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post #61 of 408 Old 04-11-2008, 07:49 AM - Thread Starter
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I thought maybe I had mentioned the PS3's limitations. I have a hunch I may have done so. I will check it out.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #62 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 10:40 AM
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Speaker sensitivity is an important factor in SPL. A brief chart should help indicate the difference between amplifier output power, SPL and speaker sensitivity. Speaker sensitivity is a measure of how much SPL is produced by a speaker with one watt of input power at one meter away.

Amplifier Output Power Speaker Sensitivity SPL (At one meter)
1 watt 85 dB 85 dB
1 watt 90 dB 90 dB
2 watts 85 dB 88 dB
2 watts 90 dB 93 dB
4 watts 85 dB 91 dB
4 watts 90 dB 96 dB

64 watts 85 dB 93 dB
64 watts 90 dB 98 dB

I have 4 ohm Genesis APM1 speakers with a 90 db efficiency rating. Each speaker has a self powered 500 watt subwoofers build in and will go from 20-20,000hz. My surround speakers are 8 ohm modest bookshelf types rated at 60 watt. I have an HGS 18 Velodyn subwoofer hooked up to my receiver pre amp out and set to 120 hz (same for the crossover in the receiver).

My receiver a Sony STR DG 1100 is rated at 100 watt per channel at 8 ohm and 85 watt when set to 4 0hm. (Every other receiver I ever owned increased, not decreased, the power when switching to 4 ohm by at least 50%) I read in some review that the Sony actually only sends 35 watt per channel to surround speakers if all are active.

My thoughts are that because of my self powered sub with its 1250 watt internal amplifier set to 120 hz my surrounds still get all the power they need even at 35 watt. As to my front Genesis they are rated in spite of the subs at only 90 db efficiency and according to the manual can easily handle a 300 watt per channel amplification. I do have a 300 +watt into 4 0hm two channel power amp that I can't use with the Sony because of no pre out inputs.

Here is my question: Would a receiver, like the Yamaha 2700 for example, rated at over 200 watt per channel into 4 ohmsor almost 21/2 times the wattage of what I have now-- produce a noticeable improvement in sound volume or quality over the 85 watt power of the Sony? If not, would hooking up the power amp to the Yamaha produce something noticeable

Thank you to anyone replying.
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post #63 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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The most important question is 'are you hitting your system limitations' a lot ? If not, don't mess with what's working.

I have the 2700. While it's rated 140x7, it can't draw all that power at the same time. So don't expect it to produce 200+ per channel on a continuous basis.

You are probably most interested in dynamic power handling (if you use the system for movies more than music). Movies obviously require the most power when explosions and such are happening. The Yamaha likely outperforms the Sony during those scenes. To what extent, I have no clue.

The 2700 puts out more then enough power for my needs. My speakers are not particularly efficient. And my sub is maybe 100 watts. But I live in an apartment, so my needs are not strenuous.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #64 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 11:58 AM
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Good idea, now if you can just get the people who need it to read it!

On the sound quality of amps, it would be worth making the key points upfront, and clearer and more specific. Yes, amps can sound the same at modest or even typical power and current levels. But I think it's fair to say there's a consensus that there are audible differences in distortion, if you go above the clean power limits of an amp; and differences in bass performance (if you're using the AVR for full range speakers).

"a powered subwoofer which reduces power demands on the AVR." You might add something about reducing the load on the other speakers, too. Subs are worth having a subtitle for, too.

Lossy vs. lossless discussion is unfortunately not very accurate for such a hotly discussed topic; specifically in the explanation of what it does ("throws data away" is pretty loaded and limited description of psychoacoustics), and how codecs compare (DVD encoding isn't necessarily better than other lossy encoding). Better to link to another discussion, it's not really central to this discussion.

If you get in the mood to write more, it might help to add a little on what pre-outs are, and why people use separate components or amps.
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post #65 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 12:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Sound quality is a tough topic to discuss logically, because logic does not necessarily apply to the topic. I have rewritten that section a number of times. I added a link to Rodd Elliott's article on amp specifications which can result in audible differences. I don't personally know of a more scientific treatment of the subject. That should give a nice counterpoint to the Richard Clark challange.

