to face facts, B&K is late, AS USUAL. If you want it, it's out there for the taking. I have a 3 year old receiver that can be bought at rock bottom blow out prices that handles HDMI from many sources with aplomb - zero issues.

No doubt that B&K's product will be a great one once released and can certainly understand people holding off waiting to support such a great company. But don't kid yourselves --> B&K's typically conservative adoption delays mean you will be years later than most if you wait for them...

I have been following B&K since AVP 1030 (upgraded to 4090). I know that in 1997, I was among the first kids on the block with AC-3. What followed after that did not concern me as there has not been a major overhaul on this level until now. Not to defend them, however, there is well documented issues with HDMI as confirmed from video sources (both Sim2 & Runco) & higher end audiophile audio sources. While I am certain that your 2600 sounds good, it is hard to believe that the 130 ponys under the hood can drive my speakers like some solid class A/AB power supplies do.

I would like to know if said Yamaha has the ability to reproduce "lossless" as PCM, DD true, DD plus, or DTS-master? How about pass-through HDMI v1.3 or even 1080p, 1080/24?

Would be nice but I don't think ANYONE was prepared for the likes of changes brought about with this new round of tech. As fact, Onkyo is first to market to incorporate an "HQV" quality processor for video and have just washed the bugs out with recent (dealer only) upgrades to firmware.

I would love to see B&K move faster, however, the fact remains that since AC-3 the only changes till now were DD/DTS-6.1, neo 6.1 (bs), & DPL 2 which were really nothing more than expanded marketing strategies to keep DD alive for it 10 year life expectancy.

Again, just my $.02...

-MIP
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post #273 of 312 Old 05-29-2008, 04:19 PM
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Wow, being away from the BK 70 thread must be like watching a soap opera. You can miss a few months, come back and not miss anything.....

So March is now June... uh, huh.

Well just to stir the pot, any word on the so-called "upgrade path" from a ref50 to ref70? Was a rumor that a) modifications would be offered, b) trade in would be available....

Good to be back!
J

That's not a bug, it's a feature!
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post #274 of 312 Old 05-29-2008, 04:53 PM
 
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zig

no one knows, hell the Ref 70 was supposed to come out in May and i am guessing it been pushed to June (not much of a guess at it will be June in 2 days). What I cant understand is that at this point shouldn't Motorola be able to do the lossless decoding for B&K.
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post #275 of 312 Old 05-29-2008, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zigzag666 View Post

Wow, being away from the BK 70 thread must be like watching a soap opera. You can miss a few months, come back and not miss anything.....

So March is now June... uh, huh.

Well just to stir the pot, any word on the so-called "upgrade path" from a ref50 to ref70? Was a rumor that a) modifications would be offered, b) trade in would be available....

Good to be back!
J

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Hutnicki View Post

zig

no one knows, hell the Ref 70 was supposed to come out in May and i am guessing it been pushed to June (not much of a guess at it will be June in 2 days). What I cant understand is that at this point shouldn't Motorola be able to do the lossless decoding for B&K.

Welcome back... I know that B&K never offered any "upgrade path" as the architecture of the new unit is far more different than that of an S1 >S2 which called for a chassis overhaul. They will however be offering a "trade-up" at an expected faster (>6 months) than anticipated time frame. That in itself is worth 50% off retail.

The problem has nothing to do with the Motorola chip, it is related to HDMI issues that I am quite tired of rehashing. B&K is not the only manufacturer that would not pass it through QC. I know of several high end audio/video (Runco, Sim2) manufacturers that had much issue with "handshake" as being the biggest pain in the a*s in recent history of electronics compliance.

BTW, BD players decode lossless audio via PCM any way. The problem is passing both audio and video through the same path while keeping up with the pace of infrastructure updates(HDMI). Also, consider that the only media that benefits from all this change is BD as no other (surviving) vehicle can deliver said formating any way.

