Marantz AV8003 and MM8003 - Page 12 - AVS Forum
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post #331 of 3466 Old 05-04-2008, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

Squeezeboxes are nice; I have two myself, but for this project I want to get video too, and maybe free up one of my squeezers for another place in the house.

Sure, but watch out for the transcoding from FLAC to WMA or WAV, just make sure you have a processor sufficient to handle the load.

As to what formats the AV8003 handles, follow the bouncing assumptions...

Assume the TVIX software/card as posted earlier was selected to integrate for the media player by Marantz.
Marantz stated the media player is not supporting FLAC - that rules out the HD media players as the integration base since they all support FLAC.

This leaves the M-3100U, and C-2000U, both 1st gen non-HD players. Formats supported are up to 1080i using component, but not clearly spelled out:

Video:AVI(3.x, 4.x, 5.x, Xvid), MPG, DAT, VOB, .IFO, ISO
Music:MP3, Ogg Vorbis, WMA, Multi channel digital audio

Notice that the formats are all lossy on the audio side (depending on what multi-channel audio means - on the 2000 it says DTS passthrough so I suspect that is it).

I tried to check the manual for video format resolutions, but their ftp server is too slow.

Compare this codec list to the TVIX HD media players which all support FLAC and lossless audio and MPEG 4 AVC/H2.64 and VC1 video with HDMI output.

If this is correct, and you want lossless audio, I would expect to connect an SB3 to it via S/PDIF.

Also if correct, it does not support the latest HD video codecs, which is unfortunate as there is considerable advantage in using H.264 when building an HD DVR. So if you want HD DVR playback, this would not really do the job. It is of course fine for ripped SD DVD playback.

From my perspective, again if the assumptions are correct, I would likely continue to use a separate audio and video player to get lossless audio and HD video codecs.

An SD video player & lossly audio player would not be a great feature match to an HD HBR SSP, but is probably a better fit to their price point.

All of this, of course, may be incorrect, so we will just have to await Marantz formal announcement of specs to know for sure.
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post #332 of 3466 Old 05-04-2008, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

From my perspective, again if the assumptions are correct, I would likely continue to use a separate audio and video player to get lossless audio and HD video codecs.

Interesting investigation. I don't have immediate plans for serving up HD video, more likely it will be DVD rips that I'll be playing. Lossy audio is a bit more problematical for me. My current HT doubles as a 2 channel system with a Krell integrated amp with HT passthrough which is fed by a Squeezebox -> Lavry DA-10 -> Krell. This is a pretty high quality setup. It could work out that the Marantz media server won't work out as a replacement for that.

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post #333 of 3466 Old 05-05-2008, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDThomsen View Post

I'm seriously considering the AV8003 and MM8003 as replacements for my very old Sony setup (TA-E80ES and TA-N80ES) with a surround system (talk about being late to the game).
Due to the design of my living room I'm unable to use a center speaker (I have a projector screen hanging between adjoining rooms), and I would therefore like to use the 8 channels of the MM8003 for bi-amping my front speakers (Infinity Renaissance 90) and using the other 4 channels for surround and surround back speakers.

My question is whether this is possible with AV8003/MM8003?

That should not be any problem. You just say you don't have a center speaker, and it automaticly sends the center channel to the two fronts.

But a real center speaker is one of the most important pieces of a home theater setup. How about mounting one in the celling?
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post #334 of 3466 Old 05-06-2008, 12:19 PM
 
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You can bi-amp with the MM8003.

Richard
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post #335 of 3466 Old 05-06-2008, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

If this is correct, and you want lossless audio, I would expect to connect an SB3 to it via S/PDIF.

Wow...after trying to digest Eric's post, I realize I've got a lot further to climb on the media server learning curve than I thought.

However, just for us noobs out here...we're saying that it appears it will be possible to use a server to play lossless audio files such as FLAC? (BTW, I take it than an "SB3 is a Squeezebox unit?)

If so, would there be any audio degradation or other disadvantage by having to connect via S/PDIF?

