Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 5832 Old 03-02-2009, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Is your masking applied by the projector (edge blanking) or is it a physical system at the screen?

It's a menu item in the projector, not a physical masking system. Have had this particular pro a few mo's and did not have issues until now.
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post #812 of 5832 Old 03-02-2009, 05:11 PM
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Greetings - I have been lurking for some time, and have enjoyed most everyone's input over the last few months...

I've got an issue I with my SSP-800, and I want to see if anyone else has encountered this with theirs... Though from reading recent posts, I'm pretty certain owl1 has the same problem.

First, a note about my system: I'm using all XLR balanced interconnects to the amp for my 7 speakers (Paradigm Signature series), and for the connections to the two subs (Paradigm Signature Servo-15s). My only inputs are a Marantz DVD (9500) and the Motorola cable box - both using HDMI interconnects.

Under normal circumstances, you would plug the prime sub into the SUB output, and the secondary sub into the AUX1, assign a configuration with all speakers set to SMALL, crossover at 80Hz, Sub ENABLED, E-bass-OFF, Aux channels set to SUB, TWO MONO SUBS. When I do this, the observed bass level is pathetically low. And so I started experimenting. (BTW, Aux 1 wouldn't work with this setup for 1.0.0, so you had to use Aux2... then I thought it was fixed for 1.0.1? But with 1.0.2, it doesn't work anymore... grrrr!!).

If I put both subs into Aux1 and Aux2, set the speakers to SMALL/80Hz, sub OFF, aux channels Down-Mix Variable: this works GREAT! This provides the level of bass I expect. Both of my subs then use their internal crossover to clip off the high frequencies. Both subs are set to about 50% volume. This bass level is very similar to what I got out of the system with my previous processor (Anthem Statement D2).

However, this is clearly not the preferred configuration. I really want to use the crossover internal to the SSP to do the clipping of signals to the subs.

Without going on and on (more than I already have), I've tried EVERYTHING. My dealer (working with Classé) actually replaced the unit, thinking it must be defective. But NO - the new unit behaves exactly the same..! So now I'm stumped..!

It gets a little stranger - but I'll stop here and wait for comment. By the way - to be clear, the new unit is running 1.0.2. For all configurations, I set the 7 speakers to SMALL/80Hz... and for all test scenarios; I have tried to keep all variables the same... and ALL channels (7 + 2 subs) use XLR balanced cables.

BTW - this issue persists with any DVD I try, and any cable channel... the surround sound setting (DD-EX / PLIIx / whatever) does not matter.

So what do you think? Does anyone use XLR cables for their 7.2 system?? Any input would certainly be appreciated..!!!
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post #813 of 5832 Old 03-02-2009, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Morty2 View Post

Greetings - I have been lurking for some time, and have enjoyed most everyone's input over the last few months...

I've got an issue I with my SSP-800, and I want to see if anyone else has encountered this with theirs... Though from reading recent posts, I'm pretty certain owl1 has the same problem.

First, a note about my system: I'm using all XLR balanced interconnects to the amp for my 7 speakers (Paradigm Signature series), and for the connections to the two subs (Paradigm Signature Servo-15s). My only inputs are a Marantz DVD (9500) and the Motorola cable box - both using HDMI interconnects.

Under normal circumstances, you would plug the prime sub into the SUB output, and the secondary sub into the AUX1, assign a configuration with all speakers set to SMALL, crossover at 80Hz, Sub ENABLED, E-bass-OFF, Aux channels set to SUB, TWO MONO SUBS. When I do this, the observed bass level is pathetically low. And so I started experimenting. (BTW, Aux 1 wouldn't work with this setup for 1.0.0, so you had to use Aux2... then I thought it was fixed for 1.0.1? But with 1.0.2, it doesn't work anymore... grrrr!!).

