SSP & Pre/Pros that support HDMI Audio MPCM - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 03:51 PM
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Here is some two new pieces from Marantz

http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/ces2008/010908Marantz/
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post #92 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 04:39 PM
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Do you know of any pre/pro with 12 ~ 14 channels of DACs and volume controls for a SINGLE zone, among those with HDMI inputs? I see that most has only up to 8 or 10 channels...
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post #93 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 05:52 PM
 
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Removing the amps would (A) reduce the price and (B) allow me to use my amps that I prefer for 7.1 surround and stereo.

Why not just use your pre outs on your receiver?

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However, if you know and can back it up, please, I am all ears.

Look how long it took the "high end" to re badge products for the DVD side. Hi def has reached the point that 2-3 engineers at a single high end company can no longer put out even a re badged product.

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The Mac line is all rebadged -- from what? I realize that D&M Holdings owns Marantz and Denon in addition to McIntosh, but do not understand what Mac rebadges other than their music servers which are based on Escient Music Servers (which McIntosh owns). IF Mac was rebadging their pre/pros, they would have a new one out soon instead of waiting another year or two for the MX137.

There is nothing different about the MX135/136 over your standard receiver and if you think that the pre amp analog section does improve the sound quality save your money and buy a C45 pre amp.
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post #94 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

The issue with most SSPs right now is they are missing HDMI 1.3 and high bit rate (HBR) decoders. This means you cannot listen to DTS-HD MA soundtracks. Whether this matters to you or not is personal preference of course.

I know. But I plan to upgrade to a BD player later in the year that does decode DTS-HD MA internally. Getting a pre/pro now, I get TrueHD now but DTS-HD MA later, but it's also a heckuva lot easier (for me) to swap a player in and out of my system than a pre/pro.

If it's not worth waiting until the last minute to do, then it's not worth doing.

KevinVision 7.1 ... Something old and something new :-)

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post #95 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 06:01 PM
 
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I know. But I plan to upgrade to a BD player later in the year that does decode DTS-HD MA internally. Getting a pre/pro now, I get TrueHD now but DTS-HD MA later, but it's also a heckuva lot easier (for me) to swap a player in and out of my system than a pre/pro.

Is this because lexicon is going to be years behind everyone else?
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post #96 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Why not just use your pre outs on your receiver?



Look how long it took the "high end" to re badge products for the DVD side. Hi def has reached the point that 2-3 engineers at a single high end company can no longer put out even a re badged product.



There is nothing different about the MX135/136 over your standard receiver and if you think that the pre amp analog section does improve the sound quality save your money and buy a C45 pre amp.

I don't need to use the pre-outs on my receiver since I don't have a receiver--but have a MX134 and can use the analog inputs.

My suggestion as to how Pioneer Elite could create a really great pre/pro came as a result of McIntosh, Anthem, Mark Levinson, and Lexicon refusing to add processing of all HD digital surround formats in their pre/pros -- they feel that all processing should be done in the players.

If you think that there is nothing different about the MX135/136 over a standard receiver, then you don't understand McIntosh -- one little difference is that a receiver has built-in amps whereas a pre/pro does not. While the MX135/136 IMO is much more attractive than other pre/pros, it is an opinion shared by those of us that like that brand for its quality and in the case of the amplifiers, for their quality and their resale value in case they are not kept for 20+ years by their owners.

McIntosh does not re-badge anything other than perhaps their music server - they engineer each of their pieces from scratch and being a relatively small company, do not have the engineering staff to create very many new pieces at any given time--thus they will not add a new pre/pro for at least another year or more. They even wind their own transformers inhouse. Perhaps you and I are using different definitions of the term "re-badge."

My MX134's analog section is the equivalent of the C45 preamp, but I am interested in the digital domain of high def lossless audio -- and am interested in a top notch pre/pro with HDMI 1.3a or b and that can process all HD audio formats and then have a great set of DACs. As I surmised in my original post -- what meets my needs, since McIntosh is waay behind in creating a new pre/pro, is Pioneer Elite's newest topend receiver since it would not take much engineering by Pioneer to create a wonderful pre/pro from it -- I like its looks, its controls and feature set and happen to like and trust Pioneer Elite. (I am considering the Onkyo Integra on an interim basis for a couple of years.)

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post #97 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Is this because lexicon is going to be years behind everyone else?

When I contacted Lexicon last week, they indicated that they were not going to change pre/pros -- that the processing would be done in the players. (Same response from McIntosh and Anthem)

While you and I feel that they are going to be behind, they feel that processing of HD audio formats should not be done in the pre/pro but in the players (to which I alluded in a recent posting) and then their current pre/pros can handle all 8 digital channels just fine.