My interests in the Marantz AV8003 includes the hope for decent two channel music. I realize that many use a separate pre-amp with a HT bi-pass, but I'm hoping the front end of the Marantz unit may be good enough that I won't need to go this route...at least for awhile.

The idea of serving up totally lossless audio rather than plopping in a CD or spinning some vinyl appeals greatly to me. From what I gather so far, this will be a possiblity with this unit and perhaps a Squeezbox?
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post #336 of 3466 Old 05-06-2008, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post

Wow...after trying to digest Eric's post, I realize I've got a lot further to climb on the media server learning curve than I thought.

However, just for us noobs out here...we're saying that it appears it will be possible to use a server to play lossless audio files such as FLAC? (BTW, I take it than an "SB3 is a Squeezebox unit?)

If so, would there be any audio degradation or other disadvantage by having to connect via S/PDIF?

My interests in the Marantz AV8003 includes the hope for decent two channel music. I realize that many use a separate pre-amp with a HT bi-pass, but I'm hoping the front end of the Marantz unit may be good enough that I won't need to go this route...at least for awhile.

The idea of serving up totally lossless audio rather than plopping in a CD or spinning some vinyl appeals greatly to me. From what I gather so far, this will be a possiblity with this unit and perhaps a Squeezbox?

I'm in the same boat as you Shutterman. I currently use a Yamaha CDR-1300HDD and couldn't go back to changing CDs again. I'm also hoping for decent 2ch performance from this unit

I'm hoping to go the NAS route with the 8003
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post #337 of 3466 Old 05-06-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post

The idea of serving up totally lossless audio rather than plopping in a CD or spinning some vinyl appeals greatly to me. From what I gather so far, this will be a possiblity with this unit and perhaps a Squeezbox?

Yes, if you get a squeezebox and set up your FLAC music collection on a PC you will be able to serve it to the Marantz via S/PDIF. Any receiver with a S/PDIF input would be able to handle that.

The disadvantage is that you will have to buy a squeezebox.

There are other media servers on the market as well that would offer similar features.

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post #338 of 3466 Old 05-06-2008, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post

we're saying that it appears it will be possible to use a server to play lossless audio files such as FLAC? (BTW, I take it than an "SB3 is a Squeezebox unit?)

If so, would there be any audio degradation or other disadvantage by having to connect via S/PDIF?

My interests in the Marantz AV8003 includes the hope for decent two channel music. I realize that many use a separate pre-amp with a HT bi-pass, but I'm hoping the front end of the Marantz unit may be good enough that I won't need to go this route...at least for awhile.

The idea of serving up totally lossless audio rather than plopping in a CD or spinning some vinyl appeals greatly to me. From what I gather so far, this will be a possiblity with this unit and perhaps a Squeezbox?

I appreciate this gets confusing. Assuming you are only using ripped material on a PC (or NAS) music server, there are three ways to wire this up:
  1. PC --network--> Media Player --analog--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
  2. PC --network--> media Player --S/PDIF--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
  3. PC --network--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
In option (1) the MP is doing the D to A. So the MP's DACs are being used. Then the AV8003 pre/pro does a passthrough of analog. This is using the "preamp" function of the AV8003, or sometimes called "pure direct".

In option (2) the MP is decoding from FLAC to PCM, i.e. simply passing bits to the AV8003, which does the D to A conversion. So the AV8003 DACs are being used.

In option (3) the MP is integrated, and the AV8003 DACs are also being used.

The statement is that the AV8003 does not support FLAC, so you can't use option (3) with the music on the PC in FLAC format. This option is believed to only support lossy music formats.

So you have to use either option (1) or (2) if you want FLAC support. The Slim Devices (aka Logitech) Squeezebox 3 (SB3) is one relatively low cost media player which supports FLAC lossless. Which one of these 2 options you use is a matter of personal preference. On the assumption the analog stage of the AV8003 is better than the SB3 analog stage, option (2) might be preferred, but you can try both and see. Some would argue you won't hear a difference.

Clear as mud?
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post #339 of 3466 Old 05-07-2008, 04:23 AM
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Any word from Marantz regarding the DTS-HD MA bitstream audio bomb??

