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SSP & Pre/Pros that support HDMI Audio MPCM

301K views 1K replies 179 participants last post by  Eric Carroll 
#1 ·
Last Update: 5-Jul-2011



Google SSP Spreadsheet is the source for the table. Please feel free to update the "Next Version" tab of the table. I will edit and promote to this posting as it evolves.

Feature Legend:
  • Codec
    • HBR - native High Bit Rate Decoders: Dolby Digital TrueHD, DTS-HD MA (and MPCM)
    • MPCM - multi-channel PCM over HDMI (either 6 or 8 channels) support only
  • HDMI Version
    • HDMI 1.0 is required for MPCM
    • HDMI 1.2 is required for SACD DSD format
    • HDMI 1.3 is required for HBR format
    • HDMI 1.4 is required for 3D Video
  • Video Mode
    • VS - Video Switching - only switches HDMI inputs to output & limited transcoding
    • VP - Video Processing - supports video processing features beyond switching & transcoding, which may include noise & cadence management, aspect ratio management, anamorphic support, colour management.
  • Surround Mode
    • THX -THX audio processing modes supported (and DPL as well)
    • DPLIIX - Dolby Pro Logic IIx Movies & Music modes supported
    • DPLIIz - Dolby Pro Logic IIz for support of additional height speakers
  • HBR Surr. - can the Surround Mode be applied to the HBR bitstream codecs (TrueHD, DTS HD MA)?
  • Decoders
    • DSD - native SACD DSD over HDMI decode
    • HDCD - High Definition CD
  • Spkr X-Over - Speaker Crossover:
    • Fixed - 80Hz for all speakers
    • Single - one adjustable crossover value applied to all speakers
    • Pair - adjustable crossover value per pair of speakers (F/C/S/SB/SW)
    • Custom - adjustable crossover value per speaker
  • Room Correction
    • None
    • GEC - Graphic Equalizer (fix band freq domain only)
    • PEQ - Parametric Equalizer (freq domain only)
    • Lexicon EQ
    • Audyssey - MultEQ, MultEQ XT, MultEQ Pro
    • Trinnov
  • Analog Bypass - can the SSP be used as a pure preamp passing analog inputs through a pure analog path?
  • Feature boxes that are blank (empty) mean that the feature behaviour has not yet been determined.

 
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#853 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by k elone /forum/post/17670263


I was looking at buying a used Anthem AVM 40, and I have some blu ray audio questions. I have looked in this thread for the answers, but I could not find the answer. I also looked in the the blu ray audio thread, and I was told to search in this area. So, can someone answer the following questions?



The AVM 40 has HDMI Inputs, but it does not decode Dolby True or DTS Master audio. Would I be able send Dolby True or DTS Master Audio through HDMI to the AVM 40 with the Blu ray player doing the decoding? If so, what settings would I use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgwalsh /forum/post/17670297


Someone may correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you would just use analog patch cable because it's being decoded before the processor. I don't believe you send predecoded audio over HDMI.

Sure you can. All you do is set your BDP to output LPCM and, assuming it is a player that can decode the HD codecs, the AVM 40 will get a full resolution HD signal in LPCM. The AVM40 can handle 6 channel LPCM via HDMI.
 
#854 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson /forum/post/17670587


Sure you can. All you do is set your BDP to output LPCM and, assuming it is a player that can decode the HD codecs, the AVM 40 will get a full resolution HD signal in LPCM. The AVM40 can handle 6 channel LPCM via HDMI.

Cool! Learn something new everyday.
 
#857 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar /forum/post/17673510


I mean Audio Rate Control, Pioneer call it PQLS and Sony call it HATS. I think it is an optional part of HDMI 1.3 spec. Potentially it could cut down jitter significantly.

Ok, you made me work for this one.

HDMI 1.3a CEC 13.16 page CEC45-97 "Audio Rate Control" .


CEC hasn't seen wide deployment in SSPs yet. CEC alone is 97 pages, sheesh. I don't know what the industry take is for CEC option conformance in general, or for this option in particular. Interesting question.


Note that it is not marked mandatory for initiator or follower so implementation is presumed to be optional.


I believe the Denon AVP-A1HD implements CEC, but I have no idea if it supports this option.
 
#858 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll /forum/post/17677086


Ok, you made me work for this one.

HDMI 1.3a CEC 13.16 page CEC45-97 "Audio Rate Control" .


CEC hasn't seen wide deployment in SSPs yet. CEC alone is 97 pages, sheesh. I don't know what the industry take is for CEC suboption conformance in general, or for this one in particular. Interesting question.