I thought about putting powered subs into a separate section, but this is really an AVR FAQ, not a powered sub FAQ. I do believe I mentioned that powered subs are strongly recommended. I will certainly look at what I had to say on the topic and try to explain it better.

I added the lossy/lossless section due to the high interest in lossless compression with HD DVD and Blu-ray. I reread the section on lossy vs lossless, and it was 100% accurate. I can see where the usage of the phrase throwing away data could be misleading though. I made an attempt to clarify that section. Feel free to re-read it.

I appreciate your feedback, and will look to integrate it into the FAQ. I am often revising it.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #66 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 01:03 PM
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>I thought about putting powered subs into a separate section, but this is really an AVR FAQ, not a powered sub FAQ. I do believe I mentioned that powered subs are strongly recommended. I will certainly look at what I had to say on the topic and try to explain it better.<<br />
Hello Michael,
Many thanks for your superb FAQ post and your reply.

Powered subs are an item that I believe very relevant to any AVR discussion. A powered sub hooked up to the system can have a strong affect on how much power is required from your AVR to drive certain speakers efficiently.

It would be incredibly instructive to have some idea of how much power a sub, that for example can handle frequencies below 80hz, saves the receiver. In other words, hypothetically speaking, how many watts would receiver A need to drive identical speakers as receiver B, at identical db, if A benefits from a powered sub handling anything below 80hz and receiver B is left to his own devices.

With this thought in mind the equation of how much power an AVR needs to drive a particular system would be strongly affected. An explanation here would fit nicely into the power section of your FAQ and would be something I have not seen discussed in any detail before.

Thank you for all your work,

Reno
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post #67 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I recall reading some rough figures on how much power was needed for audio below and above some low frequency. But I don't remember where that was, and I don't know if it was accurate.

I have seen passive subs with efficiencies of 90 dB. If you can produce an SPL of 90 dB with one watt, I wonder why people say so much power is needed for bass ? One possible factor is that content in the LFE channel have a higher level than the other channels. I know they calibrate LFE to be -10 dB, but that doesn't mean every LFE track is 10 dB higher than the other channels.

If I can find any reliable source, I will try to include the info you requested, Reno.

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post #68 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 02:45 PM
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>I recall reading some rough figures on how much power was needed for audio below and above some low frequency. But I don't remember where that was, and I don't know if it was accurate.

I have seen passive subs with efficiencies of 90 dB. If you can produce an SPL of 90 dB with one watt, I wonder why people say so much power is needed for bass ? One possible factor is that content in the LFE channel have a higher level than the other channels. I know they calibrate LFE to be -10 dB, but that doesn't mean every LFE track is 10 dB higher than the other channels.

If I can find any reliable source, I will try to include the info you requested, Reno.<<br />
Hello Michael,

Velodyne believed they needed to put a 1250 watt amp into my HGS 18 sub. My Genesis APM1’s have a 500 watt amplifier, each, to drive the subwoofer section of the speakers. The rest of the Genesis, minus build in sub, appear to do fine with 100 watt of amplification. Without knowing the numbers of powe, relative to frequencies, this does imply that low frequencies require a seriously disproportional amount of power from whatever is driving them.

I hope I’m not the only one who is trying to get a better understanding of this issue.:-)

Thanks,

Reno
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post #69 of 408 Old 04-15-2008, 03:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I have seen it stated many times that bass frequencies require more power than higher frequencies. In spite of that statement, I have often felt that people buy subs with more power than is needed to achieve a flat (reasonably flat anyways) response in their room.

Let's say you are listening to movies at an average SPL of 80 dB. Let's say you get peaks of up to 90 dB. Let's say your bass/LFE would be peaking at 100 dB. (These are made up numbers for discussion purposes, but hopefully realistic.) Let's say your subwoofer is 90 dB efficient. An input of 64 watts should give you 108 dB.

While there may be factors I am unaware of, I don't see the need for powered subs with multiple times the power of your receiver's per channel power. I would think 500 watt powered subs are overkill for most folks.

