Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 118 - AVS Forum
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post #3511 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Got any before and after graphs? I'm curious if Jeff went for a "room curve" or flat response as his target?

He used an SMPTE-222M house curve which has a very gradual rise starting at ~55hz and below. Jeff can elaborate on SMPTE-222M house curve as it was a new subject for me. End result, fantastic! He also did some serious eq'ing on my center channel which produced incredible results for dialog. I'll post some results from the file he sent me..


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post #3512 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post


He used an SMPTE-222M house curve which has a very gradual rise starting at ~55hz and below. Jeff can elaborate on SMPTE-222M house curve as it was a new subject for me. End result, fantastic! He also did some serious eq'ing on my center channel which produced incredible results for dialog. I'll post some results from the file he sent me..

That is not the 222M variant I am using. I target flat from 30Hz to 2kHz and down linearly from 2kHz to 20kHz to -6bd at 20kHz and to client preference from 20Hz to 30Hz depending on system capabilty and typical volume level. This is then fine tuned by ear with various source material.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #3513 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Tclient preference from 20Hz to 30Hz depending on system capabilty and typical volume level. This is then fine tuned by ear with various source material.

Yep - sorry.. browsed over the chart again quickly.. gradual rise is staring at ~35hz. Hard to read when the chart shows the entire spectrum (20hz - 20khz)


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post #3514 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

That is not the 222M variant I am using. I target flat from 30Hz to 2kHz and down linearly from 2kHz to 20kHz to -6bd at 20kHz and to client preference from 20Hz to 30Hz depending on system capabilty and typical volume level. This is then fine tuned by ear with various source material.

I typically shoot for +6 to +8dB at 30Hz, with a linear slope down to 100Hz, flat through the midrange and the same target you use for HF. I find that flat bass sounds anemic. At one time I thought this may be do to listening at lower than reference level, but even close to reference, I still find that +6dB gives the most balanced sound.

As it turns out, the target I've chosen by ear, is pretty much identical to the target chosen by Harman for their JBL Synthesis system (thanks to Roger D. pointing this out).

See page 25 of the JBL Synthesis EQ manual for a visual of the curve:
http://manuals.harman.com/JBL/HOM/Ow.../SDEC%20OM.pdf

Sean Olive of Harman also claims that in blind listening tests of various auto-EQ's, bass lift in the target is preferred.

Can you elaborate on why you find flat response from 30Hz to 2KHz is desirable. I admit that I have very limited knowledge of the science behind the SMPTE-222M curve.

- Tim


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post #3515 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 01:37 PM
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Base in music and dialog is exagerted if you target elevated levels above 30Hz in bass range with accurate gear.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #3516 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 04:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

Base in music and dialog is exagerted if you target elevated levels above 30Hz in bass range with accurate gear.

That has not been my experience with my own in-room measures and EQ. And at least according to some trusted sources, a gradual elevation in bass level is needed to provide a sound that is perceived to be balanced.

In the Sean Olive "The Subjective and Objective Evaluation of Room Correction Products" I referred to in my last post, he found this:


And this:


Full test results here:
https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=...ZTUxMGQ4&hl=en

Similarly, on page 25 of the JBL Synthesis EQ manual they talk about the need for LF boost in the target because it is accounted for in during the recording process:
"Room boundaries (walls, ceiling and floor) tend to contain low-frequency energy within the room. Simply stated, this results in a boost in low-frequency energy. This is true whether it is a speaker or a piano producing the sound. The exact frequency at which this effect begins and the amount of boost realized are a function of the room size, shape and wall construction. No two spaces are ever exactly alike. This same low-frequency enhancement also occurs in recording studios, and the recording engineers know this will occur during playback. They balance their recordings in anticipation of this. Therefore, it would be wrong to flatten the speaker system response in the playback environment. To do so only results in a thin bass sound.

By surveying many listening rooms over the years, JBL engineers have established a low-frequency response characteristic that delivers the most consistently satisfactory results. This has been confirmed through extensive subjective evaluation tests."