I believe the Denon AVP-A1HD implements CEC, but I have no idea if it does this suboption.

AFAIK, only Pioneer and Sony have implemented it in some form. Ayre is promising it in their new player. Charlie Hansen talks about it on the Ayre thread.
 
#859 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll /forum/post/17677086


Ok, you made me work for this one.

HDMI 1.3a CEC 13.16 page CEC45-97 "Audio Rate Control" .


CEC hasn't seen wide deployment in SSPs yet. CEC alone is 97 pages, sheesh. I don't know what the industry take is for CEC option conformance in general, or for this option in particular. Interesting question.


Note that it is not marked mandatory for initiator or follower so implementation is presumed to be optional.


I believe the Denon AVP-A1HD implements CEC, but I have no idea if it supports this option.

the denon did have a cec update. however it manages to minimise jitter using a master clock signal via the denon link version four the avp was updated too and newer universal players the denon dvd-a1ud and 4010 players come equipped with.


From all accounts the hats system that sony uses for its 5400es sacd player is no longer utilised by pioneer which has gone its separate ways with pqls for jitter minimisation
 
#860 ·
It is likely that Pioneer is using the CEC implementation but modified it slightly to make it incompatible with everyone else (They pulled this same stunt with ILink Rate Control). Sony might actually be working to spec (They did with Ilink)


CEC ARC is a standardised way forward, I would hope for support from companies like Marantz (They had a decent standardised rate control on their couple of Ilink products - unlike Onkyo) and smaller companies. I was pushing hard for support in the Cary 11A thread but it requires that the SSP clocking is design with rate control in mind from the start and is not the sort of thing you just add with a firmware update.


The Ayre thread is very interesting; it provides some insight into high end manufacturer design decisions. Personally I think the Ayre player will be a great Blu player (Its quite a long way from the Oppo it started as).
 
#861 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krobar /forum/post/17678551


It is likely that Pioneer is using the CEC implementation but modified it slightly to make it incompatible with everyone else (They pulled this same stunt with ILink Rate Control). Sony might actually be working to spec (They did with Ilink)


CEC ARC is a standardised way forward, I would hope for support from companies like Marantz (They had a decent standardised rate control on their couple of Ilink products - unlike Onkyo) and smaller companies. I was pushing hard for support in the Cary 11A thread but it requires that the SSP clocking is design with rate control in mind from the start and is not the sort of thing you just add with a firmware update.


The Ayre thread is very interesting; it provides some insight into high end manufacturer design decisions. Personally I think the Ayre player will be a great Blu player (Its quite a long way from the Oppo it started as).

krobar the original ilink implementations of sony and pio were very much compatible. I know of people using pio 969 players with the big daddy tada sony over ilink no probs. both denon and marantz did bring product out with ilink capablity as well, but not sure what they had as compatible with anything else.


the hdmi implementations of sony, pio and denon are most definitely not compatible though they are all proprietary.


as far as cary they had the digilink that they had on the c11 was about as useless as t!ts on a bull !
and the c11a from the looks has enough handshake and hdmi lock on problems let alone introducing CEC and rate control in the mix ! hehe.


good luck in your quest, I suspect that the interest factor either is not really there, or that each manufacturer got their own ideas on their mind and perhaps wanting a point of differentiation to set them apart ?
 
#862 ·
Was hoping that Theta, Lexicon et al would incorporate it as a way to add value (and perhaps sense, as most buyers don't use the analog outs anyway) to their player/processor combos. I'll assume they're dealing with jitter in other ways.
 
#863 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau /forum/post/17678673


krobar the original ilink implementations of sony and pio were very much compatible. I know of people using pio 969 players with the big daddy tada sony over ilink no probs. both denon and marantz did bring product out with ilink capablity as well, but not sure what they had as compatible with anything else.


good luck in your quest, I suspect that the interest factor either is not really there, or that each manufacturer got their own ideas on their mind and perhaps wanting a point of differentiation to set them apart ?

Pio and Sony Ilink products would work together but would not enable audio rate control. Marantz, Esoteric and Sony products could enable audio rate control sucessfully when mixed together. Onkyo never supported ARC over Ilink (It was optional on Ilink too) and I'm unsure about Yamaha and DCS.


There are lots of ways to control jitter but short of a shared master clock for source and prepro then ARC is IMHO one of the best methods for controlling transmission jitter. Another way is to allow streaming of secondary audio streams too thus avoiding the need for ARC for Profile 1.1/2.0 content but I think only DTS have done this so far and it still doesnt help for CDs, DVD-As, PCM DVDs/Blus and SACDs.
 
