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post #31 of 312 Old 01-04-2008, 11:05 AM - Thread Starter
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B&K sometimes doesn't know what it's doing. When I called about upgrading my AVR507 to an S2, the person I spoke to said there was no problem. I didn't have it done because of cost.

This is from a post on the Spot by a B&K dealer. The information is from B&K's National Touring Representative:
"The Ref, 70 is built on a whole new platform so NO upgrade will be offered to existing Preamp customers."

I am hard pressed to believe that B&K will take old, used Pre/Pros or Rec'rs for a credit toward the new models. What on earth would it do with hundreds of used, technologically out of date units?
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post #32 of 312 Old 01-04-2008, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

B&K sometimes doesn't know what it's doing. When I called about upgrading my AVR507 to an S2, the person I spoke to said there was no problem. I didn't have it done because of cost.

This is from a post on the Spot by a B&K dealer. The information is from B&K's National Touring Representative:
"The Ref, 70 is built on a whole new platform so NO upgrade will be offered to existing Preamp customers."

I am hard pressed to believe that B&K will take old, used Pre/Pros or Rec'rs for a credit toward the new models. What on earth would it do with hundreds of used, technologically out of date units?

Makes perfect sense to me.
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post #33 of 312 Old 01-04-2008, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post


I am hard pressed to believe that B&K will take old, used Pre/Pros or Rec'rs for a credit toward the new models. What on earth would it do with hundreds of used, technologically out of date units?

You are quite right. That is why I am not holding my breath. If they do a swap/upgrade, I'll think of it as an unexpected bonus.

I do hope that they release the Ref 70 soon because I've been eager to upgrade my pre-pro but I've been holding off until I can compare the Ref 70 to the others that are out there.

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post #34 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 06:04 AM
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Any news from CES about the B&K Ref 70? I checked the list of exhibitors at CES and did not see B&K listed in the audio category. Perhaps they are listed under a different category, but I started to wonder if they intend to make any announcements about the Ref 70 at CES.

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post #35 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 06:08 AM
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Anxiously taps foot....
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post #36 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 06:59 AM
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I recall that B&K had an upgrade from my 30 to the 50 using the 30 chassis. I recall my reason not to upgrade was because I would loose with my chassis one component input and XLR outputs. I really wanted the XLR outputs.

I don’t know much of the business model they work from but with license fees and everything involved in bringing these units to market I’m not sure the actual cost of the equipment is what drives up the price. I myself own a small company and work under a business model and people I’ve talked to about it have a hard time grasping where we make money sometimes but we do. If B&K swaps out a unit for a new one and includes 10 formats and only one is new do they pay a fee on all ten or just the one? Maybe they can build a business model for an upgrade path and maybe they don’t loose money in a swap. Again I don’t know the business but I’d like to be open-minded and ask B&K to help us in order to maintain loyalty.

Disclaimer; I am only offering my opinion and thoughts and since I am not educated in much of this please feel free to correct me.

Regards,

John
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post #37 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 08:05 AM
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This is from a post on the Spot by a B&K dealer. The information is from B&K's National Touring Representative:
"The Ref, 70 is built on a whole new platform so NO upgrade will be offered to existing Preamp customers."

I am hard pressed to believe that B&K will take old, used Pre/Pros or Rec'rs for a credit toward the new models. What on earth would it do with hundreds of used, technologically out of date units?


Maybe because they promised that you would be able to upgrade? Ref 50's are being sold today with the promise of upgradeability. I quote from the B&K website;

"B&K. Buy It Just Once"

"Upgradability: B & K is one of the first manufacturers in the audio/video industry to consistently offer software and hardware upgrades to its processing of audio signals. Through upgrades, B & K delivers exceptional value to its customers. But what is "Upgradability"? We define it as a philosophy of designing and manufacturing products so that as audio technology evolves, B&K can provide enhancements and improvements to its products."

I for one will probably move away from B&K if they do not provide an upgrade path (or trade in) for my ref 50. I have every reason to expect an upgrade to handle the new HD surround sound formats because that is what I was promised.
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post #38 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 09:06 AM - Thread Starter
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GREAT NEWS FROM B&K

I spoke to two engineers at B&K today.

1) B&K is not at CES.

2) The Ref.70 and AVR707 will not be coming until March or April.

3) B&K is actively exploring either some kind of add on unit for the current models, or, far more likely, a "swap" program where you send in your old unit for a credit towards the new one. This would happen at the same time as the release.
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post #39 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 01:18 PM
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Excellent news if it happens.
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post #40 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 01:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Sure helped me decide what rec'r to get.
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post #41 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

GREAT NEWS FROM B&K

I spoke to two engineers at B&K today.