This is the target they are referring to:


"The Synthesis target curves are derived from data collected in many typical installations. They represent a trend of what should be expected, not a specific shape that must be achieved for good sound."

Audyssey uses a target curve that is supposedly flat from 4KHz down to 20Hz, but I think even they may have changed their target recently based on my own measured results of the EQ's response and the posting of several others over on Hometheatershack.com.

- Tim


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post #3517 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 05:21 PM
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Interesting. Doesn't THX have a very different approach? I think they still believe in a flat measured response to 20hz. Regardless, I'm a believer of house curves and perceived flat response. I've never heard a system eq'd using the above target curve. Almost seems too aggressive for the rise to start at 100hz. I'm extremely happy with they way it's currently eq'd. I don't think I can expect anything more with my current room conditions.

Jeff - feel free to provide some feedback on what you heard post calibration with my Classe/Triad Platinum combination. No worries, I will not be insulted by any criticism.


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post #3518 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 06:27 PM
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With DSP room correction it is customary, some would say ideal, to have a rising response in the bass and a falling response in the treble. A totally flat response could be perceived has being too bass shy and too treble aggressive. The JBL graph above is not representative of an ideal curve because it is too hot on the low end but the point OCD is trying to illustrate is valid. I agree with UMR though that the more accurate the equipment the less compensation that needs to be made so each case may vary. In my experience the most natural response can only be achieved with conventional room treatments for the mid-band and up. Since the first four octaves (usually below 250Hz) are much harder to tame conventionally I find DSP duties limited to these frequencies to be the best overall approach.

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post #3519 of 5884 Old 10-17-2010, 11:33 PM
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Quote:


A totally flat response could be perceived has being too bass shy and too treble aggressive.

Yes, this is both what I've read and the reality of things in my personal experience with system tuning.

Quote:


I agree with UMR though that the more accurate the equipment the less compensation that needs to be made so each case may vary.

While you both make reference to "accurate gear" I believe you two are saying completely different things.

UMR said, "Bass in music and dialog is exaggerated if you target elevated levels above 30Hz in bass range with accurate gear."

If you take accurate speakers with flat anechoic response and place them in a room, due to LF room gain, you will end up with an in-room response that follows the general trend of the JBL target curve I referenced (more or less depending on the specific dimensions of the room). So with a target curve that has elevated bass, I agree that it should take less EQ work to get an accurate speaker to meet the target. Whereas UMR is saying that his target is to remove the room gain (flat response from 30Hz to 2Kz), which will require more aggressive use of EQ to reach the target in most rooms.

Quote:


In my experience the most natural response can only be achieved with conventional room treatments for the mid-band and up. Since the first four octaves (usually below 250Hz) are much harder to tame conventionally I find DSP duties limited to these frequencies to be the best overall approach.

Agreed.

- Tim


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post #3520 of 5884 Old 10-18-2010, 12:03 AM
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I should also mention that last weekend I spent a few hours over at 7ryder's place calibrating his system / Classe SSP-800 EQ using REW. My LF target was +8dB @ 30Hz, ramping up gradually from about 100Hz. Verified with my reference music, the bass level was subjectively balanced with this target. Hopefully he can chime in on how the bass balance sounds now that he's been living with the system calibrated this way for a while.

Roger Dressler and I have also discussed this matter privately and his low bass is a minimum of +5dB over the midrange level.

- Tim


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post #3521 of 5884 Old 10-18-2010, 03:48 AM
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My experience is deviating from SMPTE is generally a mistake. Anyone can do what they want of course. These are the standards used to setup the mix rooms. Any deviation from this a preference and not what is heard in the rerecording mix theater. I find following SMPTE replicates this experience better than any other method which is what they were designed to do.

I find accurate speakers like Sonus Faber Elipsa, Aerial 20T, Eben X5 and the VS VR11 for example naturally follow the 222M varient I am suggesting without any EQ.

W. Jeff Meier


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post #3522 of 5884 Old 10-18-2010, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Roger Dressler and I have also discussed this matter privately and his low bass is a minimum of +5dB over the midrange level.

