Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 34 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #991 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 07:02 AM
Advanced Member
 
owl1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

Mine screen on the SSP froze up once and I unplugged it and rebotted and it has been fine since

Wow Arnies. Mine happens vy frequently, like when I try switching inputs. Very embarassing. last night my wife and I watched a movie then she wanted to watch tv, I switched inputs and it froze. I had to get behind the unit which is in a closet I have to crawl behind to get to the rear switch - a major PITA. She sat there the whole time it was rebooting with the blue screen of death just staring, staring at the screen for what seemed like an infinity while the thing rebooted. There was also the time that I had a home theater meet when people drove from hours away to attend where sound would not come back no matter what I tried. The group watched in silence for 3 hours...
owl1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #992 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 09:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

In this thread it was said that the classe was $6000 better then the $2000 integra, I am just asking questions about that statement.


You are asking us to quantify something that is subjective and based on personal opinion. Is the SSP-800 worth $6000 more than the $2000 integra. There is no such thing as a standard of worth. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The quality of audio that the SSP-800 delivers, I think it is worth far more than Classe is selling it for, especially when compared to other more esoteric brands. It might have bumped it out of my price range, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth more or less.

So to you, it might not be worth it. Noone cares to change your mind or convince you otherwise, all we ask is that you respect that we have deemed value appreciative of the assigned cost of the SSP-800.

I know my post is pointless, and goes on deaf ears, but please leave this thread and allow us to get back to productive conversation.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #993 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 10:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother52 View Post

I hate to disagree with you Roger but you're wrong.
I don't know who you're responding too but those exact words were used a number of times, by a poster with the initials DW and only DW.

You may well be right. DW likes to set up irrelevant strawman issues no one else cares about, then proceeds to knock them down.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #994 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 10:31 AM
Advanced Member
 
owl1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Boston Area
Posts: 842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

You are asking us to quantify something that is subjective and based on personal opinion. Is the SSP-800 worth $6000 more than the $2000 integra. There is no such thing as a standard of worth. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The quality of audio that the SSP-800 delivers, I think it is worth far more than Classe is selling it for, especially when compared to other more esoteric brands. It might have bumped it out of my price range, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth more or less.

So to you, it might not be worth it. Noone cares to change your mind or convince you otherwise, all we ask is that you respect that we have deemed value appreciative of the assigned cost of the SSP-800.

I know my post is pointless, and goes on deaf ears, but please leave this thread and allow us to get back to productive conversation.

Well said, sikoniko, well said. Even with all the problems I've had with my unit, the Classe is very much a good value in my mind. I've owned many digital front ends in 2 channel systems, as well as some solid surround pre pros up to and including $40,000 DAC/transport combinations and have an extremely good experience of what very good digital can do ( I still prefer analog admittedly).

The Classe goes well beyond it's ticket of admission in performance, and is extremely satisfying to this brutally discerning ear, which by the way is all that matters to me. It can be constructed of lego pieces for all I care as long as it sounds terrific.

I have come to appreciate some posters calling manufacturers on overpriced snake oil but make your point, state your case and move on, please. It also would be helpful to others when they ask for context if you can list what experience you have had and critical evaluation of which pieces you've owned or listened to in dealer's showrooms, not just spec sheets so we can put your comments in context. If you don't have any firsthand exposure to this stuff, that's fine but then don't put yourself out there as the so called objectivist "expert". It's transparent and you're much smarter than that.

If all you know is specs and many young people today unfortunately have only heard and are very happy with their little Ipods and MP3s and have never had the opportunity to hear really good gear either through lack of local dealers or the dearth of B&M's due to the bad economy then don't come off as self satisfied whistle blower - we don't need or want that kind of "help".