#864 ·
I am curious what is the PLL solution apparently implemented in the latest Onkyo/Integra processors (80.1 and 5507). Since it is on the processor side, it should work regardless of what player is being used.

I am totally clueless of how things are done in audio, but in my line of work I deal with optical communications, and PLL (phase-locked loop) is implemented in every optical receiver. The clock signals are not sent with the data, instead, a PLL in the receiver does what is known as "clock recovery" - it locks on the most pronounced frequency (bit rate) in the data signal and provides master clock for the decision circuits deciding if the next bit is 1 or 0. And that is typically done at 10, and in advanced systems at 40 and even 100 Gigabit per second. My assumption is that at 96 or even 192 kilobit per second rate for audio, it would be absolutely trivial and cheap to implement the same kind of solution. And then it would not matter if you are using a $50 player, as long as it can read 1s and 0s correctly.
 
#865 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreator /forum/post/17681480


I am curious what is the PLL solution apparently implemented in the latest Onkyo/Integra processors (80.1 and 5507). Since it is on the processor side, it should work regardless of what player is being used.

I am totally clueless of how things are done in audio, but in my line of work I deal with optical communications, and PLL (phase-locked loop) is implemented in every optical receiver. The clock signals are not sent with the data, instead, a PLL in the receiver does what is known as "clock recovery" - it locks on the most pronounced frequency (bit rate) in the data signal and provides master clock for the decision circuits deciding if the next bit is 1 or 0. And that is typically done at 10, and in advanced systems at 40 and even 100 Gigabit per second. My assumption is that at 96 or even 192 kilobit per second rate for audio, it would be absolutely trivial and cheap to implement the same kind of solution. And then it would not matter if you are using a $50 player, as long as it can read 1s and 0s correctly.

kreator I think you make a good point. one way around not needing all this rate control and clock signals and what not. is for in player decoding and hence the players transport and dac share the same clock hence removing opportunity of clocking errors and need for reclocking and clocking signals to synch the clocks. the problem is though that end up in the domain of pcm which is more prone to jitter than bitstreaming. though if you went over analog with a player with top quality analog to a pre with top analog capablity that would be another way around it all



ps krobar, I can tell you for sure the pio 969 to the sony tada indeed did enable rate control with the hats systems on the sony being engaged. cant say it worked the other way around though with say a sony 9000es with i-link in to a pio avr. not that i-link really relevant anymore. thats one means of connection definitely thats well and trully passed on by...
 
#867 ·
B&K Ref 70 HD codec upgrade apparently lives.

omnikurt quotes the B&K Engineering Manager :

Quote:
We are still working on the Freescale DSP56720 hardware (S/PDIF I/O specifically).

Most of the required Freescale DSP patches are in place.

We should have a more firm DSP Update ETA after the first of the year.

If I read this correctly it says they will have an estimate in the beginning of 2010 on when they will deliver the upgrade.
 
#868 ·
Eric


I want to thank you for keeping the first post up-to-date as a very useful reference. As a result, I stumbled upon a product I didn't know existed, the JBL AV2. In my current system, (Synthesis® One Array) I opted for the JBL SDP-5 which is a slightly modded Lexcion MC-8. It's a fine unit, but it fails the test when it comes to 7.1 analog inputs. It can do two 5.1 analog ins, but not 7.1.



It seemed my only step up was to the JBL SDP-40HD (modded MC-12HD), and that's both a lot of money and IMO an expensive interim step. With my recently purchased Oppo BDP-83 upgraded to SE status, I had all the interpretive electronics I needed to get HD audio converted to 7.1 analog output, but no easy solution for getting the 7.1 analog input I needed. At this point, I'm unwilling to pay high prices for interim HDMI audio solutions while the standard is still a moving target, and I certainly don't need a full receiver. As a plus, the AV2's HDMI 1.1 capability will give me something to play with until a really compelling solution with HDMI 1.3a or 1.4 or 1.? or 2.? comes out.


As it turns out, I know a Synthesis® dealer who can procure one for me at an amazing price, and it's on it way for the new year. It's a fine interim solution while the HDMI folks figure out where this is going. Thanks again for keeping the references up to date.
 
#874 ·
#877 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKtheater /forum/post/17899410


They are working on incorporating Trinnov into their Rhapsody I believe.

Yes. My understanding is that they are first planning a stand-alone version derived from the studio version but with irrelevant and unnecessary functions deleted and this will be ported to their processors.
 
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