My house curve does resemble the Harman in that it tilts up the bass at the same point. I kept the slope going to a lower frequency, which seems fine considering my relatively low playback levels. It was quite coincidental, though, as I fiddled in isolation before seeing their curve--or mine. I used BassQ, XTZ and REW to dial out the response variations, then dialed in bass EQ by ear. I know it is not correct nor perfect--but for the majority of my recordings, of all genres, it sounds right. Based on the rather stark differences among recordings, there does not seem to be universal agreement on spectral balance either, which has shifted as recording and delivery technology evolved.

Quote:
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My experience is deviating from SMPTE is generally a mistake. Anyone can do what they want of course. These are the standards used to setup the mix rooms. Any deviation from this a preference and not what is heard in the rerecording mix theater. I find following SMPTE replicates this experience better than any other method which is what they were designed to do.

I've heard plenty of music in Dolby's well calibrated theaters (they had a large part in defining the SMPTE specs), and it's not anything I'd want to live with in my home theater. Movies sound fine in those theaters, but they still sound like big PA systems in tonal character--a bit forward through the midrange, among other deficiencies. Just not my cup of tea. I don't like hearing any portion of the spectrum emphasized over any others, nor do I like any portions that appear to be recessed relative to others--in other words, I want tonal neutrality. Recessed areas are admittedly harder to detect compared with elevations--how can you tell? After you hear it, you know. I like the sense that "everybody's in the pool" as Guy Fieri aptly puts it. I should also mention that I have found it useful to have separate Movie and Music profiles with rather less bass in the movie setting than I've been describing for music.

It could well be a case of "ignorance is bliss" for me. I have not had the pleasure of experiencing "optimally tuned" home theaters, particularly wrt bass response/level, so I don't know what I'm missing there.

Roger

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post #3523 of 5884 Old 10-19-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Just to jump on the band wagon...


Jeff (umr) just EQ'd my current theater and did a fantastic job. Audio and sounding better than ever. Even my wife noticed the improvement immediately. Our first test the evening after Jeff finished up was "How To Train Your Dragon". Dialog, panning, LFE - everything sounded spot on! I was totally immersed by the experience.

Although I've loved my Classe from the beginning, I suffered from some room related issues. At no point did I feel something didn't sound right or something was off as I have prior to Jeff's EQing. Considering Jeff knows and navigates the SSP800 so well was also a big plus for me.

Jeff - Once again, you did an unbelievable job. You will certainly be involved when the project for my new room begins.

I also have had Jeff calibrate both my video and audio and was very satisfied with the results. However this was before I got the SSP-800 so I am in need of his services once again.
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post #3524 of 5884 Old 10-23-2010, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by umr View Post

I find accurate speakers like Sonus Faber Elipsa, Aerial 20T, Eben X5 and the VS VR11 for example naturally follow the 222M varient I am suggesting without any EQ.


Do you find that 802Ds are accurate?

On an other note You should all read this

Hifi Zine
The independent audio webzine

The Unease of the Audiophile
The Pulse

Music and its accurate reproduction can provide some of life's great pleasures. Beautiful art meets wonderous technology, and fanatics find communities of fellowship and glossy magazines with which their desires are regularly stoked. But audiophilia comes at a price, and not just in dollars and cents. A three-decade obsession with sound has convinced me that the natural state of an audiophile is not, as we are promised, the relaxed contemplative state of auditory bliss, but the slightly anxious ambivalence of uncertainty. We vary one way or another, but our resting place is not where it should be. When I look for a resolution, I make the following observations to my fellow fanatics about what it means to be an audiophile:

1. You will live with a persistent sense that all is not quite well, that you could do better, and that your system is always in need of something. What this something might be will shift depending on how much you've already invested: it could be a special fuse or a pair of vacuum tube monobocks, but despite the promises, there is no end point in system design; you can always do better. This is your steady state condition and if you lose your perspective on this point, you are destined to be unhappy and poor. If you gain perspective, you can settle on just being poorer.