Along with other manufacturers, at least one Marantz receiver was reported to have this problem. It looks like some of the manufacturers are starting to deliver firmware updates to fix the problem. I haven't heard much regarding Marantz's response to this.

Given the severity of the problem, it important for me to know that the AV8003 either doesn't have the problem (different chips) or that it already includes the updated firmware.

Thanks,

Wyatt
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post #340 of 3466 Old 05-07-2008, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

So you have to use either option (1) or (2) if you want FLAC support. The Slim Devices (aka Logitech) Squeezebox 3 (SB3) is one relatively low cost media player which supports FLAC lossless. Which one of these 2 options you use is a matter of personal preference. On the assumption the analog stage of the AV8003 is better than the SB3 analog stage, option (2) might be preferred, but you can try both and see. Some would argue you won't hear a difference.

I've done some comparisons of the SB3 options, particularly choices 1 and 2. I think that it is possible to hear a difference if you have a very high quality system downstream of the squeezebox and state of the art recordings. I have the following two setups in my home:

1. SB3 -> Lavry DA-10 -> Krell KAV400XI (integrated amp) -> Revel F-52
2. SB3 -> Onkyo 9555 -> Revel M-22

System 1 is in a living room with decent acoustics and speaker placement. System 2 is in a bedroom with less than ideal speaker placement.

I found that adding the Lavry DA-10 to system 1 resulted in a definite improvement in the definition or realism of the sound on top quality recordings. When I tried out the DA-10 in system 2 I was not able to detect a difference.

In both cases the sound quality is very good. I think for most systems with most recordings you will not be able to hear a difference.

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post #341 of 3466 Old 05-07-2008, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyliec2 View Post


Given the severity of the problem, it important for me to know that the AV8003 either doesn't have the problem (different chips) or that it already includes the updated firmware.

Thanks,

+1

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post #342 of 3466 Old 05-07-2008, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

I've done some comparisons of the SB3 options, particularly choices 1 and 2. I think that it is possible to hear a difference if you have a very high quality system downstream of the squeezebox and state of the art recordings. I have the following two setups in my home:

1. SB3 -> Lavry DA-10 -> Krell KAV400XI (integrated amp) -> Revel F-52
2. SB3 -> Onkyo 9555 -> Revel M-22

System 1 is in a living room with decent acoustics and speaker placement. System 2 is in a bedroom with less than ideal speaker placement.

I found that adding the Lavry DA-10 to system 1 resulted in a definite improvement in the definition or realism of the sound on top quality recordings. When I tried out the DA-10 in system 2 I was not able to detect a difference.

In both cases the sound quality is very good. I think for most systems with most recordings you will not be able to hear a difference.

Obviously depends on the system, but I have an SB3 feeding into a Theta Casasnova, then into Krell, and into Thiel 7.2s.

I tried both analog and digital connections, and I'd say on most jazz/classical/folk/older rock I can tell the difference with the Theta's DACs winning. Recent pop music might be different.

For those looking to use lossless, two additional caveat's:

- like the Marantz (apparently), not all media extenders support lossless

- lossless over a marginal wifi connection can have problems

Having said all that, I can't say that I can tell the difference between a lossless rip, and the original CD, if both are using the same DAC in the Theta. And the convience/WAF is huge!

eric

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post #343 of 3466 Old 05-07-2008, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post


My interests in the Marantz AV8003 includes the hope for decent two channel music. I realize that many use a separate pre-amp with a HT bi-pass, but I'm hoping the front end of the Marantz unit may be good enough that I won't need to go this route...at least for awhile.

Compared to what though? I'm sure it will be as good or better than any receiver under its price range. But is that still good enough? We'll see.
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post #344 of 3466 Old 05-08-2008, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Carroll View Post

I appreciate this gets confusing. Assuming you are only using ripped material on a PC (or NAS) music server, there are three ways to wire this up:
  1. PC --network--> Media Player --analog--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
  2. PC --network--> media Player --S/PDIF--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
  3. PC --network--> AV8003 --analog--> amp
In option (1) the MP is doing the D to A. So the MP's DACs are being used. Then the AV8003 pre/pro does a passthrough of analog. This is using the "preamp" function of the AV8003, or sometimes called "pure direct".