1) B&K is not at CES.

2) The Ref.70 and AVR707 will not be coming until March or April.

3) B&K is actively exploring either some kind of add on unit for the current models, or, far more likely, a "swap" program where you send in your old unit for a credit towards the new one. This would happen at the same time as the release.


Sounds like you spoke to one of those that I spoke to and if they are reading this thread since I mentioned it to them the other day I'd like to vote for the swap because I really don't like add ons.

John
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post #42 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 02:41 PM - Thread Starter
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The two I spoke to were 90%+ sure it would be a swap. It would cost less than building an auxiliary unit. Now, we just have to be patient.

BTW, you can upgrade a Ref 50 or AVR507 to Series 2 for $798, which is what it costs B&K to replace the boards. No point in doing it now, though.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongig View Post

Sounds like you spoke to one of those that I spoke to and if they are reading this thread since I mentioned it to them the other day I'd like to vote for the swap because I really don't like add ons.

John

So, not to be a naysayer, but...this is exactly what they were saying to Ref 30, AVR-307 owners about providing an upgrade to the Series 2. And guess what...they left us behind. I would be willing to bet that is exactly what they will do to here. It would be interesting to come back to this thread once B&K release the new units and see if they provide any upgrade. But I, for one, don't believe it for a minute. Once they leave you behind one is unlikely to believe them again. But despite this I will be at the front of the line for the new unit once it comes out.
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post #44 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 03:30 PM - Thread Starter
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I believe you said the reason you could not get your 30/307, which you had upgraded to a 50/507, upgraded to Series 2 was because of the THX logos. This makes no sense.

The Ref 50 and AVR507 both have THX logos on the front, and can be upgraded to Series 2. Part of the upgrade is to replace the old faceplate with a S2 faceplate, thus eliminating the THX logo.

I suspect that the 30/307s upgraded to 50/507s were unable to take the $800 worth of new boards to turn them into Series 2.

But, whatever the reason, it had nothing to do with THX logos, as they are removed when the S2 faceplate is installed on the unit.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

I believe you said the reason you could not get your 30/307, which you had upgraded to a 50/507, upgraded to Series 2 was because of the THX logos. This makes no sense.

The Ref 50 and AVR507 both have THX logos on the front, and can be upgraded to Series 2. Part of the upgrade is to replace the old faceplate with a S2 faceplate, thus eliminating the THX logo.

I suspect that the 30/307s upgraded to 50/507s were unable to take the $800 worth of new boards to turn them into Series 2.

But, whatever the reason, it had nothing to do with THX logos, as they are removed when the S2 faceplate is installed on the unit.

Actually, it does make sense. I was speaking about the licensing fee that B&K had to kickback to THX for the removal of the logos. I didn't speak to the Ref 50 or AVR-507. In the case of the Ref 50 and AVR-507 they were willing to eat the cost but there were so many more Ref 30's and AVR-307's out there that they made a business decision not to eat it and thus provided no upgrade to those owners. B&K clearly stated to all of the Ref30 and AVR-307 owners that the upgrade would be available to them. They even had a price for it. I was quoted that price. But when I tried to get a RMA to return the unit and have the upgrade performed, they backed out and said that it was now, "under consideration." Then MONTHs later I was told that the upgrade was not being extended to AVR-307 or Ref 30 owners due to revenue costs associated with the removal of the THX logo. I posted on this over a year ago and I was not alone in my displeasure.

Look, B&K clearly suggests in their marketing that their upgradability is KEY in investing in B&K. Yet they clearly left behind the majority of their install base once the series 2 came out. I understand that this was a business decision and while I might not have liked it, I understood it. So I moved to Anthem. who by the way actually DOES provide an upgrade path to all customers.

But despite my belief that electronics make marginal improvement in sound quality, at my level of equipment, the B&K was a better sounding unit. (I also had a Ref 50 for a while) So despite my ability to send my Anthem AVM30 back to Anthem for an upgrade to the AVM50 complete with the Genum video chipset, I have decided to go back to B&K. But I do so with an open mind regarding B&K's true position on upgradability. They will provide it, providing it makes business sense.
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post #46 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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I find it impossible to believe that THX charges a fee to REMOVE its logo from a product that is no longer THX certified. In fact, that is precisely what THX would want done. If a maker removes the logo, what's THX going to do? THX charges for certification, not decertification. Makes absolutely no sense at all.

B&K decided NOT to pay the money for THX certification on Series 2. So THX charges B&K because it chose NOT to get THX certfication? I don't think so.