2. In an attempt to compensate for your unease you will develop a highly cynical reaction to reviewers who you will come to believe are at best delusional and at worst corrupt, on the payroll of manufacturers who provide them with audio goodies and more. Unfortunately, this cynicism does not quite sate your hunger to locate online reviews of products that support your purchasing decisions. In the absence of full reviews, isolated quotes that agree with you, or the words of complete strangers on web forums will work, as long as they confirm your choices.

3. A further ambivalence is invariably induced by the way audio products are priced. You have every reason to doubt the sanity of a world where a pair of interconnect cables can cost more than a car, and where glib reviewers speak of windows being opened, blacks being blacker, and highs being cleaner as a result. Difficult as you find it to admit, you secretly want to try these in your own system to determine if they actually might do something, which you secretly fear is so.

4. Your system will always sound its worst when other audiophiles come to listen. For some reason, the electricity will be a bit dirty that day, your cables will be on a downcycle, your tubes not warmed up enough, or your tension will transmit itself to the turntable. No matter what you do, people won't be hearing your system at its best and this will drive you crazy. For some reason, dealers (think about that name!) never experience this, only users (and that name!). Worse, this experience will scar you for months as if your very credibility as an audiophile is under question by your fellows.

5. You will start to listen to music you never really cared for in the past. Your spouse will become suspicious that your rock and serious instrumental tendencies have given way to smoky voiced chanteuses with, heaven help you, backing bands of players you hardly recognize. You live in fear of being exposed as a closet air guitarist rather than a soldering-gun wielding jazz afficionado. Worse, you start to pick up a collection of audiophile-approved recordings that have fantastic soundstages wrapped around sterile tunes. And you leave these lying around in full view, just in case.

6) To convince yourself that you are sensible, you will have one product in your rig that is killer for the price. You appeal to the price-sensitive normal human in us all by invoking this giant-slayer's reviews and revealing how you heard it once compared to a mega-priced equivalent where you were the only person prepared to admit they could not hear a difference. Sanity partially and temporarily restored, you secretly plan to rewire your living room with audiophile-grade wire and to steam-clean your LPs.

7) In an attempt to appear cost-sensitive, you will dabble in DIY. This could take many forms, but your new-found obsession with affordable paper-in-oil capacitors and high-quality resistors will serve as a shield against claims that you have become a nutter. Now you can quote the cost-to-manufacture for basic audio items and speak authoritatively of the mark-up due to marketing that you and your fellow DIY-ers avoid. You secretly realize those boxes you assemble look ugly to everyone, even you.

8. Once you are a fully paid-up member of the audiophile brigade (with multiple magazine subscriptions, shelves full of old issues, and an obsessive need to track that vintage CD player on Audiogon to see just how much it sells for at auction), you will, not as miraculously as you might have once imagined, become email buddies with a power conditioner designer who has single-handedly unearthed new laws of physics and applied them to domestic wall outlets. You remain unclear if your power cords are the last yard or the first three feet but you feel certain they make a difference and spend accordingly.

9. You have become blase about double-blind reviewing. You wish reviewers would do it but you can't bring yourself to try at home. You find every convenient excuse why it's a problem: your auditory memory is too faint, you can't trust your kids to make the changes unseen by you, it's too much hassle, and everyone knows it doesn't work in audio (though it's been used to great effect everywhere else where human taste and preference are evaluated). Secretly, you fear that you might not be able to tell the difference between the SACD layer and redbook, so why risk the humiliation. Better to lessen your unease by espousing relaxed sighted listening as the only meaningful approach.

10. Your home will become a temple to your religion. Cables will be dressed, risers bought, pucks placed on tops and speaker positions taped to the floor so you can always move them an inch or two around during a private listening service, safe in the knowledge that your little undo trick will work. You will even contemplate brutish sound panels which in your eyes (only) will be justified to others as room decoration. Though you intend to sell your spare equipment, you don't. It sits in a pile, ready to be repurposed for a second, third, even fourth system for the garage that never actually gets assembled. You forget how much you paid for some components even though you would cry if your pension plan dropped that same amount.

