Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 5832 Old 01-09-2009, 09:04 AM
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Reading the world according to doug reminds me of the time I was walking in the woods and got caught in one of my own traps! ouch.
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post #632 of 5832 Old 01-09-2009, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Do they all sound the same, no.

You know Doug, you just proved my point, and proved your assertion wrong. By your own admission, Processors DO sound different. This would manifest itself in different analog signals, which would then be present in the digital result after going through an ADC. And since the differences are audible, by your own admission, then the difference is not moot.
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The point is that if processor 1 produces signal A, and processor 2 produces signal B that is even SLIGHTLY different than signal A, the result of sending signal A through the ADC would be slightly different that the result of sending signal B through the ADC. Understand?

Since we are using the same ADC in both situations there would be no difference and in a DBT you would not be able to tell.

This is a baseless comment because the initial situation was hypothetical to illustrate a point. How about I clarify that situation. Processor 1 produces signal A, and processor 2 produces signal B that is SLIGHTLY but audibly different than signal A, the result of sending signal A through the ADC would show the audible difference between signal A and B. By your own admission that processors sound different, this is indeed the case.
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Again you think that there are huge differences and if we put both processors through an oscilloscope you would get a better idea of how identical both signals will be.

By your own admission, processors sound different. This must mean that the signals are not identical. This again reinforces the point that the source signal IS relevant, and that your assertion is false.
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You do know that a G can sound different don't you? For example a G played on a piano sounds different than a G played on a guitar, which sounds different from a G played on a violin. The overall sound produced by something is more complex than just its fundamental frequency. I hope you're not now going to tell me that all Gs are the same regardless of the instrument.

So you think that the signals would be so different that on processor would sound like a G from a piano and the other would sound like a G from a guitar?

I had to laugh at this one. No one in their right mind would read what I wrote and draw the conclusions that you did Doug. Get some help.
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Not to stir the pot but if you want to see Doug at his best check out the "Cary 11a vs. 9.9 SQ, Cary Issues" thread. Then also check out the link I posted, you will see DW at his hypocritical best. Compare posts #23 and 26 in the Cary... thread and then compare his posts in the link. Oh DW you are a piece of work.

You should really read the thread since I was defending the integra/onkyo.

The point of his post was to show how you completely contradicted yourself.

Think of it this way Doug. The ADC is essentially measuring the analog signal to produce a digital result. A different analog signal will result in a different digital result from the measurement. It is ludicrous to argue that the source of the measurement, the actual data being measured, is irrelevant. However, this is what you keep trying to do.
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post #633 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 02:07 PM
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Couldn't wait any longer for another processor as very little seeming to come out of CES and I was tired of waiting for bitstream codec support! Finally pulled the trigger on this, should hopefully have it before Friday!
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post #634 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Couldn't wait any longer for another processor as very little seeming to come out of CES and I was tired of waiting for bitstream codec support! Finally pulled the trigger on this, should hopefully have it before Friday!

Congrats owl!

I'm sure you'll love it.
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post #635 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

You should really read the thread since I was defending the integra/onkyo.

I have read this thread. That is all you do is defend Integra/Onkyo as if that is something new. The point I was trying to make is that you spread so much BS you forget what you have said in the past. Your thoughts and opinions are not worth anything in this thread or in any other on AVS IMO. This is a very informative thread for people interested in the SSP-800 and would be better served if you were not part of it.

My apologies to the SSP-800 owners and others interested here for my comments, I will let myself out the back door. But I am tired of seeing good threads like this ruined by DW and his endless BS.

Bill

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post #636 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 03:51 PM
 
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You know Doug, you just proved my point, and proved your assertion wrong. By your own admission, Processors DO sound different. This would manifest itself in different analog signals, which would then be present in the digital result after going through an ADC. And since the differences are audible, by your own admission, then the difference is not moot.

Different as in not the same as a digital signal, irrelvant enough to where a ADC would not differentiate.

Quote:


This is a baseless comment because the initial situation was hypothetical to illustrate a point. How about I clarify that situation. Processor 1 produces signal A, and processor 2 produces signal B that is SLIGHTLY but audibly different than signal A, the result of sending signal A through the ADC would show the audible difference between signal A and B. By your own admission that processors sound different, this is indeed the case.

And now we are at an impasse, I would honestly like to see a test, maybe something like mythbusters or the likes.
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post #637 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 04:11 PM
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This guy is like a Timex....................Takes a lickin and keeps on tickin.
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post #638 of 5832 Old 01-10-2009, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by idomeneo View Post

Congrats owl!

I'm sure you'll love it.