If I put both subs into Aux1 and Aux2, set the speakers to SMALL/80Hz, sub OFF, aux channels Down-Mix Variable: this works GREAT! This provides the level of bass I expect. Both of my subs then use their internal crossover to clip off the high frequencies. Both subs are set to about 50% volume. This bass level is very similar to what I got out of the system with my previous processor (Anthem Statement D2).

However, this is clearly not the preferred configuration. I really want to use the crossover internal to the SSP to do the clipping of signals to the subs.

Without going on and on (more than I already have), I've tried EVERYTHING. My dealer (working with Classé) actually replaced the unit, thinking it must be defective. But NO - the new unit behaves exactly the same..! So now I'm stumped..!

It gets a little stranger - but I'll stop here and wait for comment. By the way - to be clear, the new unit is running 1.0.2. For all configurations, I set the 7 speakers to SMALL/80Hz... and for all test scenarios; I have tried to keep all variables the same... and ALL channels (7 + 2 subs) use XLR balanced cables.

BTW - this issue persists with any DVD I try, and any cable channel... the surround sound setting (DD-EX / PLIIx / whatever) does not matter.

So what do you think? Does anyone use XLR cables for their 7.2 system?? Any input would certainly be appreciated..!!!

I use only balance inputs for my 2 JL Audio subs only. All the other amps are RCA. I run a 7.1 point system with all large speakers. I have my second sub plugged into the Aux 2. Aux 1 does not work this is a known bug with the unit and a typo in the manual. I get full bass out of my Blu Ray player. My Cable box sub out put is weak. I think it depends on the source being played. Classe is looking inot this since several people have complained. Regarding your sub issue Tom of Classe recommends running the subs as L eft and right not dual mono. Try that and see if it works if not call Classe and talk to Tom he helped fix my probelm and he is really a great guy,
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post #814 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 05:47 AM
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I don't use XLR for my subs, but I have 2 subs. It is correct to use the Sub output and the Aux2 output.

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Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

I use only balance inputs for my 2 JL Audio subs only. All the other amps are RCA. I run a 7.1 point system with all large speakers. I have my second sub plugged into the Aux 2. Aux 1 does not work this is a known bug with the unit and a typo in the manual. I get full bass out of my Blu Ray player. My Cable box sub out put is weak. I think it depends on the source being played. Classe is looking inot this since several people have complained. Regarding your sub issue Tom of Classe recommends running the subs as L eft and right not dual mono. Try that and see if it works if not call Classe and talk to Tom he helped fix my probelm and he is really a great guy,


Thats interesting. I can understand using subs in stereo for music, but why would it matter if its a movie soundtrack?

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post #815 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

Regarding your sub issue Tom of Classe recommends running the subs as L eft and right not dual mono. Try that and see if it works if not call Classe and talk to Tom he helped fix my probelm and he is really a great guy,

Not sure who you're referring to, but since we have the same problem, perhaps both of us?

I may be a little slow this morning but if you run subs as L and R to supplement those speakers don't you miss out on the subwoofer LFE effects channel on movie soundtracks which are supposed to be discrete?

This would be completely unacceptable for movies although it might be nice for music with non full range mains IMO unless I'm missing something here...
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post #816 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Not sure who you're referring to, but since we have the same problem, perhaps both of us?

I may be a little slow this morning but if you run subs as L and R to supplement those speakers don't you miss out on the subwoofer LFE effects channel on movie soundtracks which are supposed to be discrete?

This would be completely unacceptable for movies although it might be nice for music with non full range mains IMO unless I'm missing something here...

I believe in L/R configuration, the LFE channel is still distributed to the subs as if they were running in mono.

It's just the bass redirection from the Left and Right channel that is directed to a specific sub.
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post #817 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

Thats interesting. I can understand using subs in stereo for music, but why would it matter if its a movie soundtrack?

Movie soundtracks carry significant bass in the main channels, just as much as in music recordings--and it's just as "stereo." LFE is a supplemental channel for extra bass effects, not the sole source of all movie bass.