I am just as excited as the next guy to utilize my lossless channels, however, it has only been since recent reviews of BD that warrant the change. As tempted as I have been in the last week or so to buy an Onkyo 905 for my bedroom (the first manufacturer to bring on HQV processing), I am having a tough time picturing replacing my AVR 507 (monster) with the rather nicely designed japanese unit. There is no question that I can wait for the ref 70 for the large theater room. However, given the limited (although nice) availability of "good lossless content", I find it difficult to purchase a temporary solution- even for my bedroom (100" screen)...
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post #276 of 312 Old 06-01-2008, 07:13 PM
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I have been watching this thread from the sidelines and finally felt like contributing. I have had an avr 507 for 5 or 6 years and it has served well. It sounds good and it can actually drive the aerial speakers I recently upgraded to. (something few receivers could do) I would like to get an HDMI solution and would probably like to go to separates to better drive my speakers. As much as I would like to buy a product from B&K, I will not if they do not do something for previous owners, such as a trade up or something. I bought the reciever thinking it would be upgradeable, but it appears this will not happen.

I am not in a big rush to get something new, but I, like many others, will not go B&K if they don't help their existing owners. Anthem has upgraded their processors for years and seems to actually adhere to their upgrade promise.

B&K will have a good product when it comes out, but it is coming late. It is also expensive, though if it sounds good enough, that will be less of an issue. Has anyone heard anything else about any provisions B&K is making for current owners?
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post #277 of 312 Old 06-01-2008, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossebowe8 View Post

I have been watching this thread from the sidelines and finally felt like contributing. I have had an avr 507 for 5 or 6 years and it has served well. It sounds good and it can actually drive the aerial speakers I recently upgraded to. (something few receivers could do) I would like to get an HDMI solution and would probably like to go to separates to better drive my speakers. As much as I would like to buy a product from B&K, I will not if they do not do something for previous owners, such as a trade up or something. I bought the reciever thinking it would be upgradeable, but it appears this will not happen.

I am not in a big rush to get something new, but I, like many others, will not go B&K if they don't help their existing owners. Anthem has upgraded their processors for years and seems to actually adhere to their upgrade promise.

B&K will have a good product when it comes out, but it is coming late. It is also expensive, though if it sounds good enough, that will be less of an issue. Has anyone heard anything else about any provisions B&K is making for current owners?

As far as jumping on the HDMI train, I think Anthem is of the few (non-"midfi")
manufactures to join. Although Lexicon has been working on their platform for awhile, they have yet to release an update patch for its MC-12HD flagship ($9K). The last update that was posted was in february and only made the jump to v1.2. Their followers have been balking for a while now even after attempting to comply with previous (early) versions and these people have forked out one hell of a bit more $$s.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=903698

I spoke with B&K last week and a distributer who claim he has seen a prototype of the Ref.70. As far as trade-up is concerned (as posted before) B&K will honor it but cannot upgrade as the chassis is far different. Originally trade-ups were honored six months after a new design came to market, however, given that most of their clientele is custom installers they are considering a faster exchange.

-MIP
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post #278 of 312 Old 06-02-2008, 08:40 AM
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Any idea what they will give us? If less than 1k, I will sell it on my own and probably buy some other pre-pro.
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post #279 of 312 Old 06-02-2008, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossebowe8 View Post

Any idea what they will give us? If less than 1k, I will sell it on my own and probably buy some other pre-pro.

The usual deal is 50% off retail.

-MIP
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post #280 of 312 Old 06-02-2008, 06:21 PM
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50 percent off retail and B&K will keep a lot of customers.
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post #281 of 312 Old 06-03-2008, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossebowe8 View Post

50 percent off retail and B&K will keep a lot of customers.

That is what I am hoping for and judging by what I have read on other manufacture forums (from Onkyo up to Lexicon) that have had HDMI available (some since 2006)and they nightmare stories are endless and vary in degree by how much they spent and if the companies are going to update from V1.1-1.2-1.3. Even the new models with 1.3 still have some issues but for the most part I think the latest round-like Integra 9.8- have got it as straight as possible from their end.

Last I asked (2007) B&K they offered me a brand new Ref.50s2 for an old AVP4090 and $1200 cash w/trade. This was before any talk of the ref. 70. However, I have asked and their policy will be as good if not better (time-wise). Keeping fingers crossed.
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post #282 of 312 Old 06-03-2008, 01:02 PM
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The ref 50 for avp4090 with 1200 is a great trade in. I currently have the receiver but would probably want to trade up to the processor, which I'm sure they would allow.

In my opinion, (and others I'm sure) hdmi has complicated where they had said it would simplify. It costs companies and customers fortunes just to stay up to date.

Also what do you mean by "their policy will be as good if not better (time-wise)" with respect to the (time-wise)?

And does anyone know when they plan on shipping the units?