Thanks idomeneo. I've owned a lot of very high end 2 channel processors like Audio Aero, EMM, Zanden, DCS, ENSEMBLE, Krell etc etc etc and also had Halcro SSP-100, EAD, ARCAM, and Krell pre/pros, etc so I'm fairly jaded when it comes to digital and have to say that I was pleasantly surprised by this unit when I borrowed it last week as I was feeling pretty good that my system was sounding good with my receiver as a preamp to McIntosh amps.

It certainly put the Pioneer Elite 94TXH which I thought was doing a more than adequate job to me as an interim stopgap to complete and utter shame. With it in the system I simply could not say no and go back to the Pioneer! As a warning to those who would borrow one of these: do NOT put this in your system unless you're prepared to pay the freight.

All I can say is wish that this processor didn't cost as much as it does so that more people could experience how utterly detailed and transparent this processor can make their existing systems sound. A terrific achievement at this price point and a stunning sounding piece. Looking forward to putting it in its new home.
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post #639 of 5832 Old 01-11-2009, 05:07 PM
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owl1,

Well stated. Is it the best 2 Channel Preamp money can buy ? -> no I had a Tact TCS2 for the last couple years when i switched to the SSP-800. I am impressed. I use ADAM S2A studio speakers.

Rabbit
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post #640 of 5832 Old 01-21-2009, 12:40 PM
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Newbie Question: If I buy this pre/pro, will I be able to have multichannel high definition audio (from blu-ray or SACD) streamed in via HDMI and decoded at the highest sample rates and best quality - LPCM 24/192? The specs are vague.
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post #641 of 5832 Old 01-21-2009, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquablu8 View Post

Newbie Question: If I buy this pre/pro, will I be able to have multichannel high definition audio (from blu-ray or SACD) streamed in via HDMI and decoded at the highest sample rates and best quality - LPCM 24/192? The specs are vague.

Not currently. Classe is working on a replacement DSP board that will enable the decoding of bit-stream HD audio, but right now you need a player that decodes the audio and sends it to the SSP-800 as uncompressed PCM, like the Sony BDP-S550.
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post #642 of 5832 Old 01-21-2009, 01:19 PM
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But does it support 192khz LPCM or not? I heard it doesn't, only 96khz.
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post #643 of 5832 Old 01-21-2009, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by aquablu8 View Post

But does it support 192khz LPCM or not? I heard it doesn't, only 96khz.

Sorry, missed that part. No, I don't believe it does. For what it is worth, Classe found that the DAC's had better performance at 96K. It might accept a 192K signal, but it would be converted to 96K internally.

I think you should still listen to the SSP-800 before writing it off for a lack of 192K support though. Specs are one thing, but execution on design is just as important, IMO.
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post #644 of 5832 Old 01-21-2009, 02:49 PM
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Yes, i see...thanks
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post #645 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 05:20 AM
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Well, have to say I'm ecstatic to finally have received this piece. I'm unfortunately having issues with bass. This is FW 1.0.1 and the unit I borrowed a few weeks ago had killer bass so I think there may be either an issue with this unit or the new firmware and build.

I get phenomenal bass on LPCM sources but almost nothing on either Dolby Digital or DTS soundtracks, the vast majority of material (comcast and many BD's). I will attempt to measure this and post results here to document this as a possible issue.

Has anyone else with a very recent build had issues with this and is there a workaround?
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post #646 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Sorry, missed that part. No, I don't believe it does. For what it is worth, Classe found that the DAC's had better performance at 96K. It might accept a 192K signal, but it would be converted to 96K internally.

I think you should still listen to the SSP-800 before writing it off for a lack of 192K support though. Specs are one thing, but execution on design is just as important, IMO.

Thats correct. It accepts 192, but down samples it to 96. Classe determined that 96k offered the best performance.

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post #647 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 10:08 AM
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Update from Classé

The DSP is delayed until Spring 09 that means June 2009 if we are lucky !!
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post #648 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Well, have to say I'm ecstatic to finally have received this piece. I'm unfortunately having issues with bass. This is FW 1.0.1 and the unit I borrowed a few weeks ago had killer bass so I think there may be either an issue with this unit or the new firmware and build.

I get phenomenal bass on LPCM sources but almost nothing on either Dolby Digital or DTS soundtracks, the vast majority of material (comcast and many BD's). I will attempt to measure this and post results here to document this as a possible issue.

Has anyone else with a very recent build had issues with this and is there a workaround?

Just to confirm, you might have to check the setup of the bass management for DD/DTS vs LPCM, as they may use different Configuration profiles. For example, p47 of the manual mentions how the Size option may be set to Full Range or Crossed Over. This may be set as you like for each Configuration profile. Also check the "e-bass" and other settings to see if they are consistent between LPCM and DD/DTS Configurations.
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post #649 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 12:33 PM
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The TrondheimSolistene: Divertimenti BD features 192/24 MCPCM.....