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Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

I may be a little slow this morning but if you run subs as L and R to supplement those speakers don't you miss out on the subwoofer LFE effects channel on movie soundtracks which are supposed to be discrete?

This would be completely unacceptable for movies although it might be nice for music with non full range mains IMO unless I'm missing something here...

Any self-respecting bass manager will split the LFE equally to the two subs while leaving the rest of the redirected bass from the main channels in stereo. LFE is not supposed to be discrete, if by that you mean it has to come from a separate subwoofer. That only happens in rare cases, particularly movie theaters.
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post #818 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Movie soundtracks carry significant bass in the main channels, just as much as in music recordings--and it's just as "stereo." LFE is a supplemental channel for extra bass effects, not the sole source of all movie bass.

Any self-respecting bass manager will split the LFE equally to the two subs while leaving the rest of the redirected bass from the main channels in stereo. LFE is not supposed to be discrete, if by that you mean it has to come from a separate subwoofer. That only happens in rare cases, particularly movie theaters.

LFE under Dolby Surround of course was not discrete. Under latest codecs like Dolby Digital, yes, DTS MA etc. It's it's own channel of information and you would not be hearing what the director/producer/mixer intended you to hear without it. The LFE is not discrete? That would be a little like saying stereo with one speaker working is mono. It's not, you're missing information from the other channel. In this case the LFE channel.

I don't care what mix you're talking about, but if I cannot get the LFE signal to my subs I'm not hearing all the information on that particular mix. If I switch to going off the downmix variable setting I'm only hearing bass information intended from the mains, L&R. I agree it's better than no bass but it's not the way a surround system should be configured as its missing the LFE channel.
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post #819 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 01:05 PM
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In addition to my low bass level issue (mentioned earlier), I have had a curious problem with a random knocking signal in my subs. I wanted to check to see if anyone else has noticed this As I mentioned before, I'm using XLR cables to the subs

The knock sounds very similar to the sound made during startup - when the DC trigger turns on the Subs. It is so similar, I was sure that if I removed the DC triggers from the loop, I would remove the problem thinking the SSP was cycling the on/off signal for some reason - but removing the DC triggers and turning the subs on permanently did not remove the problem.

The knock is quite random, is occurs while using either the cable box or DVD input it even happened once while I was on the phone with the SSP in MUTE. This is my second unit, and both have done this...

I do have power isolators for my entire system, and all my cables are off the carpet, so I highly doubt it is a static discharge. And again, the SSP is the only change I've made to the system (to my entire household electrical system) - which precisely coincides with the appearance of this spurious knock
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post #820 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

LFE under Dolby Surround of course was not discrete.

Not only was it not discrete, it was non-existant. LFE is only possible in MCH discrete formats.

Quote:


Under latest codecs like Dolby Digital, yes, DTS MA etc. It's it's own channel of information and you would not be hearing what the director/producer/mixer intended you to hear without it. The LFE is not discrete? That would be a little like saying stereo with one speaker working is mono. It's not, you're missing information from the other channel. In this case the LFE channel.

I didn't say anything about how LFE is delivered in the codec, which of course is always discrete. I said it didn't have to come from its own subwoofer, as we were discussing bass management.

Quote:


I don't care what mix you're talking about, but if I cannot get the LFE signal to my subs I'm not hearing all the information on that particular mix.

Did you read my post? I said the LFE would be mixed in with the bass from the other channels. I never said it was lost.

Quote:


If I switch to going off the downmix variable setting I'm only hearing bass information intended from the mains, L&R. I agree it's better than no bass but it's not the way a surround system should be configured as its missing the LFE channel.

Switch off the downmix variable setting? What's that? What's it got to do with stereo subwoofers and bass management?
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post #821 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morty2 View Post

The knock is quite random, is occurs while using either the cable box or DVD input it even happened once while I was on the phone with the SSP in MUTE. This is my second unit, and both have done this...

Hmmm. Try turning off the power to the SSP, and turn on the subwoofer. Let is sit for a while to see if the knock occurs. If so, then disconnect the signal input to the sub, check again.