And how fast would they allow this trade in exchange to occur?
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post #283 of 312 Old 06-03-2008, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lacrossebowe8 View Post

The ref 50 for avp4090 with 1200 is a great trade in. I currently have the receiver but would probably want to trade up to the processor, which I'm sure they would allow.

In my opinion, (and others I'm sure) hdmi has complicated where they had said it would simplify. It costs companies and customers fortunes just to stay up to date.

Also what do you mean by "their policy will be as good if not better (time-wise)" with respect to the (time-wise)?

And does anyone know when they plan on shipping the units?

And how fast would they allow this trade in exchange to occur?

Yes, that is a great offer. HDMI has caused both audio & video industries severe headaches, especially for those companies like B&K, Anthem, Lexicon,Sim2, Runco & others that to keep loyalty need to upgrade or trade-up. As far as I am concerned the "midfi" arena is cleaning up and looking like champs while doing it @ very cheap prices. You don't get the complaints from a person who spend $1500 like you do from an audiophile for $5K-$25K.
IMHO, B&K is doing justice to customers by not releasing HDMI yet as they could have 2 years ago and then think about who would be complaining (B&K would profit in the short run). The asian market might be grabbing a huge market share of the temporary or "midfi" converters, however, in the long haul the company that treats its customers best in hind sight will grab a new generation of buyers loyalty.

The average time for trade-up (in the past) was 6 months after conception.
They are proposing to wrap up the Ref. 70 this month and as a rep confirmed it will initially ship not supporting DTS-master via bitstream. However, it will work fine to just run it PCM. Then they will have a ( I was told) free update patch. They are looking to speed up the trade, however have committed to nothing. The best idea is that the AVR 707 is supposed to be "out by August with Trade-ups due by November. That being said, I think the plan is to trade up twice as quick. Their reasoning for the quicker trade is due to the custom install market that they have penetrated and would like to get another run @ the share.

-MIP
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post #284 of 312 Old 06-04-2008, 10:38 AM
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Well, I hope the trade-in policy will actually happen but the Rep's I have talked to were very tight lipped and wouldn't concede to anything. I would love to trade in my AVR 507(which served me well) for the Reference 70.

We should see the Ref. 70 next month in our store (from what I have been told)

Crossing my fingers!

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post #285 of 312 Old 06-04-2008, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jgriffin99 View Post

Well, I hope the trade-in policy will actually happen but the Rep's I have talked to were very tight lipped and wouldn't concede to anything. I would love to trade in my AVR 507(which served me well) for the Reference 70.

We should see the Ref. 70 next month in our store (from what I have been told)

Crossing my fingers!

I have both the AVR & AVP and will trade the AVP first. I do not know what the policy is for trade of an AVR for an AVP and your AVR507 cost more than a ref. 50 (ref. 70). I think that your best value could be to wait and see, although B&K made it clear that they will honor their policy. I just bought the AVR on ebay as abandoners are dumping the units CHEAP.
For what I paid for my AVR, it suits me well in a bedroom until the ref 70 comes. If the policy follows as I understand, it will probably be sept-oct before action will happen. By that time they will have the issue of DTS-master (bitstream) cleared up.
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post #286 of 312 Old 06-04-2008, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MIP6697 View Post

The usual deal is 50% off retail.

-MIP

I've been waiting to see what happens with the Ref70, and if I can get 50% off retail by trading in my Ref50, it will be an offer that I will have to consider. Boy, I hope that the offer turns out to be true! I have really liked my Ref50 and would really like to stay with the B&K family if I can.

Cal68

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post #287 of 312 Old 06-04-2008, 06:06 PM
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Any idea whether B&K will do anything for us Ref. 30 owners on the purchase of a Ref. 70?
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post #288 of 312 Old 06-05-2008, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post

I've been waiting to see what happens with the Ref70, and if I can get 50% off retail by trading in my Ref50, it will be an offer that I will have to consider. Boy, I hope that the offer turns out to be true! I have really liked my Ref50 and would really like to stay with the B&K family if I can.

Cal68

Quote:
Originally Posted by bowen View Post

Any idea whether B&K will do anything for us Ref. 30 owners on the purchase of a Ref. 70?

I know B&K depends on their customer loyalty and have always offered me fair deals direct. As far as the reference 30 is concerned, I do not see that as an issue as they use it for "spare parts" and there really is not much diff between the 30 & 50 (architecturally speaking). Also, consider that they offered me a Ref. 50 S2 for my AVP4090 and $1200...