If you don't think that the design and execution of an audio piece can sound different then something is sincerely wrong with you. It's all in the execution my boy. I for one would never go back to my Pioneer Elite 94TXH which is bombproof, has all the latest codecs and is now well over a year old. It is frustrating to me to deal with all these issues on the Classe and not have latest codec support when I've had them already in a very low maintenance piece for a long time already. BUT, let me tell you, there is such a wide chasm between the Pio and the Classe in the only thing that counts to me: sound quality you couldn't drag me to my basment to pull the Pio back into my main rig ever. You'd have to pry the Classe from my cold, dead hands to do so. And I'd put the Pio against that Integra piece any day of the week....
owl1 is offline  
post #995 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 04:37 PM
 
DougWinsor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


You are asking us to quantify something that is subjective and based on personal opinion. Is the SSP-800 worth $6000 more than the $2000 integra. There is no such thing as a standard of worth. Something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. The quality of audio that the SSP-800 delivers, I think it is worth far more than Classe is selling it for, especially when compared to other more esoteric brands. It might have bumped it out of my price range, but that doesn't mean that it isn't worth more or less.

So to you, it might not be worth it. Noone cares to change your mind or convince you otherwise, all we ask is that you respect that we have deemed value appreciative of the assigned cost of the SSP-800.

I know my post is pointless, and goes on deaf ears, but please leave this thread and allow us to get back to productive conversation.

Since no one can point out that the SSP-800 containes $6000 worth of better parts I will call it good for now. Remember I only asked the question when someone else made the point in the first place.
DougWinsor is offline  
post #996 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 05:48 PM
Senior Member
 
Scott Wallace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Since no one can point out that the SSP-800 containes $6000 worth of better parts I will call it good for now. Remember I only asked the question when someone else made the point in the first place.

Doug, I'm not taking my own advice here, but you have got to be the most obstinate, disagreeable, argumentative, and ill-informed person I have ever run across on the forums. And your point/question is absolutely absurd. No manufacturer puts in $8,000 worth of parts and then charges $8,000. What world are you living in? Manufacturer's arrive at a retail price based on factors like the time and money spent on R&D both for initial product and ongoing support, tooling and manufacturing, parts cost, market value of comparable product at that particular time, and then price it accordingly in order to make it a profitable venture for them. And I can answer your question - no product that costs $8,000 has anywhere near that cost in just parts. You act like a child, are wasting everyone's time, and I guess warrant being treated like a misbehaving child. Now go to your room, you're on time out.
Scott Wallace is offline  
post #997 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 07:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Since no one can point out that the SSP-800 containes $6000 worth of better parts I will call it good for now. Remember I only asked the question when someone else made the point in the first place.

its kinda like saying is the cost of a mac worth the difference you'd pay to build your own PC... some may say yes and some may say no. at the end of the day, since they both run on the same hardware now, all you are paying for is intellectual property...

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #998 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 08:11 PM
 
DougWinsor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


Doug, I'm not taking my own advice here, but you have got to be the most obstinate, disagreeable, argumentative, and ill-informed person I have ever run across on the forums. And your point/question is absolutely absurd. No manufacturer puts in $8,000 worth of parts and then charges $8,000. What world are you living in? Manufacturer's arrive at a retail price based on factors like the time and money spent on R&D both for initial product and ongoing support, tooling and manufacturing, parts cost, market value of comparable product at that particular time, and then price it accordingly in order to make it a profitable venture for them. And I can answer your question - no product that costs $8,000 has anywhere near that cost in just parts. You act like a child, are wasting everyone's time, and I guess warrant being treated like a misbehaving child. Now go to your room, you're on time out.

Why are you posting this? I was done and I was not going to ask anymore questions. I am not trying to come up with the $8000 total price but I am trying to come up with the $6000 worth of better parts over the integra.

Quote:


its kinda like saying is the cost of a mac worth the difference you'd pay to build your own PC... some may say yes and some may say no. at the end of the day, since they both run on the same hardware now, all you are paying for is intellectual property...

A lot of the PC hardware is not available for MAC systems. They have their differences but that is irrelevant to what we are talking about.
DougWinsor is offline  
post #999 of 5881 Old 03-21-2009, 10:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

I am trying to come up with the $6000 worth of better parts over the integra.