Does the same thing happen when you connect the sub via the single-ended input?

Just trying to completely isolate the source.
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post #822 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I didn't say anything about how LFE is delivered in the codec, which of course is always discrete. I said it didn't have to come from its own subwoofer, as we were discussing bass management.

Did you read my post? I said the LFE would be mixed in with the bass from the other channels. I never said it was lost.

Switch off the downmix variable setting? What's that? What's it got to do with stereo subwoofers and bass management?

Perhaps you haven't followed the above posts and been reading far back enough in the thread. There is a problem with bass reproduction on the ssp800 that at least 2 or 3 people have had. My and other's sub(s) are not getting any information from the SSP 800 out of it's subwoofer output in either balanced or single ended. In my case it is lost completely from the sub out.

The only way myself and Morty have been able to get any signal to our subs is out of AUX settings (see his post above) by configuring in downmix variable setting but in theSSP800 it's only giving you bass from the L&R, which means you miss the center ch bass, and surrounds as well as the dedicated discrete LFE channel.
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post #823 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hmmm. Try turning off the power to the SSP, and turn on the subwoofer. Let is sit for a while to see if the knock occurs. If so, then disconnect the signal input to the sub, check again.

Does the same thing happen when you connect the sub via the single-ended input?

Just trying to completely isolate the source.

TRIED THAT - with the SSP off and subs ON - there is no sound - totally quiet.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT - NO - when i was using a pair of RCA cables to see if the XLR impacted my bass issue, i never had a single knock... how strange is that?!!!
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post #824 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Morty2 View Post

TRIED THAT - with the SSP off and subs ON - there is no sound - totally quiet.

BELIEVE IT OR NOT - NO - when i was using a pair of RCA cables to see if the XLR impacted my bass issue, i never had a single knock... how strange is that?!!!

What model is the subwoofer? And while we're here, tell me about the XLR cable you are using. Home made? Or brand/type?

When you say "a pair of RCA cables" does that mean you run other than mono to the sub?
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post #825 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by owl1 View Post

Perhaps you haven't followed the above posts and been reading far back enough in the thread. There is a problem with bass reproduction on the ssp800 that at least 2 or 3 people have had. My and other's sub(s) are not getting any information from the SSP 800 out of it's subwoofer output in either balanced or single ended. In my case it is lost completely from the sub out.

The only way myself and Morty have been able to get any signal to our subs is out of AUX settings (see his post above) by configuring in downmix variable setting but in theSSP800 it's only giving you bass from the L&R, which means you miss the center ch bass, and surrounds as well as the dedicated discrete LFE channel.

Yes, you and others are having some bass troubles with SSP needing to be sorted out. Understood.

Sikoniko was asking about the merits of stereo subwoofers vs mono LFE. I was addressing that, and only that.

As Paul Harvey would say....."good day."
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post #826 of 5832 Old 03-03-2009, 07:19 PM
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There are various ideas about the use of stereo subwoofers. One school of thought is that any frequency below 40 is non directional. However Classe recommends and others that if you do have a pair of subs to make them left and right. Some processors do not differentiate between L & R like my old Lexicon which only has 2 mono subs out. At the crossover point you can tell. Classe will split the signal and direct all L signal to the L sub etc. It is also easier to balance a system this way.
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post #827 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

What model is the subwoofer? And while we're here, tell me about the XLR cable you are using. Home made? Or brand/type?

When you say "a pair of RCA cables" does that mean you run other than mono to the sub?

Sorry Roger - I didn't have much time when I made my last post, and was not clear. When I spoke of a pair' of RCA cables, I was only meaning that I got two cables from my dealer to put into my system - one cable to each of my two subs. As with the XLR cables, I only run one channel to each sub.

I use Transparent cables all around. The subs use Balanced Music Wave-Super' cables; a 15 footer and a 25 footer. The subs are Paradigms; Signature Servo 15s.