-MIP

BTW, I almost went "back" to lexicon a couple years ago (bigger $$) and opted to stick with the painless simplicity of B&K as they do not sell you on 15 DSP modes. In contrast, my brother spent large $$ on Lexicon for "bragging rights" and he is LIVID...
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post #289 of 312 Old 06-06-2008, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MIP6697 View Post

They are proposing to wrap up the Ref. 70 this month and as a rep confirmed it will initially ship not supporting DTS-master via bitstream. -MIP

MIP6697: do you mean that B&K will wrap up all manufacturing issues relating to the Ref70 in June and ship the product in July? Or do you think that they will ship the pre-pro in June itself? For complicated reasons, I have to make a decision on which pre-pro to get no later than mid-August, so I'm really hoping that the Ref70 is released by then. Thanks.

Cal68

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post #290 of 312 Old 06-06-2008, 11:09 AM
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Cal68- From everything I have been led to believe the Ref 70 WILL be out before mid-August. We should see them in July some time.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post

MIP6697: do you mean that B&K will wrap up all manufacturing issues relating to the Ref70 in June and ship the product in July? Or do you think that they will ship the pre-pro in June itself? For complicated reasons, I have to make a decision on which pre-pro to get no later than mid-August, so I'm really hoping that the Ref70 is released by then. Thanks.

Cal68

That sounds about right?

-MIP
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post #292 of 312 Old 06-06-2008, 02:08 PM
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Cal68- From everything I have been led to believe the Ref 70 WILL be out before mid-August. We should see them in July some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MIP6697 View Post

That sounds about right?

-MIP

Thanks guys.

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post #293 of 312 Old 06-15-2008, 01:02 PM
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Yea like most B&K owners I dont care either way about this preamp but It sucks they are releasing it without alot of features new receivers have.

Luckily I dont need hdmi so I'll stick with my ref 50 for a while and see what happens with all this hdmi stuff.

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post #294 of 312 Old 06-15-2008, 08:48 PM
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If you live in Houston, TX, go to Audio Concepts. They have a preproduction unit all setup for demo. The look of the unit is very nice. The sound was of a unit just out of the box, which the dealer told me it was. I can say the separation of voice, instruments, and background sound was great, I liked that. But the really good news is B&K is moving into production of the unit, based on this dealer having a Ref 70 they were willing to sale.
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post #295 of 312 Old 06-16-2008, 11:29 AM
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If you live in Houston, TX, go to Audio Concepts. They have a preproduction unit all setup for demo. The look of the unit is very nice. The sound was of a unit just out of the box, which the dealer told me it was. I can say the separation of voice, instruments, and background sound was great, I liked that. But the really good news is B&K is moving into production of the unit, based on this dealer having a Ref 70 they were willing to sale.

They were willing to sell a pre-production unit that has not passed Q&A as of last week???

-MIP
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post #296 of 312 Old 06-16-2008, 12:52 PM
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They were willing to sell a pre-production unit that has not passed Q&A as of last week???

-MIP

I understand what you are saying, but the price was 4k so the dealer said. May be he ment he could take my order only, but that's not what he said. The dealer also mentioned there were features that were not unlocked or he didn't know how to access at that time. So he couldn't use the unit with a Mic for speaker placement for example. I didn't care about anything other than two channel music and how it looked. I also want to go back in about a month to hear the unit after it's been broken in. I just thought you guys might be interested in knowing at least one Dealer actually has something to demo.

I would never buy a preproduction anything. I don't have that kind of money to throw away.
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post #297 of 312 Old 06-16-2008, 05:51 PM
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I understand what you are saying, but the price was 4k so the dealer said. May be he ment he could take my order only, but that's not what he said. The dealer also mentioned there were features that were not unlocked or he didn't know how to access at that time. So he couldn't use the unit with a Mic for speaker placement for example. I didn't care about anything other than two channel music and how it looked. I also want to go back in about a month to hear the unit after it's been broken in. I just thought you guys might be interested in knowing at least one Dealer actually has something to demo.

I would never buy a preproduction anything. I don't have that kind of money to throw away.

Yep! A spoke to "madisound" a place up in Wisconsin that had demoed it last month and said that DTS via bit stream was of the features not available till the first firmware update.