In option (2) the MP is decoding from FLAC to PCM, i.e. simply passing bits to the AV8003, which does the D to A conversion. So the AV8003 DACs are being used.

In option (3) the MP is integrated, and the AV8003 DACs are also being used.

The statement is that the AV8003 does not support FLAC, so you can't use option (3) with the music on the PC in FLAC format. This option is believed to only support lossy music formats.

So you have to use either option (1) or (2) if you want FLAC support. The Slim Devices (aka Logitech) Squeezebox 3 (SB3) is one relatively low cost media player which supports FLAC lossless. Which one of these 2 options you use is a matter of personal preference. On the assumption the analog stage of the AV8003 is better than the SB3 analog stage, option (2) might be preferred, but you can try both and see. Some would argue you won't hear a difference.

Clear as mud?

Outstanding explanation (again) Eric. I've found some of your other posts equally helpful on other HT aspects. You definately have a technical writing talent.

If one wishes to use the (presumably) higher quality DACs of the AV8003 to do the D to A, it would seem option (2) might be the best way to go? Or is there a similar quality concern with the decoding process from FLAC to PCM? That is, just as certain DACs are reportedly better than other DACs, are certain "decoder chips" (if that's the right term) better than others?

If the answer is no, then it would seem there shouldn't be any quality difference between option (2) and option (3)?
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post #345 of 3466 Old 05-08-2008, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post

Outstanding explanation (again) Eric. I've found some of your other posts equally helpful on other HT aspects. You definately have a technical writing talent.

If one wishes to use the (presumably) higher quality DACs of the AV8003 to do the D to A, it would seem option (2) might be the best way to go? Or is there a similar quality concern with the decoding process from FLAC to PCM? That is, just as certain DACs are reportedly better than other DACs, are certain "decoder chips" (if that's the right term) better than others?

If the answer is no, then it would seem there shouldn't be any quality difference between option (2) and option (3)?

Sending FLAC via your network should be completely transparent assuming that you don't have network issues. It's a pure digital operation with no conversion of the actual data. If you are using WiFi network issues are reasonably likely so you need to check out how good your connection is. The Squeezebox includes some testing capabilities that can be useful.

The difference between options 2 and 3 are that the Marantz doesn't appear to accept lossless formats like FLAC so there is a step required to transcode to a lossy format. If you choose a high enough bit rate for this step 2 & 3 should sound the same.

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post #346 of 3466 Old 05-09-2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

The difference between options 2 and 3 are that the Marantz doesn't appear to accept lossless formats like FLAC so there is a step required to transcode to a lossy format. If you choose a high enough bit rate for this step 2 & 3 should sound the same.

Thanks, EH. However, it still does seem such a shame that Marantz didn't take it the final step of the way by supporting FLAC media files. With more places such as Linn Records ,for example, making lossless FLAC files at high bit rates available, it's unfortunate that we have to introduce another "box" in the chain to be able to take full advantage of them.
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post #347 of 3466 Old 05-10-2008, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shutterman View Post

Thanks, EH. However, it still does seem such a shame that Marantz didn't take it the final step of the way by supporting FLAC media files. With more places such as Linn Records ,for example, making lossless FLAC files at high bit rates available, it's unfortunate that we have to introduce another "box" in the chain to be able to take full advantage of them.

I am pretty sure 96KHz FLACs are not supported by a Squeezebox 3, you might have to try something else if that is what you are looking to do.

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post #348 of 3466 Old 05-10-2008, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dakar80124 View Post

Compared to what though? I'm sure it will be as good or better than any receiver under its price range. But is that still good enough? We'll see.

I wonder how it stacks up against the Integra 9.8/Onkyo Pro 885.
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post #349 of 3466 Old 05-10-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

I am pretty sure 96KHz FLACs are not supported by a Squeezebox 3, you might have to try something else if that is what you are looking to do.

you are correct it can't output 24/96 just up to 48.
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post #350 of 3466 Old 05-10-2008, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

I am pretty sure 96KHz FLACs are not supported by a Squeezebox 3, you might have to try something else if that is what you are looking to do.