But feel free to chime in with any details I may have overlooked. I know some people seek a system that can produce so called THX reference levels in their listening space. I could see where you would need quite a bit of power to hit 120 dB peaks.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #70 of 408 Old 04-17-2008, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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I rewrote the section on sound quality (again.)

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #71 of 408 Old 04-21-2008, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

The most important question is 'are you hitting your system limitations' a lot ? If not, don't mess with what's working.

I have the 2700. While it's rated 140x7, it can't draw all that power at the same time. So don't expect it to produce 200+ per channel on a continuous basis.

You are probably most interested in dynamic power handling (if you use the system for movies more than music). Movies obviously require the most power when explosions and such are happening. The Yamaha likely outperforms the Sony during those scenes. To what extent, I have no clue.

The 2700 puts out more then enough power for my needs. My speakers are not particularly efficient. And my sub is maybe 100 watts. But I live in an apartment, so my needs are not strenuous.


IMHO..
Multi-channel music put more demands on an AVR's amplifier/power supply section than a movie with a multi-channel sound track..
Yes a movie may have a high dynamic sound impact but typically it is in a single channel...
Whereas when playing multi-channel surround music there is a constant demand of power output in all channels..

In the higher quality, priced multi-channel AVRs (>$750 SRP) these tend to do better for their all channels driven capability.. Whereas the budget, economy multi-channel AVRs tend to fall short for this specification.. We have found a popular, budget priced multi-channel AVR could put out >100W into a single channel but when all channels are driven the power per channel dropped to 14W/CH..

Just my $0.02..
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post #72 of 408 Old 04-21-2008, 09:11 PM - Thread Starter
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I agree with your points MCode.

It seems there should be some compromise between the misleading single channel driven ratings, and the ACD rating though.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #73 of 408 Old 04-23-2008, 01:58 PM
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One point of clarification, I you will. You refer to the PCM input (for TrueHD and DTS-MA, specifically) as MPCM = Multi-channel PCM. However, in the Blu-Ray player threads, they talk about LPCM = Linear PCM (specifically in relation to the PS3, but other players as well).

In reading through the various definitions (via a google search), it appears that the use of the term "LPCM" is technically incorrect, since that term is supposed to refer to a single, Pulse Code Modulation, channel with no compression.

Since an audio source like TrueHD, is supposed to be (up to) 7.1 channels, shouldn't the PCM output be correctly labeled as MPCM (as opposed to LPCM, as quoted in the PS3 documentation)? This is how you are using the term, I believe.

This can be a continued source of confusion for a lot of users. The AVR terms vs the BD player terms for audio transmission are different. I bring this up because there are 3 ways to get the lossless audio from HD software to the AVR: (1) bitstream (raw audio), (2) converting (encoding?) the bitstream signal on the BD DVD into a MPCM one (and erroneously calling it LPCM), and (3) fully decoded 7.1 channel, or less, analog audio.

Am I "all wet"? Or is my EE/Physics background just getting me confused with the lack of technical precision in the HD player nomenclature?

- Claus {non-Santa model}
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post #74 of 408 Old 04-23-2008, 04:10 PM
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great work Michael, just what I needed. I'm in the market for a HDMI 1.3 a capable receiver with 4 inputs.

Samsung 60 F7500

Denon 3808CI

Sony BDP-S790 3D/Bluray

Harmony 900
 

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post #75 of 408 Old 04-23-2008, 04:45 PM - Thread Starter
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MPCM specifically refers to more than two channel PCM*. This is in contrast to PCM over S/PDIF which is only two channel.

LPCM isn't all that useful of a term, but is often used when talking about PCM over HDMI. It simply means the samples represent a linear curve. As I currently understand it, that's the way it's done on CDs and WAV files. MPCM is slightly more useful, as it implies more than two channels, which is an important distinction for people wanting to send soundtrack audio over HDMI.

* Obviously two is a multiple of one, but multiple is being used in contrast to stereo. And saying 'more than two channel audio' or 'more channels than stereo audio' is awkward.

