Latest Onkyo TX-SRXXX Receivers - A Bit Strident? - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 11 Old 10-21-2007, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
reincarnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Tom Norton over at Ultimate AV observed in his review of the Onkyo TX-SR875 the following:

“Onkyo does not recommend nominal speaker impedances of less than 4 ohms under any circumstances. In fact if the nominal impedance is between 4 and 6 ohms, it recommends that the speaker switch in the setup menu be changed from 6 ohms to 4 ohms. The Onkyo does run fairly hot, but I never experienced any problems using its 6-ohm setting with my Revel Concerta speakers.
…The Onkyo's sound did tend a bit to brightness, though perhaps it would be more correct to say that it did not suffer sources with exaggerated highs gracefully, particularly at high playback levels. The issue was more evident on soundtracks that were bright to begin with.
…The Last Samurai on HD DVD is an example of a soundtrack that sounds a little ragged on the Onkyo, with music that's zingy in the loud bits and gunfire that sounds a little too cutting."

Two things:
1) I confirm this stridency also in the treble of the TX-SR705 model
2) it was largely was eliminated for me by switching to the 4 ohm mode. But the nice clarity was gone too. I’m not satisfied either way!

So here we have an expensive SOTA receiver which won’t drive many real world speakers. I enjoyed the clarity but not the striendency. Is this a fatal flaw?
Its not very green design either with its considerable wasted heat. For what purpose?
Everyone must take personal responsibility to make for a change.
For these reasons I'm going to investigate the Denon AVR-1908.

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/av...ers/907onk875/
reincarnate is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 11 Old 10-21-2007, 07:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 348
I'd agree that without Audyssey, the highs are a little too much for me... but after running Audyssey, no problems here. Since the 705 uses the Audyssey curve, it's rolling off the high end slightly in much the same way THX modes do. At first, I thought I didn't like the rolloff, but with my older Polk speakers, it made the highs less "sparkly" without losing any of the detail. I'm also not getting any kind of sibilance or harshness with dialogue even at blow-you-out-of-the-room levels.

I listen to a lot of music with heavy use of acoustic instruments. With stuff like Nickel Creek or Glen Phillips, I get a very pleasing and realistic sound from mandolin, guitar, etc. Even with violins, where I normally notice harshness in the highs, I'm getting a very solid sound without it breaking up.

Perhaps it just didn't mesh well with your particular speakers. With my humble RTi70/CSi40/RTi28/SVS 20-39CS+/Buttkicker setup, the 705 has been the audio equivalent of wiping a layer of dust off of a camera lens. YMMV.

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Anderson is offline  
post #3 of 11 Old 10-21-2007, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
reincarnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I'd agree that without Audyssey, the highs are a little too much for me... but after running Audyssey, no problems here. Since the 705 uses the Audyssey curve, it's rolling off the high end slightly in much the same way THX modes do. At first, I thought I didn't like the rolloff, but with my older Polk speakers, it made the highs less "sparkly" without losing any of the detail. I'm also not getting any kind of sibilance or harshness with dialogue even at blow-you-out-of-the-room levels.

I listen to a lot of music with heavy use of acoustic instruments. With stuff like Nickel Creek or Glen Phillips, I get a very pleasing and realistic sound from mandolin, guitar, etc. Even with violins, where I normally notice harshness in the highs, I'm getting a very solid sound without it breaking up.

Perhaps it just didn't mesh well with your particular speakers. With my humble RTi70/CSi40/RTi28/SVS 20-39CS+/Buttkicker setup, the 705 has been the audio equivalent of wiping a layer of dust off of a camera lens. YMMV.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. Maybe Audyssey is useful after all?
Most users systems have so many other issues that this flaw is masked. More than usual power conditioning helped too. That is, don't use the high current amplifier conditioning outlets: use the receiver outlet.

I've been searching the various owners manuals (read not looking here) for receiver that can drive 4 ohm loads and drive an UNpowered subwoffer. A futile experience? Obviously this is where manufactures have been cutting corners. Limited drive capability. Wimpy amplifiers
But I can't put a stack of amplifiers in the kitchen now can I? So I'm still searching. My receiver price range is now up to over $1,000.

Update: The Yamaha 1800 can drive 4 ohm front only speakers:
"If the speakers are 6-ohm speakers, set “SPEAKER IMP.” to “6Ω MIN” before using this unit (see page 33). You can also use 4-ohm speakers as the front speakers (see page 117)."
See how great of a bargain receivers are? Only $1200 to drive common speakers adequately.