It doesn't exist, as has been stated repeatedly.

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #1000 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 11:01 AM
 
DougWinsor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,612
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


It doesn't exist, as has been stated repeatedly.

As I thought so unless someone posts another comment to me I will not ask anymore questions on the price subject.
DougWinsor is offline  
post #1001 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 11:41 AM
Senior Member
 
Scott Wallace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 392
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Why are you posting this? I was done and I was not going to ask anymore questions. I am not trying to come up with the $8000 total price but I am trying to come up with the $6000 worth of better parts over the integra.

Doug, we'll try one more time because it pains me to see this level of ignorance out there poisoning the field of public opinion....An $8,000 at retail product probably (I'm making an educated guess here, don't go quoting me that I declared this as fact) has around $1,500 or so in raw parts cost. I would guess something similar in function but that costs $2,000 has around $400 in parts cost. SO....if in a fictional scenario where the person building these two products were building it just for themselves and didn't need to recoup R&D costs, or any of the innumerable other costs that manufacturer's incur in the making and distributing and selling and support of a product, you could say that the $1,500 product had $1,100 more in parts cost, and one would think that that would translate into much better performance from the product that had spent nearly 4 times as much in raw materials.

If you resent the realities of manufacturer's needing to sustain business by making a profit, move to a country that has a political system that is not based on capitalism and that is more in line with your particular way of thinking.

NO MANUFACTURER is going to tell you or give you a list of parts, and to think that that would even do you a lick of good is preposterous.
Scott Wallace is offline  
post #1002 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 12:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Arnies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 240
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

I fully agree with all the points made here its your money and you can get whatever you like and trusting your ears/eyes/gutfeeling is the best way. But i see the argument 'we listen and then decide' but in following most/all highend threads what i see mostly a lot of preordering by fans without ever having even seen/listen or know the full specs. Infact my guess is 50% of the buys i see in these threads are on name only.

Again i don't care myself all i hope is that more highend brands make it to 2010 and solve the problems they all have clearly with hdmi and the new formats.

Daniel.

One big point that is missing you could have the greatest wiring, DACs, parts etc but if you do not put them together correctly all is lost. You are also paying for engineering , research and design.
Arnies is offline  
post #1003 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 06:38 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

One big point that is missing you could have the greatest wiring, DACs, parts etc but if you do not put them together correctly all is lost. You are also paying for engineering , research and design.

I would imagine that R&D, marketing and company overhead (high dollar engineers, etc) are the biggest factors in the price of a product... just my guess.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #1004 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 06:42 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

I would imagine that R&D, marketing and company overhead (high dollar engineers, etc) are the biggest factors in the price of a product... just my guess.

Makes sense to me. It is rarely the materials.

- Tim


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hifisponge is offline  
post #1005 of 5881 Old 03-22-2009, 07:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ehlarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 2,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

I would imagine that R&D, marketing and company overhead (high dollar engineers, etc) are the biggest factors in the price of a product... just my guess.

The things you are talking about determine the cost to make the product.

Having worked with business managers who are responsible for setting product prices, I think that the correct answer is that the price of a product is solely determined by how much you can get without hurting sales volume. A way to look at it (and they did look at it this way) is that price and cost are two completely unrelated things.

Anything less and you are leaving money on the table. That is something a business does not like to do.

"Nature Abhors a Vacuum Tube" -  
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ehlarson is offline  
post #1006 of 5881 Old 03-23-2009, 12:27 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

One big point that is missing you could have the greatest wiring, DACs, parts etc but if you do not put them together correctly all is lost. You are also paying for engineering , research and design.

I agree but don't see how that relates to my point. R&D doesn't depend on production numbers so the brands with higher production runs and that reuse the R&D for lowerend models with higher production runs have it alot easer. But my only point was that most buying doesn't really happen on compare/listen as far as i can see but on brand.