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post #76 of 408 Old 05-09-2008, 12:04 PM
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How can I tell if my receiver will handle MPCM over HDMI? Will it say that in the user's manual? I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...SX-81TXV?tab=B
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post #77 of 408 Old 05-09-2008, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baconbeard View Post

How can I tell if my receiver will handle MPCM over HDMI? Will it say that in the user's manual? I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-81TXV.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...SX-81TXV?tab=B

Yes, it should be in the user manual under either (or both) LPCM or MPCM.

Most any recent model HDMI AVR's will support MPCM over HDMI.
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post #78 of 408 Old 05-10-2008, 02:13 AM
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thanks to all the contributors for a really informative thread.
ive just been wondering.i need a new avr - my setup is as follows :-
mains: boston vr3 Recommended Amplifier Power :15-250 watts
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m) 93dB

centre : boston vrc Recommended Amplifier Power :15-150 watts
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m) 92dB

sub : boston pv 700 12" 200watt powered subwoofer

surrounds : boston dsi 265 Recommended Amplifier Power :10-90 watts
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m)90db

surround back : boston dsi 255 Recommended Amplifier Power :10-90 watts
Sensitivity (1 watt (2.83v) at 1m) :90db
i use a ps3 and a panasonic 720p lcd projector.
my use is mainly movies and music dvds - not really 2ch stereo
the size of my room is actually quite small -about 4 by 4 metres

What would be a suitable amplifier to achieve adequately loud listening levels.i realise this is subjective but would something like an onkyo 605/6 be sufficient :-
Output at clipping (1 kHz into 8/4 ohms)
1 channel driven: 144/217 W (21.6/23.4 dBW)
5 channels driven (8 ohms): 85 W* (19.3 dBW)*
7 channels driven (8 ohms): 80 W* (19 dBW)*
Distortion at 1 watt (THD+N, 1 kHz)
8/4 ohms: 0.02/0.03%
Noise level (A-wtd): -77.9 dB
Excess noise (with sine tone)
16-bit (EN16): 1 dB
Frequency response: 20 Hz to 20 kHz +0, -0.0 dB

or something like the onkyo 805

175W (2 channels driven, 8Ω,
0.5% THD)
281W (2 channels driven, 4Ω,
0.5% THD)
146W (5 channels driven, 8Ω,
0.5% THD)
207W (5 channels driven, 4Ω,
0.5% THD,)
Fidelity firewall: 162W
(0.05% THD, 8Ω, 1kHz, good)
THD @ 50W: 0.0018% THD
(1kHz, 8Ω, good)
Frequency response: 20Hz-
20kHz +/- 0.06dB (excellent)

i guess what i want to know is apart from the richer feature set would there be a benefit in terms of power/amplification during normal use or would there only be a difference at extreme volume levels?

would the power from the 605/6 be adequate for normal usage?
thanks in advance
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post #79 of 408 Old 05-10-2008, 10:48 PM
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Michael!!!

Your FAQ is absolutely outstanding! I truly appreciate the time you put into this and explain everything! I am (unfortunately ) in the market for and AVR that will compliment my Anthem PVA5 amplifier. My preamp/tuner, NAD T163, bit the dust unexpectedly the other day and I am now in the market for a new one.

I simply loved my NAD.....simple, clean, unaltered sound.....My question is two-fold....

1) since I already have an amplifier that I love (and will have 5.1 sound for the next few years)...are there AVR's that don't have the amplification built in? My terminology is a bit off because I am a little confused on the latest jargon...apologies.

2) I have both component and HDMI running to my InFocus SP 7210....What I am looking for is something that can process the sound from my HD DVR, my PS3 (for bluray and games), and a Toshiba A20 but also "export" that video to my projector while processing the sound for my Paradigm speakers. Is there something out there that will allow me to put 3 HDMIs into the AVR and then push the video to the Projector and the audio would be in the format native to the device sending it? (although my InFocus is only 1080i I would like something that will work with 1080P if I change it out in a couple of years)

Thanks again for the excellent post!!!! If anyone has some suggestions or help on my questions I would be in your debt!