Also here is a very important consideration for people who want to use their receiver with a PC based media server:
"Audio sampling frequencies higher than 48 kHz are sampled down to 48 kHz or lower and then sound field programs are applied."
Here the Yamaha model 1800 sound fields can be used with the PS3 and the Xbox 360 media servers which quietly transcode every audio source to 48K. Its degrading and unnecessary but true. (They sneakily are invoking DRM to make copying to CD more difficult. The consumer, as usual is clueless.) The question here is how many receivers sound fields work at 48Khz? Congratulation's go to Yamaha for realizing and developing a solution for this serious incompatibility issue.
reincarnate is offline  
post #4 of 11 Old 10-21-2007, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
reincarnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
The feature set of the Onkyo sure is difficult to beat even when spending double the price.
For example the Denon's don't even have pre-outs until you spend double the 705 price. And only two HDMI inputs in the $1200 AVR-2808?
Must be the worthless US dollar.

Noticed that the Onkyo 705 has an comprehensive (and complicated) table listing the surround sound modes for each stereo PCM frequency from 32–96 kHz. The */2 must mean they down-sample too.
So I don't know what I'm going to do. It will certainly take more time to research.
reincarnate is offline  
post #5 of 11 Old 10-21-2007, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
reincarnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Others confirm the brightness and other issues.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post11664327

In hindsight AVS forum members went way overboard in their enthusiasm for the new Onyko line. They did not live up to their hype. Heck even their pre-amps run very hot.
I'd recommend the 705 with careful system matching, but I'd have to stop there. If Onkyo can voice the amplifier to be just a bit more neutral then they would have an unqualified winner.
reincarnate is offline  
post #6 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 07:09 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
JOHNnDENVER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 13,377
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I think I'd justtry to pair with some ultra warm, or bassey speakers. They still have similar tonality of virtually all Onkyo AVR's that have come out in the past 5 years.

A lot of people are running really bright speakers these days. (small sats)
JOHNnDENVER is offline  
post #7 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 07:19 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rveras's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Haverhill, MA
Posts: 1,745
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


The */2 must mean they down-sample too.

*/2 means = 5.1 input source, PCM, Dolby, DTS, etc...

except */2 = 7.1 input source, PCM, Dolby, DTS, etc...

The only down sampling that I'm aware of is if the input signal is > 92KHz 5.1/7.1.
rveras is offline  
post #8 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 07:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,766
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 248 Post(s)
Liked: 243
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltimateAV Article View Post

The Onkyo's sound did tend a bit to brightness, though perhaps it would be more correct to say that it did not suffer sources with exaggerated highs gracefully, particularly at high playback levels. ...

On the other hand, it just might be that as I've become more accustomed to the new, higher resolution soundtracks I've grown less tolerant of all but the best examples of conventional Dolby Digital. In any event, the highs from Denon's just-discontinued AVR-4306 receiver were a bit smoother and sweeter than the Onkyo's, though the Denon's midbass proved a bit too rich for my current system. Richness through the midbass and lower midrange can affect how the highs are perceived.

When I used the Onkyo from its preamp outputs into an Anthem Statement P5 power amp, the sound was also smoother and more relaxed. But the P5 is an expensive add-on ($5,000) with more than twice the Onkyo's power, so that was no surprise.

But the more I listened to the Onkyo doing it all on its own, the more it impressed me. It did as fine a job as any front-end I've used in carving out a believable soundstage, with solid imaging, natural-sounding dialogue, a well-balanced treatment of music and effects and, where available, active surrounds.

Some things jump out from this:

- Used as a Preamp it sounded smoother and more relaz (Good for me since I have an 885 on Order)

- Denon did sound sweeter but it more mid-bass (too much for the current system which can affect the perception on highs.

I would say on the whole this is favorable review. My take is that Onkyo is more revealing and therefore unforgiving.
He used the mid priced Revels, I have Salons which should also be a bit sweeter as well.

- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is offline  
post #9 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 08:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
mrgribbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Decatur, IL
Posts: 2,478
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Have you tried using the RE-EQ function. I don't but I've heard tell that it does a yeoman's job of taking the finger nails and blackboard out of the highs. Might be worth a try.

Some days it's hardly worth chewing through the restraints.
mrgribbles is offline  
post #10 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 09:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jeremy Anderson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 348
Quote:
Originally Posted by reincarnate View Post

I've been searching the various owners manuals (read not looking here) for receiver that can drive 4 ohm loads and drive an UNpowered subwoffer. A futile experience? Obviously this is where manufactures have been cutting corners. Limited drive capability. Wimpy amplifiers
But I can't put a stack of amplifiers in the kitchen now can I? So I'm still searching. My receiver price range is now up to over $1,000.

Ideally, you're not going to find a receiver in this range that is going to adequately drive 4 ohm speakers. Why not just get an external amp and use the 705 as a pre-amp? Something like the Outlaw 7075 would make a handy budget solution for driving 4 ohm speakers. http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html

"Never believe any quote you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
Jeremy Anderson is offline  
post #11 of 11 Old 10-22-2007, 10:07 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
reincarnate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,989
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Good question!
Short answer is because of HDMI limitations when driving dual displays.
That is, the audio and video capabilities of each of the two systems must be largely identical so that they report the identical requirements to the source.
If you really want to punish yourself go read my evaluation of the Monoprice 4*2 matrix switcher over in the HDMI forum.
reincarnate is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off