Sorry didn't want to take this thread offtopic,

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #1007 of 5881 Old 03-24-2009, 07:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Here is a very interesting article, that I think is very relevant to the discussion from EngadgetHD:

As receivers pack more features per dollar, Audioholics questions the trade-off

Quote:


One welcome trend in AV receivers is the addition of more features at lower price points. Modern, full-featured AV receivers are signal processing powerhouses, and we've come to expect HDMI switching, video processing, on-screen UIs and room correction as de rigeur features. Everyone loves these conveniences, but there's a catch -- in many cases, sound quality is what's getting left behind in the transition. Audioholics has put its hand to enough receivers to know this, and without crying foul, the linked article does a good job of keeping you informed of the tradeoffs. Bottom line -- software-laden silicon keeps getting cheaper and lighter, but the (largely analog) componentry used for audio amplification doesn't. So if your latest receiver is lighter, cheaper and sports a longer spec list, you have a good idea where designers trimmed; and it's not the S-Video ports. The differences may not be audible, but if current trends in audio are any indicator, the limit of what is "good enough" is headed for market testing. Meanwhile, take your ears along with the spec sheets if you're shopping receivers.

Entire Article

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #1008 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 02:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
fitzcaraldo215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

The HD audio codecs aren't required but are convenient and forthcoming. Video processing technologies change with the weather and serve their purpose better outside an SSP. No automation for room correction but manual PEQ is included for competent calibration. The only people interested in the SSP-800 will be those that put sound quality first and foremost in their list of priorities. While the SSP-600 is a perfect choice for SD content, the SSP-800 takes giant leap forward in support of HD content. Classe' had the everything you could want AVP but it was $25K and it never came to market. Classe' did rethink their position and made the SSP-800 everything that the SSP-900 was in terms of audio but for one third the cost. A prudent move for audio enthusiasts.

Though your moniker is RebelMan, you seem to have drunk the Classe Kool-Aid. I highly respect Classe’s analog products. With their digital products, like AVP’s, it is another matter. I almost bought a 600 a couple of years ago until I realized where Home Theater was headed. That then obsolescent unit would have been a colossal waste of money as things have evolved. I have been monitoring "progress" or the lack of it on the 800, and it confirms my worst fears about Classe. They are not alone in struggling and underperforming on essential features, supposedly great engineering team aside. Look at Krell, Theta or even Meridian. They are all seemingly incapable of keeping up with the state of the art features-wise. What they offer instead is the traditional high end mythology about "better sound quality", but at a rather huge price differential. Maybe they are somewhat better sonically, but how much better and at what added cost? The prospects are also that owners will be doing a lot of upgrading, circuit board swapouts, etc. to get these units fully and properly functioning. Hopefully, they will not follow in the footsteps of Levinson, whose previous generation flagship processor never did work properly, insanely expensive as it was.

By the way, what really turns me off about Classe are the rationalizations that "you do not really need such and such", like video processing or other features, stuff they cannot provide. Dave Nauber at Classe tried to do this with me about the 600, until I realized he was trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Anthem was also doing this for awhile on their website, but finally with the D2V they have something up to date.

There is no doubt that Classe can deliver wonderful sound from analog inputs. But, why pay $8k for a Mch analog line stage and HDMI switch? An Audio Research plus an Oppo HDMI switch would be a whole lot less. Placette will even make a very transparent, passive Mch line stage for you. I am not sure, though, that any AVP with all that digital EMI/RFI inside, like the 800, can compete with a true all-analog line stage for the best in analog sound. I solved this for vinyl by using my Levinson line stage with Home Theater pass-through.