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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Update from Classé

"The only 192kHz source material that we are currently aware of are 2 channel DVD-As and the SSP-800 is capable handling them. In terms of multichannel audio, the SSP-800 handles 8 channels at 96kHz, which is Blu Ray's maximum capability.

The Dual DSP will be able to handle 192kHz, because this is the bitrate for the encoded bitstreams."

Yes that is great Blu Ray Music might make it or at least you will be ready for it, Check out 2L


Long Live WaltChan
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post #650 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by darthpaul View Post

The TrondheimSolistene: Divertimenti BD features 192/24 MCPCM.....

MCPCM 192 kHz is optional in BD, meaning players can choose to output it as 96 kHz instead.

My opinion: 192 kHz = red herring.
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post #651 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

MCPCM 192 kHz is optional in BD, meaning players can choose to output it as 96 kHz instead.

My opinion: 192 kHz = red herring.

I can barely hear past 16KHz, let alone 96K. Besides, my speakers only have response out to 24KHz. 192KHz sampling rate seems pointless to me, and even 96KHz is overkill.
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post #652 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Just to confirm, you might have to check the setup of the bass management for DD/DTS vs LPCM, as they may use different Configuration profiles. For example, p47 of the manual mentions how the Size option may be set to Full Range or Crossed Over. This may be set as you like for each Configuration profile. Also check the "e-bass" and other settings to see if they are consistent between LPCM and DD/DTS Configurations.

Thanks Roger for confirming. I did walk through configuration setup with Classe service yesterday and they verified that indeed I was already set up correctly with small xover at 80hz for all my speakers even though I run full range Wilsons.

Another possible glitch ( I run 2 JlAudio subs) is that I tried to see if perhaps I had a faulty sub output and tried to select and connect the 2 aux outputs to double and triple mono subs but they were outputting nothing at all so I went back and subwoofer would not highlight itself as an option when attempting to do this. Has anyone else configured aux for multiple mono subwoofers?

I'm also on build 0039 for reference.

Hopefully I can work this issue out as I'm anxious to get the better BD players I have up on this processor. Right now the PS3 is the only compatible player that outputs LPCM reliably well. The Sony 550 and Elite 05 less so. I have to say I'm listening to Shpongle in 2 channel now through the PS3 and it sounds absolutely brilliant through this pre/processor!

Very busy with work right now but want to document the difference in bass output between a BD outputting LPCM and Dolby Digital or DTS source via RTA spectrum analyzer graphically here for comparison as soon as I am able.
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post #653 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 03:38 PM
 
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Newbie Question: If I buy this pre/pro, will I be able to have multichannel high definition audio (from blu-ray or SACD) streamed in via HDMI and decoded at the highest sample rates and best quality - LPCM 24/192? The specs are vague.

http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/detail-ssp-800.htm

24bit/32-192kHz PCM

Quote:


Sorry, missed that part. No, I don't believe it does. For what it is worth, Classe found that the DAC's had better performance at 96K. It might accept a 192K signal, but it would be converted to 96K internally.

Are you sure because the DAC's they use are 24/192 and will up sample to that, so how does classe go about this?

Quote:


Thats correct. It accepts 192, but down samples it to 96. Classe determined that 96k offered the best performance.

If true so much for being "high end" or "better".

Quote:


I can barely hear past 16KHz, let alone 96K. Besides, my speakers only have response out to 24KHz. 192KHz sampling rate seems pointless to me, and even 96KHz is overkill.

What? That is what it will upsample the digital signal to, it has nothing to do with a physical sound wave being output through a speaker.
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post #654 of 5832 Old 01-22-2009, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

What? That is what it will upsample the digital signal to, it has nothing to do with a physical sound wave being output through a speaker.

Sure it does. The only reason to have a higher sampling rate is to extend the bandwidth of the output.

The sampling rate frequency determines the maximum frequency of the output. A 192KHz sample rate has a max output of 96KHz, a 96KHz sample rate tops out at 48KHz, and 44.1KHz sample rate tops out at 22KHz. So unless you have superhuman hearing and speakers that can reproduce a 96KHz signal, there is no need for 192KHz.

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia on Sampling View Post

The sampling theorem guarantees that bandlimited signals (i.e., signals which have a maximum frequency) can be reconstructed perfectly from their sampled version, if the sampling rate is more than twice the maximum frequency.

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post #655 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 11:30 AM
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checked with Rebelman, and I'm probably going to mess this up, but yes, it will receive 192, but the output buffers only do 96k. Does that make sense?

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post #656 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Thanks Roger for confirming. I did walk through configuration setup with Classe service yesterday and they verified that indeed I was already set up correctly with small xover at 80hz for all my speakers even though I run full range Wilsons.