Again, all other components of my system were unchanged (with exception of the SSP replacing my D2). I have had much time with these components and have never had this spurious signal before the addition of the SSP.

Honestly, I didn't run the dealer's RCA cables long enough to definitely say this prevented the problem but for those few hours, it didn't happen. Last night, I had about three hours of use, and I noticed an unplanned ka-nock three times as I was watching cable, I rewound the show each time to be sure it was not part of the broadcast - which it was not.

I really think the low bass signal and the thump are parts of the same problem like the processor kicks the level up to what it should be, then a microsecond later, a line of code tells it to go back down 20db the resulting cycle produces a spike' that presents itself as a ka-thump in the speakers with my first unit, while watching a concert on DVR, the bass simply JUMPED IN I knew I wasn't getting the proper level, then I kicked in with no prompting - no setting was changed as before, I rewound the show to be sure it wasn't part of the broadcast recording. Because of that, I was sure the first unit had a short or bad connection somewhere but that was obviously not the case with the new unit, I have never had it put the proper bass level out at all thus I use the Down-Mix Variable setting and the Aux channels to get any bass at all

I appreciate your input - so any other ideas on the issue would be very welcome..!

Cheers, Mort
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post #828 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 10:47 AM
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Morty -

Just my 2 cents, but I would not be looking to this thread or other users to solve your problem. I would be working with the dealer and Classe. For the price of the 800 I would expect full service after the sale to get this issue resolved.

Until you can get this fixed (probably via firmware), why not use a Y splitter to feed your subs using the single sub out option.

I only run a single sub, and it works consistently. When I have had an occassional issue with the sub output of the 800, I found it helped to go into the sub level trim menu and select the -10dB option for a moment, then revert back to 0dB. This seemed to kick the bugs out of the system for the time being.


BTW - good to see another Seattlite. Did you get the SSP-800 from Definitive?
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post #829 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 11:31 AM
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Morty,

Based on your reply, I think the consensus about it being a software bug is probably correct, and Tim's advice is the way forward--have Classe look into it. Can you duplicate the ka-nock sound by changing the sub trim gain (0, -10, 0)? Might not happen in this case if the system inserts short mutes to hide the change.

After you get past all this stuff, I'd be keen to hear you impressions of the sound quality vs the D2, and if this is due to mainly to ACR/PEQ or other aspects of the units.
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post #830 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Morty,

Based on your reply, I think the consensus about it being a software bug is probably correct, and Tim's advice is the way forward--have Classe look into it. Can you duplicate the ka-nock sound by changing the sub trim gain (0, -10, 0)? Might not happen in this case if the system inserts short mutes to hide the change.

After you get past all this stuff, I'd be keen to hear you impressions of the sound quality vs the D2, and if this is due to mainly to ACR/PEQ or other aspects of the units.

For what is worth, I owned the D2 for about a month and I also now own the SSP-800. The D2 was paired with different speakers (Paradigm Signatures) than I have now (Wilson Benesch), but I was quite familiar with the sound of the Digms so I feel I was able to get a pretty good handle on the sound quality being contributed by the Anthem.

IME, the D2 had a somewhat dry, clynical sound. Not objectionably so, but it leaned that direction.

The SSP-800 on the other hand sounds very natural and transparent, like a very good analog piece. It also has exceptional resolution without sounding etched or bright. I can hear textures to sounds that I never knew were there, yet they are presented in a very natural sounding way. To me, the SSP-800 sounds more lifelike and less like a piece of electronic equipment if that makes sense. It does not have the warmth that prior Classe pieces have been said to have, but it isn't dry either.