Regards,

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post #80 of 408 Old 05-11-2008, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttboy View Post

Michael!!!

Your FAQ is absolutely outstanding! I truly appreciate the time you put into this and explain everything! I am (unfortunately ) in the market for and AVR that will compliment my Anthem PVA5 amplifier. My preamp/tuner, NAD T163, bit the dust unexpectedly the other day and I am now in the market for a new one.

I simply loved my NAD.....simple, clean, unaltered sound.....My question is two-fold....

1) since I already have an amplifier that I love (and will have 5.1 sound for the next few years)...are there AVR's that don't have the amplification built in? My terminology is a bit off because I am a little confused on the latest jargon...apologies.

2) I have both component and HDMI running to my InFocus SP 7210....What I am looking for is something that can process the sound from my HD DVR, my PS3 (for bluray and games), and a Toshiba A20 but also "export" that video to my projector while processing the sound for my Paradigm speakers. Is there something out there that will allow me to put 3 HDMIs into the AVR and then push the video to the Projector and the audio would be in the format native to the device sending it? (although my InFocus is only 1080i I would like something that will work with 1080P if I change it out in a couple of years)

Thanks again for the excellent post!!!! If anyone has some suggestions or help on my questions I would be in your debt!

Regards,


Most any current HDMI enabled AVR will suit you fine. Just look for features like
- 1080p pass through and upconversion
- HDMI audio support (pretty standard these days)
- HD Audio decoding onboard (not absolutely necessary, but nice to have)
- number of HDMI inputs needed

Being used as a pre-amp your AVR could be relatively low power as you already have an amp. I've never done a separate amp so I have no idea what connections you would require (guessing analog outs x6 for a 5.1 setup like yours).

One thing to study up on with any AVR passing HDMI video is making sure the video is passed "truly unmodified". Many consumers are finding that the HDMI outputs from many AVR mfr's are "clipping" the HDMI video by not passing the full RGB color range (blacker than black, whiter than white). This could be of considerable concern to you using a projector.
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post #81 of 408 Old 05-11-2008, 09:16 AM
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Thank you Toby10!

I was up researching posts til 3am last night and have learned a great deal! I have been out of the AV research for a few years....mainly because what I had worked! I find it amazing how technology changes (I think it moves faster in the AV realm over the past 5 years than computers).

I think I have narrowed it down to the Integra DTC 9.8 (I had an Integra DVD I got 5 years ago and liked it) OR an NAD T175.

Regards!

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post #82 of 408 Old 06-03-2008, 09:23 PM
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I want a surround sound system without the video switching part, but this doesn’t seem to exist. Any help would be appreciated.

I’m upgrading in the near future to an HDTV. I’ll pull the trigger when Verizon can add TV to my Fios. I’ll probable get a Samsung LN46A650 and add a bluray player down the road. I know the TV has an optical sound output and I’m sure the Fios box and blueray will as well, so why would I want to cram all my video through extra cables, a video scalar of unknown quality, and a switch? Also, the wife likes to use TV speakers and gets mad when things are hard to work.

Thanks
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post #83 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 02:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dgolde View Post

I want a surround sound system without the video switching part, but this doesn’t seem to exist. Any help would be appreciated.

I’m upgrading in the near future to an HDTV. I’ll pull the trigger when Verizon can add TV to my Fios. I’ll probable get a Samsung LN46A650 and add a bluray player down the road. I know the TV has an optical sound output and I’m sure the Fios box and blueray will as well, so why would I want to cram all my video through extra cables, a video scalar of unknown quality, and a switch? Also, the wife likes to use TV speakers and gets mad when things are hard to work.

Thanks

Actually, most people find using an AVR for audio & video reduces cables and clutter. One, single, simple HDMI cable sending audio & video from the AVR to your TV from many different sources (DVD, DVR, cable box, vcr, etc.. ).

That said, based on your requirements just ignore the video portions of the AVR specs and concentrate on the features and specs that you do care about. But I'd bet at some point in the future you will find the video aspects of your new AVR quite handy.