What THX would object to is continuing to use the THX logo on the Series 2 when they were NOT THX certified. THX could hardly complain, or charge for, NOT putting a THX logo on a product that was NOT THX certfied. But that is what you said THX did.

Totally illogical.
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post #47 of 312 Old 01-07-2008, 05:51 PM
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Well, I mentioned B&K at CES. I assumed that they would be there. Sorry for putting bad info out there.

As a Ref 10 owner I hope that they make upgrades/swaps out there for all of us.
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post #48 of 312 Old 01-08-2008, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Whitehead View Post

GREAT NEWS FROM B&K

I spoke to two engineers at B&K today.

1) B&K is not at CES.

2) The Ref.70 and AVR707 will not be coming until March or April.

3) B&K is actively exploring either some kind of add on unit for the current models, or, far more likely, a "swap" program where you send in your old unit for a credit towards the new one. This would happen at the same time as the release.

This is terrific news. I sure hope that B&K keep their word!

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post #49 of 312 Old 01-08-2008, 05:58 PM
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Robert- Still no room EQ?

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


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post #50 of 312 Old 01-08-2008, 08:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Probably will have room eq.
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post #51 of 312 Old 01-09-2008, 06:00 PM
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Cool. I was hoping that was part of the delay.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.


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post #52 of 312 Old 01-09-2008, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
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Probably will have room eq.

Any idea who's implementation?
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post #53 of 312 Old 01-10-2008, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Probably Audyssey.
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post #54 of 312 Old 01-10-2008, 07:59 AM
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I have the REF 31 which I love but its time for a change was the mention of maybe an upgrade path to include the 31 or did they say.

KJ
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post #55 of 312 Old 01-10-2008, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongig View Post

I recall that B&K had an upgrade from my 30 to the 50 using the 30 chassis. I recall my reason not to upgrade was because I would loose with my chassis one component input and XLR outputs. I really wanted the XLR outputs.

I don’t know much of the business model they work from but with license fees and everything involved in bringing these units to market I’m not sure the actual cost of the equipment is what drives up the price. I myself own a small company and work under a business model and people I’ve talked to about it have a hard time grasping where we make money sometimes but we do. If B&K swaps out a unit for a new one and includes 10 formats and only one is new do they pay a fee on all ten or just the one? Maybe they can build a business model for an upgrade path and maybe they don’t loose money in a swap. Again I don’t know the business but I’d like to be open-minded and ask B&K to help us in order to maintain loyalty.

Disclaimer; I am only offering my opinion and thoughts and since I am not educated in much of this please feel free to correct me.

Regards,

John

I did the upgrade from the 30 to the 50 and lost no inputs, XLR inputs we're not a part of the upgrade, all component inputs we're left in tact with the upgrade.

KJ
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post #56 of 312 Old 01-10-2008, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Again, there is no upgrade path for any existing B&K units to the new units. The architecture of the new units is entirely different from any of the old units. What will be offered is an add on box with the HDMI inputs, etc. (unlikely), or a swap program (likely).
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Any new news from B&K about the upgrade/swap/Ref70?

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post #58 of 312 Old 01-12-2008, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjohn View Post

I did the upgrade from the 30 to the 50 and lost no inputs, XLR inputs we're not a part of the upgrade, all component inputs we're left in tact with the upgrade.

Sorry Keith but you took me a bit out of context and it was my fault. I only meant that by buying the ref50 and not doing the upgrade I picked up one component video and the XLR outputs. Read it again because I understand it that way but I sure can see how you took it. You didn't loose anything when you upgraded to the 50.

Thanks,

John
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post #59 of 312 Old 01-12-2008, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jongig View Post

Sorry Keith but you took me a bit out of context and it was my fault. I only meant that by buying the ref50 and not doing the upgrade I picked up one component video and the XLR outputs. Read it again because I understand it that way but I sure can see how you took it. You didn't loose anything when you upgraded to the 50.

Thanks,

John

Yes I seen that after I POSTED.

KJ
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post #60 of 312 Old 01-12-2008, 09:52 PM
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I too was excited to hear of the 707 impending release to replace my 307,
but other than HD audio and a few HDMI convenience switching can anyone give me a good reason to drop 4 G's on a new receiver?

I just got my 50" plasma, PS3 and DirecTV HD set up in the new house last week and BluRay via dig.optical audio and HDMI directly to the TV is the most amazing thing I've heard and seen. I can't imagine it being a better experience,
(w/JM Lab CObalts and surrounds), certainly not for $4k minus the $850 the 307's are closing out on Ebay lately.

So, how amazing an upgrade will I get for this kind of money, seeing as the Tru-audio probably won't even be featured in the first releases?!? Anyone?
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