Ah friends, it never ends. It's all about the music, people will tell you, but you and I know it is much more than this: unease is your disease. And we wonder why young people aren't audiophiles!

My humble Cinema
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post #3525 of 5884 Old 10-23-2010, 05:49 PM
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Ouch!

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post #3526 of 5884 Old 10-23-2010, 08:42 PM
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Ouch!

Yes it is so true

My humble Cinema
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post #3527 of 5884 Old 10-23-2010, 10:16 PM
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Damn, WSE, I don't know what's worse, that I can relate to more than half of those points, or that I'm so predictable.

You're right though, I'm sure that very few young music lovers can relate to that list because for them it is all about the music.

Thanks for the reminder to keep perspective.

- Tim


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post #3528 of 5884 Old 10-24-2010, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Damn, WSE, I don't know what's worse, that I can relate to more than half of those points, or that I'm so predictable.

You're right though, I'm sure that very few young music lovers can relate to that list because for them it is all about the music.

Thanks for the reminder to keep perspective.

I have to say I find this all very interesting. I have no idea how accurate my speakers are but I do like the way they sound. I am no fool and realize that my speakers are the weak link in my system now that I have the SSP-800, but it took me untill the beginning of this year to match the center and surrounds with my front speakers so I won't be changing them any time soon. As it has been stated it can always be better, but when is it enough?
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post #3529 of 5884 Old 10-27-2010, 02:08 PM
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I purchased a SSP-800 not long ago and have been truly enjoying it. However, I came across what I believe is a "bug" that I can't believe has not been reported. When using 5.1 analog inputs, the SSP-800 will not allow 5.1 discrete (no Dolby II, etc. processing) output because the multi-channel option on fav.processing is greyed out. I'm running f/w version 2.0.4. Can anyone else confirm this?

Also: my unit runs surprisingly warm in standby mode. I have to believe this means it's sucking down watts. Anyone else notice this?
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post #3530 of 5884 Old 10-27-2010, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greid View Post

I purchased a SSP-800 not long ago and have been truly enjoying it. However, I came across what I believe is a "bug" that I can't believe has not been reported. When using 5.1 analog inputs, the SSP-800 will not allow 5.1 discrete (no Dolby II, etc. processing) output because the multi-channel option on fav.processing is greyed out. I'm running f/w version 2.0.4. Can anyone else confirm this?

Yes, when using the multich analog inputs, the listening "mode" option is greyed out by design, since there are no options possible. The analog passthrough is a direct connection to the volume control. It is discrete, by definition. Whatever goes in, comes out, untouched.

Only 2-ch analog sources can be converted to digital for processing.

Quote:


Also: my unit runs surprisingly warm in standby mode. I have to believe this means it's sucking down watts. Anyone else notice this?

Yes. I think it does standby the same as a DVR. Mutes to outputs and displays, but continues to run. That's my guess, anyway.

Roger

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post #3531 of 5884 Old 10-27-2010, 04:53 PM
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Roger:
Thanks for the quick reply. Just for clarification: When I input 5.1 Analog, the SSP-800 outputs 2 channel audio only. It's not doing pass-thru. I cannot get it to output 5.1 audio. Is this by design?

I want to be able to play multi-channel SACDs. This is the only means, without buying a player (i.e. OPPO) that converts DSD->PCM. I've read that much audio quality is lost in the DSD->PCM conversion.

In terms of sound quality, any experience with DSD->PCM conversion versus the analog route?

Thanks.
...Glenn
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post #3532 of 5884 Old 10-27-2010, 06:37 PM
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Roger:
Thanks for the quick reply. Just for clarification: When I input 5.1 Analog, the SSP-800 outputs 2 channel audio only. It's not doing pass-thru. I cannot get it to output 5.1 audio. Is this by design?

Sorry, Glenn, now I understand the issue. I have not seen that happen, so I am fishing. Aside from your 5.1-speaker configuration, do you perhaps have a Configuration defined for 2 speakers? And maybe that is the config you paired with the multichannel input? (I have never tried that, so not sure.)