Another possible glitch ( I run 2 JlAudio subs) is that I tried to see if perhaps I had a faulty sub output and tried to select and connect the 2 aux outputs to double and triple mono subs but they were outputting nothing at all so I went back and subwoofer would not highlight itself as an option when attempting to do this. Has anyone else configured aux for multiple mono subwoofers?

I'm also on build 0039 for reference.

Hopefully I can work this issue out as I'm anxious to get the better BD players I have up on this processor. Right now the PS3 is the only compatible player that outputs LPCM reliably well. The Sony 550 and Elite 05 less so. I have to say I'm listening to Shpongle in 2 channel now through the PS3 and it sounds absolutely brilliant through this pre/processor!

Very busy with work right now but want to document the difference in bass output between a BD outputting LPCM and Dolby Digital or DTS source via RTA spectrum analyzer graphically here for comparison as soon as I am able.

The original firmware had a bug with using a sub on the AUX ports. It was fixed with the current firmware; however, there is a bug that will make your 550 useless with the SSP-800 and the current release. They are working to fix this.

So, if you have the original release, you can't use the aux ports, you will need to either daisy chain the subs or get a Y adapter.

If you have the current release, plug sub2 into AUX2. The distance will say AUX1, but when you go to set the levels, it will appropriately read AUX2 and you can independently calibrate each sub.

Hope that helps.

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post #657 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

http://www.classeaudio.com/delta/detail-ssp-800.htm

24bit/32-192kHz PCM



Are you sure because the DAC's they use are 24/192 and will up sample to that, so how does classe go about this?



If true so much for being "high end" or "better".



What? That is what it will upsample the digital signal to, it has nothing to do with a physical sound wave being output through a speaker.

you still haven't shared your credentials with us. until you do, go away.

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post #658 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Sure it does. The only reason to have a higher sampling rate is to extend the bandwidth of the output.

The sampling rate frequency determines the maximum frequency of the output. A 192KHz sample rate has a max output of 96KHz, a 96KHz sample rate tops out at 48KHz, and 44.1KHz sample rate tops out at 22KHz. So unless you have superhuman hearing and speakers that can reproduce a 96KHz signal, there is no need for 192KHz.

tim, it isnt jsut about the high freq limitation, 24/192 is the future of blu-ray music...

http://www.2l.no/epost/news2008may.html

discs like that one have some lovely 24/192 tracks on it. the classe unit here is going to down res all this stuff to 24/96

perhaps some salvation might be when they update the boards on it, perhaps then it can accept 24/192 bitstream or 24/192 lpcm and treat correctly.

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post #659 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

tim, it isnt jsut about the high freq limitation, 24/192 is the future of blu-ray music...

http://www.2l.no/epost/news2008may.html

discs like that one have some lovely 24/192 tracks on it. the classe unit here is going to down res all this stuff to 24/96

perhaps some salvation might be when they update the boards on it, perhaps then it can accept 24/192 bitstream or 24/192 lpcm and treat correctly.

To the best of my knowledge, increasing the bit rate from 16 to 24 increases the dynamic range, and increasing the sampling rate increases the bandwidth. If this is the case, then it still makes no sense to me why any humanbeing with an upper hearing limit of 22KHz would benefit from 192KHz sampling rate. What do you believe the benefits of the increased sampling rate are other than a higher frequency limit?
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post #660 of 5832 Old 01-23-2009, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

To the best of my knowledge, increasing the bit rate from 16 to 24 increases the dynamic range, and increasing the sampling rate increases the bandwidth. If this is the case, then it still makes no sense to me why any humanbeing with an upper hearing limit of 22KHz would benefit from 192KHz sampling rate. What do you believe the benefits of the increased sampling rate are other than a higher frequency limit?

tim its resolution, a better sampling rate provides a better approximation of the original analog signal. SACD for instance has a sampling rate of 2.8224 MHz or 64 times that of CD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Audio_CD

as far as hearing limitations. go get your ears tested, find your limits of your hearing and then put in a filter to roll off at that limit and amaze yourself at the difference it makes ! oh and by the way do the same with bass while your at it !

think all that beyond the relevance of this discussion though

the point is the classe here is going to down res any 24/192 blu-ray music down to 24/96. you might not give a rats and dont think it an issue but there might be others who would like the material properly treated as intended and not down resd.

in any regard thats something I think classe should make blatantly clear in their promotional material rather than make ambiguous statements like it will "accept" 24/192 without saying that they actually down sample any material of that resolution

its a bit like the crap "htdtv ready" claims we used to have where theyre not full hd at all. would accept hdtv for sure but down res to 1024x764 !

"Technology is a drug. We can't get enough of it."


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