FYI, all that have been awaiting as I have, upon frequenting other (asian) pre/pro/avr threads I have found a pretty disgruntled crew of inpatient consumers that find it hard to believe that their 18 month old units are anchor weights- let alone the poor sucker that bought into the Integra 10.5 "built to order" $3500 abortion(w/o HDMI card). It is a three year old "flagshi*" that was supposed to be "future proof" and @ best will accommodate 2 HDMI @ 1080/60 & no support for lossless sound except via analog in/outs as Integra confirmed themselves. They do not even offer any type of trade-up/trade-in again, confirmed from Integra!

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post #298 of 312 Old 06-17-2008, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by MIP6697 View Post

Yep! A spoke to "madisound" a place up in Wisconsin that had demoed it last month and said that DTS via bit stream was of the features not available till the first firmware update.

FYI, all that have been awaiting as I have, upon frequenting other (asian) pre/pro/avr threads I have found a pretty disgruntled crew of inpatient consumers that find it hard to believe that their 18 month old units are anchor weights- let alone the poor sucker that bought into the Integra 10.5 "built to order" $3500 abortion(w/o HDMI card). It is a three year old "flagshi*" that was supposed to be "future proof" and @ best will accommodate 2 HDMI @ 1080/60 & no support for lossless sound except via analog in/outs as Integra confirmed themselves. They do not even offer any type of trade-up/trade-in again, confirmed from Integra!

-"GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT"-

-MIP

Just as a counterpoint...

I had a REF30 for 8 years (I still have it for backup).

I've been extremely happy with my Integra 9.8. No handshake problems, great sound from digital sources, and I have been enjoying lossless sound for 7 months now. With it's low cost, I've already decided to go with a separate analog preamp with HT bypass that will match or better the B&K analog sound. So, the analog preamp will likely be a permanent feature, and I can upgrade the 9.8 whenever necessary without costing me an arm or a leg. I don't use the REON processor that often (only with standard tv since I pass all HD sources and let my Oppo upconvert standard DVDs), but it has come in handy for tv--makes quite a difference.

I got 8 years out of my REF30, or about $312/year (and loved every minute of it). My 9.8 only needs to last only 4.8 years before its technology is too painfully obsolete, and will have cost me the same. And that's assuming no residual value. Actually, would only take 4 years flat if I could even get $250 for it then.

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post #299 of 312 Old 06-17-2008, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by MarketingProf View Post

Just as a counterpoint...

I had a REF30 for 8 years (I still have it for backup).

I've been extremely happy with my Integra 9.8. No handshake problems, great sound from digital sources, and I have been enjoying lossless sound for 7 months now. With it's low cost, I've already decided to go with a separate analog preamp with HT bypass that will match or better the B&K analog sound. So, the analog preamp will likely be a permanent feature, and I can upgrade the 9.8 whenever necessary without costing me an arm or a leg. I don't use the REON processor that often (only with standard tv since I pass all HD sources and let my Oppo upconvert standard DVDs), but it has come in handy for tv--makes quite a difference.

I got 8 years out of my REF30, or about $312/year (and loved every minute of it). My 9.8 only needs to last only 4.8 years before its technology is too painfully obsolete, and will have cost me the same. And that's assuming no residual value. Actually, would only take 4 years flat if I could even get $250 for it then.

Understood! I am referring to all those models(and poor suckers that bought them) that led up to the 9.8 and other v1.3 compliant models. FYI, I called Integra as an owner of a 10.5 (I was offered one) and they took 45 minutes to field the call and offered no assistance as "technology had moved beyond there expectations". My point is that their "marketing strategies" overextended itself as misinformation. As stated it is and was know that there was a handshake issue BEFORE the release of v1.3 and their choice was to go the route that I laid out in said post in thread. That does not say much about that company. IMHO, kudos to B&K for not pulling the same BS.

-MIP

p.s. "Food for thought", In your mathematical model you are assuming a residual value of zero (ref 30) and directly negating the trade-up program that B&K is know for. If they offer their typical program (as expected), your straight forward apples to apples comparison is now apples to oranges as there is NO option for directly trading up the 9.8 (another point already in post).
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post #300 of 312 Old 06-20-2008, 10:13 AM
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I have a ref50S2 that I bought 2nd hand a bunch of years ago, will they take that on a trade in? It has the original receipt, i'm just not the original owner. Just looking for clarification

Thanks!
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