Optical won't pass the HD audio from Blu-ray sources so you'll probably want to use a single HDMI run to your AVR.
Your alternative is:
- Component Video (3 cables)
- Analog Audio (6 cables minimum)

One HDMI? Or 9 analog cables? This is why many do like the idea of an audio/video HUB using their AVR.
But if you don't plan on having a 5.1 surround setup and just use the TV speakers then optical will work for the basic Dolby audio.
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post #84 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 07:37 AM - Thread Starter
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With HDMI becoming more standard, using your AVR for AV switching makes sense.

Maybe some higher end players will come with two HDMI outputs in the future; one for audio, one for video. For now though, it's impractical to split the two. The downside, as I see it, is that you can't customize video settings when using your AVR as a video switcher. Perhaps digital video needs customized video settings less than analog did? I don't know.

"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #85 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 07:46 AM
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I don't know if this is the right place, but i have a question regarding my reciever. I have a non HDMI Denon AVR-1306 and it came with speakers and a sub. I have never really set it up properly, i have chanelled in the distances etc but have distanced myself from the things i was confused about.

I have been doing research on sound setups but i am confused in terms of crossovers.

My reciever by default has the crossover as 180hz and I kept this setting for about a year. I have been reading that a crossover of 80-120hz is more ideal, but i really don't know which crossover is right for my setup. All the speakers are small and are not able to provide bass.

Any help for which crossover should be selected would be appreciated
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post #86 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

With HDMI becoming more standard, using your AVR for AV switching makes sense.

Maybe some higher end players will come with two HDMI outputs in the future; one for audio, one for video. For now though, it's impractical to split the two. The downside, as I see it, is that you can't customize video settings when using your AVR as a video switcher. Perhaps digital video needs customized video settings less than analog did? I don't know.

Hey there Michael.

What do you mean by "customize video"?

The other draw back to using the AVR for any/all video switching is that there are many instances where having the AVR powered up is overkill. Example: watching sitcoms, news, SD cable, etc... it's kinda silly to have a 140 watt x 7 ch amp powered up for such shows. I'd guess most people would run two feeds from a cable box. HDMI or Component to the AVR and then run Component or Composite or S-video direct to TV for non AVR use (and simpler for wife to operate )
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post #87 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genkai Haretsu View Post

I don't know if this is the right place, but i have a question regarding my reciever. I have a non HDMI Denon AVR-1306 and it came with speakers and a sub. I have never really set it up properly, i have chanelled in the distances etc but have distanced myself from the things i was confused about.

I have been doing research on sound setups but i am confused in terms of crossovers.

My reciever by default has the crossover as 180hz and I kept this setting for about a year. I have been reading that a crossover of 80-120hz is more ideal, but i really don't know which crossover is right for my setup. All the speakers are small and are not able to provide bass.

Any help for which crossover should be selected would be appreciated

I'm guessing this Denon is a HTIB system? It did not include a sub?
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post #88 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 09:13 AM
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No it was a reciever/speaker set. No dvd player. It came with the reciever, the speakers and the sub.
Its this:

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...roduct_ID/3553
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post #89 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genkai Haretsu View Post

No it was a reciever/speaker set. No dvd player. It came with the reciever, the speakers and the sub.
Its this:

http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/p...roduct_ID/3553

Yeah, that's a HTIB, without a DVD. You will want to read the sub and speaker specs. Your cross over should be at (or near) the TOP on of the sub and the BOTTOM end of the speakers.

Ex: if the sub is rated from 50hz to 160hz and speakers are rated from 160hz to 20khz, then your cross over should be at (or near) 160hz.

If it came as a set (speakers, sub, receiver) and it had a preset cross over at 180hz, that's probably right where it should be.

Edit: your sub is rated at 30hz to 200hz, so as expected, your receivers default of a 180hz cross over sounds correct. You can always adjust to your liking as room acoustics and spaker/sub placement make a difference. But I think if you drop that cross over too far down those little sat speakers will really struggle. Try it and see where you like the cross over.
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post #90 of 408 Old 06-04-2008, 09:31 AM
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Thanks, yeah i shall leave it at 180 and maybe have a bit of a mess around with it to see what i like best. Thanks.
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