It's hard to describe, because the differences in sound quality between electronics is often subtle, but I believe the SSP-800 has taken music played through my system from sounding like a high quality reproduction to sounding more like the real thing.
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post #831 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 12:59 PM
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Tim - yes, most of my system has come from Definitive over on Roosevelt Way I've been working with those guys for many years as my system has grown and evolved, and it's been a very good relationship the main reason I'm pinging you guys is to see how many other users are experiencing the problem the fact that Definitive couldn't replicate the issue with the unit I returned has everyone scratching their heads! They have been up to my place and gone over everything - TWICE, and we just can't pinpoint the bass problem. They are working with Tom at Classé (as some of the guys here are) to try to figure something out. I'm totally satisfied with their support with this problem so far - it's just a very peculiar issue; and it's taking some time to resolve!

I would insert a Y and run off a single output - if I only had one for XLR cables..! I kept thinking we'd solve the problem soon, so why go out and buy one I might have to rethink that decision

Roger - my D2 was from before the release of the ARC (Anthem Room Correction) - I think that's what you meant, yes? (If not, what is ACR/PEQ??) I was considering purchasing that as an add-on, but decided to go ahead and get the SSP-800 instead I was frustrated with the number of software upgrades with the Anthem, and hoped the Classé would be better on that front (a little disappointed there so far - to say the least!). Also, the D2 did not separate the sub outputs at all, you could not tune each independently so with the SSP having 10 dedicated channels, you should be able too again, not happening yet! HOWEVER, the overall sound is clearly better than with the D2 no question (And the D2 was no slouch! It sounded very, VERY good too) but the SSP is a clear step up if I could just get past all these new-product issues..! Morty
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post #832 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 01:33 PM
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if I could just get past all these new-product issues..! …Morty

That is what happens when you are an early adopter you have to live with the frustration that it doesn't work as promised, I stopped being a trail blazer after I acquired my Seleco, Sim2 HT300 DLP Projector for a boat load of money only to have problems after problems.... Never again, by the way it looks like Kaleidescape is coming down closer to earth withe their new system Still charge $1000 for a 1T hard Drive
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post #833 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 03:56 PM
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Thank you, Tim and Morty, for your thoughts on sound quality. Much appreciated. (Yes, I mistyped ARC.)
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post #834 of 5832 Old 03-04-2009, 05:25 PM
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Check for a ground problem. A low voltage spike will cause that knock. Do you use a power strip? Try a cheater plug on the sub and see if that helps.
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post #835 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 06:22 AM
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Big shout out to sikoniko for volunteering to spending close to 2 hours with me last night over the phone attempting to isolate the issues I've been experiencing. Helpful to have someone viewing the exact configurations, source and surrounds as well as the same material (Comcast) realtime.
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post #836 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 06:55 AM
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Big shout out to sikoniko for volunteering to spending close to 2 hours with me last night over the phone attempting to isolate the issues I've been experiencing. Helpful to have someone viewing the exact configurations, source and surrounds as well as the same material (Comcast) realtime.

I like your quote. I used it before my current one.

Thanks for the kind words and I hope we made some progress.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #837 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 09:18 AM
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I like your quote. I used it before my current one.

Thanks for the kind words and I hope we made some progress.

Whoa very nice of you, it sounds like you are doing Classé 's job
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post #838 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 10:32 AM
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ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #839 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 10:35 AM
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Whoa very nice of you, it sounds like you are doing Classé 's job

we're just comparing notes. not a big deal. you've never helped a friend before?

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #840 of 5832 Old 03-05-2009, 10:44 AM
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I have asked Dave that if it is only available for 3 subs if they can enable it when using 2 subs. I'll report back when I get some more info.

Here is the appropriate way to use 2 subs with downmix enabled:

Quote:


you would connect both subs to the AUX channels and configure the unit as if there were one subwoofer (although there would be nothing connected to the sub output). The LFE channel gets routed to the AUX outputs in addition to a full range two-channel version of all the other channels (the “down-mix). The down-mix does not have a crossover associated with it. It is full range, so the subwoofers themselves would need to supply their own crossover. You would set up the configuration for a single sub and set your crossover points to match what you have done on the subwoofers themselves. This way you aren’t reproducing the same LF from both your main speakers and the subs. 80Hz is a good frequency to use.


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