Alternatively, are you sure the player is outputting 5.1 audio?

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I want to be able to play multi-channel SACDs. This is the only means, without buying a player (i.e. OPPO) that converts DSD->PCM. I've read that much audio quality is lost in the DSD->PCM conversion.

Can't believe everything you read. Not all converters are the same. PS3 converts to 176.4 kHz, Oppo to 88.2 kHz, Denon to 44.1 kHz.

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In terms of sound quality, any experience with DSD->PCM conversion versus the analog route?

I only use the PCM route for SACDs, and they sound great. Never bothered with analog as without bass management and EQ, the result is a distant second in my room.

Roger

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post #3533 of 5884 Old 10-28-2010, 02:10 AM
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Roger, what source are you using for SACD?
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post #3534 of 5884 Old 10-28-2010, 02:47 AM
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Not all converters are the same. PS3 converts to 176.4 kHz...

Have you personally confirmed this or is this a theoretical output? I have only seen the PS3 output 44.1kHz with SACDs even when the PS3 output was configured for 176.4kHz only or when selecting all three sampling rates (176.4/88.2/44.1kHz) simultaneously.

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post #3535 of 5884 Old 10-28-2010, 12:42 PM
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Roger, what source are you using for SACD?

Oppo BDP-83, 88.2 kHz output.

Roger

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post #3536 of 5884 Old 10-28-2010, 12:51 PM
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Have you personally confirmed this or is this a theoretical output?

Neither. It seems to be what folks report, as in this post and confirmed by users (posts 6, 12) in the thread.

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post #3537 of 5884 Old 11-01-2010, 07:44 PM
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Tried it before I called Classe, but power cycling solved the missing OSD issue when on the phone w/them. Then, of course, I used the processor again last night -- no OSD. Didn't feel like getting up a power cycling, so went w/o. Will see what happens tonight -- not enjoying this intermittent issue.

Classe is aware of the problem but it's been tough for them to recreate. Nonetheless, they are hoping to address it in the next firmware update.

I'm looking at some new beta code, but it as yet does not address the OSD issue for the very reason you mentioned: cannot duplicate the problem. This was also the issue for the missing S/PDIF audio, but I stumbled across a setting using component video that made it happen every time. They were thus able to see and fix it.

If, perchance, anyone experiencing this OSD problem can find any sequence of functions, or particular external connections that induce the problem, please share. Or, if there are a few of you seeing the problem, maybe listing the display model and settings, or other details of the setup will help expose a common factor.

And let's define what we mean by "missing OSD": Touching the remote's Info button brings up the Status screen on the touch panel, but it fails to appear on the attached display.

Roger

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post #3538 of 5884 Old 11-01-2010, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I'm looking at some new beta code, but it as yet does not address the OSD issue for the very reason you mentioned: cannot duplicate the problem. This was also the issue for the missing S/PDIF audio, but I stumbled across a setting using component video that made it happen every time. They were thus able to see and fix it.

If, perchance, anyone experiencing this OSD problem can find any sequence of functions, or particular external connections that induce the problem, please share. Or, if there are a few of you seeing the problem, maybe listing the display model and settings, or other details of the setup will help expose a common factor.

And let's define what we mean by "missing OSD": Touching the remote's Info button brings up the Status screen on the touch panel, but it fails to appear on the attached display.

Yes it happens to me at least once a week!!!

My humble Cinema
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post #3539 of 5884 Old 11-02-2010, 12:19 AM
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Yes it happens to me at least once a week!!!

Did you read my post? Care to participate in helping get it resolved? If not, then why post about it? Just curious.

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post #3540 of 5884 Old 11-02-2010, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Did you read my post? Care to participate in helping get it resolved? If not, then why post about it? Just curious.

YES, "Touching the remote's Info button brings up the Status screen on the touch panel, but it fails to appear on the attached display" I have to turn off the SSP-800 for the OSD to come back. It seems to be a random very annoying event

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