MikeSp

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post #98 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 06:29 PM
 
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My suggestion as to how Pioneer Elite could create a really great pre/pro came as a result of McIntosh, Anthem, Mark Levinson, and Lexicon refusing to add processing of all HD digital surround formats in their pre/pros -- they feel that all processing should be done in the players.

A lot of high end companies are saying this because they can not even re badge a product with their own name on it.

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If you think that there is nothing different about the MX135/136 over a standard receiver, then you don't understand McIntosh -- one little difference is that a receiver has built-in amps whereas a pre/pro does not. While the MX135/136 IMO is much more attractive than other pre/pros, it is an opinion shared by those of us that like that brand for its quality and in the case of the amplifiers, for their quality and their resale value in case they are not kept for 20+ years by their owners.

I own a MX135! The amp section of a receiver is not going to have a negative effect on the audio. The quality of Mcintosh drops very low when you deal with the DVD players and audio processors. I will agree that their amps are of good quality but that is it. Whay care about resale on something that is going to be replaced/out done by technology every 5 years?

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McIntosh does not re-badge anything other than perhaps their music server - they engineer each of their pieces from scratch and being a relatively small company, do not have the engineering staff to create very many new pieces at any given time--thus they will not add a new pre/pro for at least another year or more. They even wind their own transformers inhouse. Perhaps you and I are using different definitions of the term "re-badge."

No, Mcintosh uses the same DSP and DAC's that everyone else uses.

http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE%2D5

Here is the DSP that the MX135/136 uses and receivers also use this same TI DSP chip. Mcintosh hand makes certain transformers but they also by R core transformers from japan, so what is your point?

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My MX134's analog section is the equivalent of the C45 preamp, but I am interested in the digital domain of high def lossless audio -- and am interested in a top notch pre/pro with HDMI 1.3a or b and that can process all HD audio formats and then have a great set of DACs. As I surmised in my original post -- what meets my needs, since McIntosh is waay behind in creating a new pre/pro, is Pioneer Elite's newest topend receiver since it would not take much engineering by Pioneer to create a wonderful pre/pro from it -- I like its looks, its controls and feature set and happen to like and trust Pioneer Elite. (I am considering the Onkyo Integra on an interim basis for a couple of years.)

Then you will realize that if it is all digital and lossless that Mcintosh and other high end pre pro's would sound the same as receivers.
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post #99 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 06:49 PM
 
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Don't you find it funny that Ron C over on audio karma who works for Mcintosh said that because of the way movies are made that better audio codecs like lossless would not make a difference?
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post #100 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Don't you find it funny that Ron C over on audio karma who works for Mcintosh said that because of the way movies are made that better audio codecs like lossless would not make a difference?

He and I have exchanged emails which involved that very topic. That is part of the basis for his reasoning why the MX136 is not obsolete -- if the audio codecs for lossless HD audio are in the player, then they are unnecessary in the pre/pro and thus there is no need at this time for a MX137.

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post #101 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:21 PM
 
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He and I have exchanged emails which involved that very topic. That is part of the basis for his reasoning why the MX136 is not obsolete -- if the audio codecs for lossless HD audio are in the player, then they are unnecessary in the pre/pro and thus there is no need at this time for a MX137.

But the MX136 with HDMI can not do LPCM, right? So you agree that the DSP/DAC system of a player/receiver would make no difference?
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post #102 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:24 PM
 
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http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=141854

Ok so the MX136 can not do LPCM over HDMI which means it can not get a lossless signal from a hi def source. The only aspect then of the MX136 that would be used is the pre amp section and volume control, once again why not simply buy a C45 and save a pile of money?
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post #103 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

A lot of high end companies are saying this because they can not even re badge a product with their own name on it.

Typically, Meridian, Theta, McIntosh and other high end companies are never in a hurry to create new source pieces or digital processors, but they eventually get around to creating nice ones (they typically stay well behind the leading edge and run from the bleeding edge).

I own a MX135! The amp section of a receiver is not going to have a negative effect on the audio. The quality of Mcintosh drops very low when you deal with the DVD players and audio processors. I will agree that their amps are of good quality but that is it. Whay care about resale on something that is going to be replaced/out done by technology every 5 years?

Sorry to hear that since Mc turned around and added HDMI and called it the MX136 and bumped the price two grand -- IMHO, they should have allowed trade-ins that would have amounted to an upgrade for people with the MX135 instead of killing the resale value of your pre/pro. Your point about resale IS one of the issues with which I have been struggling for some time -- I realize that source pieces and processors have a very finite lifespan and are basically disposable -- even Theta could not prevent that with their card cage design. I would never spend thousands for a DVD or high def DVD player -- there is no need to do so. Good quality amps last forever.

No, Mcintosh uses the same DSP and DAC's that everyone else uses.