You can always use the new opus melody 4 that is coming out. It does Flac and can output 24/96. the DAC in this might be better or worse than the Marantz. no way to tell yet. and no idea what dac's are in the opus piece. they won't give it up.

i personally use a benchmark USB DAC into my marantz 8002 right now taking files from my macbook pro. i tried the tos out on the mac but didn't like it hence the benchmark ubs. it's DAC's are great to my ears. lots of good reviews too. it also accepts 24/96 also and upsamples EVERYTHING to 110 there are no choices. no matter what you feed it it comes out at 110.
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post #351 of 3466 Old 05-11-2008, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post

You can always use the new opus melody 4 that is coming out. It does Flac and can output 24/96. the DAC in this might be better or worse than the Marantz.

A new media player it is going to have to support streaming HD video to get me to open my checkbook. I recently took a look at the Netgear EVO8000, but that requires a server running Windows XP. That requirement is a killer for me. The only time I tolerate Windows is when I am at work. I hate Microsoft with a passion and will not give them one nickel of my money.

96KHz Flacs are interesting, but aren't going to get me to replace my SB3, and the Marantz looks like it will already support streaming DVD rips.

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post #352 of 3466 Old 05-11-2008, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimim View Post

You can always use the new opus melody 4 that is coming out. It does Flac and can output 24/96. the DAC in this might be better or worse than the Marantz. no way to tell yet. and no idea what dac's are in the opus piece. they won't give it up.

Thanks...looks sweet. Not exactly cheap, but if it can deliver on it's promises it might be worthwhile.

Seems they are available now for order from Olive (the manufacturer). Looks like they are a direct sales only company. The fact that they offer free CD ripping service with a purchase of the unit adds a bit of value as well.
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post #353 of 3466 Old 05-12-2008, 06:14 PM
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Richard, any news on SPEC ?
Thanks
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post #354 of 3466 Old 05-13-2008, 07:23 AM
 
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I'm checking on it. Asked about the manual too.

Richard
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post #355 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 02:12 AM
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Richard,

Once you have the Spec and the user manual will you post them on this site for downloading?

Regards Patrik
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post #356 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 08:46 AM
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Richard,

Sorry we're peppering you with all these questions, but I'm wondering if you've heard anything that would indicate the "speculated" release date on these units is going to be pushed back?

The reason I ask is that it seems the whole industry is waiting on the many-times delayed release of the Cirrus chip that allows for decoding of Dolby True HD and DTS-MA.

According to another A/V manufactuer's support forum, they were expecting to have had the chips available in April in order to meet a June product release date. However, here it is the middle of May and apparently the chips still haven't been released.

I understand Marantz has considerably more resources available than the small individual manufacturer, but it would seem if they are planning on using the Cirrus chip (and I have no idea if they are) a June release date might be a bit optimistic?

I realize that until a manufacturer formally announces a release date, everything else is just speculation. However, I am curious if any of your contacts have given any indication that we might be looking at the later part of the summer rather than the earlier part?

-Thanks
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post #357 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 02:48 PM
 
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I havent' heard anything to that effect from Marantz, though from many other companies.

The manual should be ready and online in about a week if everything goes well. If I get an advanced copy of specs or the manual it will be so with them knowing my intent to post it here. (They already know anyway).

Richard
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post #358 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 03:09 PM
 
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The answer is that no, they are not waiting for those chips from Cirrus Logic.

More info soon.

Richard
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post #359 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVSRichard View Post

The answer is that no, they are not waiting for those chips from Cirrus Logic.

More info soon.

Richard

Thanks Richard, that is good news.

"Nature Abhors a Vacuum Tube" -  J. R. Pierce
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post #360 of 3466 Old 05-14-2008, 04:04 PM
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Thanks Richard, that is good news.

Yes, these days it's a minor miracle when AV gear is released as planned.
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