Agree -- but I was considering their implementation into the overall engineering and incorporation into the piece.

http://www.mds.com/products/product.asp?prod=DAE%2D5

Here is the DSP that the MX135/136 uses and receivers also use this same TI DSP chip. Mcintosh hand makes certain transformers but they also by R core transformers from japan, so what is your point?

Nothing now except I need an Excedrin...

Then you will realize that if it is all digital and lossless that Mcintosh and other high end pre pro's would sound the same as receivers.

Now I am getting a headache -- you are getting close to convincing me of something that I actually knew but since I am left-brained, I like things to match (like all major components) and have liked the Mc appearance for 40+ years. Some concepts are tough to let go--thus my reference to psychoacoustics in a previous posting. Were I into analog stereo, then the preamp and amps would make more difference... thanks guy, now I really am in pain after purchasing three new MC501's...

MikeSp

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post #104 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/sho...d.php?t=141854

Ok so the MX136 can not do LPCM over HDMI which means it can not get a lossless signal from a hi def source. The only aspect then of the MX136 that would be used is the pre amp section and volume control, once again why not simply buy a C45 and save a pile of money?

I read that posting on Audiokarma and was shocked -- even WAS considering a used MX136 from a well-known Mc supplier.

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post #105 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

But the MX136 with HDMI can not do LPCM, right? So you agree that the DSP/DAC system of a player/receiver would make no difference?

Agree... snif, whine

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post #106 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 07:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Mike, BlueRay,

I have no opinion on the points you are raising, however, this is an off topic alert for this thread.

Please take the MC debate to another thread.

Thank you.
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post #107 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Mike, BlueRay,

I have no opinion on the points you are raising, however, this is an off topic alert for this thread.

Please take the MC debate to another thread.

Thank you.

My apologies -- I would delete my inappropriate postings on this thread IF I knew how.

MikeSp

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post #108 of 1049 Old 01-09-2008, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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post #109 of 1049 Old 01-10-2008, 07:47 PM
 
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Mike, BlueRay,

I have no opinion on the points you are raising, however, this is an off topic alert for this thread.

Please take the MC debate to another thread.

Thank you.

Just pointing out the flaws of all processors.
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post #110 of 1049 Old 01-10-2008, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Sim Audio CP-8 added.

Any links -- none on the Web site and none of consequence that I could locate even with Google.

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post #111 of 1049 Old 01-10-2008, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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The only link I have is in post #1 in the CES 2008 section...
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post #112 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Kal Rubinson of Stereophile picked up a copy of the Cary 11a announcement from Cary Audio while at CES 2008. Thanks to Kal for sharing it with us.
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post #113 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 11:13 AM
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I can chime in now that I have had my SSP 200 for a few weeks that LPCM playback is stable..bass is as it should be and the sonics are all Halcro.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #114 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Kal Rubinson of Stereophile picked up a copy of the Cary 11a announcement from Cary Audio while at CES 2008. Thanks to Kal for sharing it with us.

THAT is an impressive unit.
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post #115 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

Kal Rubinson of Stereophile picked up a copy of the Cary 11a announcement from Cary Audio while at CES 2008. Thanks to Kal for sharing it with us.

I'd be seriously considering the Cary 11a, had it not been for the 2 HDMI inputs
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post #116 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Well I have a Lumagen Radiance XD, so 2 HDMI inputs is just perfect for me. And as I understand it the price will be in a similar ballpark as the Cary 11 (higher of course but not outrageously so), so it is the best price/performance I have seen so far.
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post #117 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 01:11 PM
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See if you can try it out first...my experience will low priced processors is a hard edge..

The price is right..but you have to live with the sound.

There are more than a handful of [op amps] that sound so good that most designers want to be using them as opposed to discreet transistors. Dave Reich, Theta 2009
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post #118 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by thebland View Post

See if you can try it out first...my experience will low priced processors is a hard edge..

The price is right..but you have to live with the sound.

cary is pretty sonically sound actually....the Cary Cinema 6 and 11 are excellent, particularly considering their low price point.

But I agree with you, I can't see downgrading from the acoustical signature of my Proceed AVP2 to the cary with only 2 HDMI inputs. I dont want to have the Zektor switch in the mix...when I upgrade, I wanted to be for connectivity as well as sound.

it is slim pickings thus far
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post #119 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I'd be seriously considering the Cary 11a, had it not been for the 2 HDMI inputs

Switches are cheap.

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Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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post #120 of 1049 Old 01-11-2008, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo View Post

I'd be seriously considering the Cary 11a, had it not been for the 2 HDMI inputs

You could aways use the Oppo switcher which is like $90 and that would give you another 3 inputs.

Cary has 6 inputs on the 11v but that would mean you have to buy their new video processor in addition to the 11a pre/pro.
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