Which brings me to room EQ. Sorry, but I must respectfully and totally disagree that a competent calibrator with several bands of graphic or parametric EQ available on the 800 can do what Audyssey or ARC can do. Audyssey, which I am most familiar with, provides hundreds of filters per channel, linearizing the frequency domain while simultaneously eliminating time domain non-linearities, frequency by frequency and at multiple calibration points. It does so losslessly in the DSP. I am 100% sold on it. I would never again be without it or something comparable, like ARC. Those two are the only capable choices today, though some others like Trinnov may be lurking in the wings. Audyssey or ARC can considerably elevate the quality of sound at your ears, where it really matters. I also believe they can improve even an expertly treated room. Automatic, DSP-based, target curve EQ is an honest to God audio breakthrough. Among a whole host of positives, you have not heard top-notch subwoofer integration unless are using one of these two auto room EQ systems. It, to me, makes claims of superior sound by those who do not have the capability rather hollow. Of course, being able to calibrate yourself comes in quite handy if you change equipment or move furniture. It’s not fun calling your calibrator back each time and paying for it to boot.

I am as fanatical about sound as anybody. Most of the use of my system, which I have invested considerable sums in, is for music only. But, as of right now, to me the only reasonably complete and competent processors appear to be the Anthem D2V, the Denon and the lowly Integra, which I own and am delighted with for under $2k in my $65K or so MSRP system.
fitzcaraldo215 is online now  
post #1009 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 04:44 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Which brings me to room EQ. Sorry, but I must respectfully and totally disagree that a competent calibrator with several bands of graphic or parametric EQ available on the 800 can do what Audyssey or ARC can do. Audyssey, which I am most familiar with, provides hundreds of filters per channel, linearizing the frequency domain while simultaneously eliminating time domain non-linearities, frequency by frequency and at multiple calibration points. It does so losslessly in the DSP. I am 100% sold on it.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you’ve been drinking a bit of the Kool-aide too, only the flavor is provided by Audyssey and their marketing team rather than Classe.

I owned the stand-alone Audyssey Pro EQ for about a year, and I can get just as good if not subjectively better results with the five bands of EQ per channel in the SSP-800 and measuring my room with audio analysis software. I don’t like Audyssey’s one-size fits all approach to the target curve, and since you have no control over it, it doesn’t matter to me how much more accurate it is supposed to be than PEQ.

You are also a bit confused about what Audyssey is capable of and how it works. It does not have “hundreds of filters” per channel, it takes hundreds of sample points of the signal from which it constructs a single inverse filter. I find it ironic that Audyssey touts the precision of their filters, when they are correcting the average response from multiple positions. Do you need a precise filter to correct an average? And Audyssey does nothing more in the “time domain” than PEQ. Yes, when you cut a peak in the frequency response that also has delayed energy associated with it, you reduce the ringing at that frequency by association. But Audyssey does not seek to reduce room resonances it only happens by coincidence. With a manual PEQ however, if I wanted to I could notch out a room resonance with a single filter, and this decision can be made separate from considerations made to the frequency response.

In regards to the features in the SSP-800, I have no need for a video scaler since my TV already has a good one in it, and besides, I only care about picture quality when watching HD content, for which no scaler is needed. So I’m thankful that Classe didn’t include a feature that is largely becoming irrelevant, because as you put it, who needs another EMF/RFI generating device in the same box that would corrupt the audio signal purity?

And for the record, I do not have a single analog device connected to the SSP-800. It is a digital signal processor, with a focus on sound quality, which is exactly what I use it for—its ability to produce and analog signal from a digital one. I’ve owned the Anthem D2, and to these ears, the Classe does a better job at this task.

I knew what I was getting with the Classe, as incomplete and incompetent as it may seem to you, and it suits my needs just fine. And, hey, if the Integra does it for you, well then we’re all happy.

- Tim


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hifisponge is offline  
post #1010 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 05:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,456
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

I don't like Audyssey's one-size fits all approach to the target curve, and since you have no control over it, it doesn't matter to me how much more accurate it is supposed to be than PEQ.

No longer so. You can manipulate the target curve with AudysseyPro v3.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1011 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 05:16 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

No longer so. You can manipulate the target curve with AudysseyPro v3.

Good to know, but I assume you will still have to have a "backstage pass" (a license key and the proprietary measuring tools and software) to access that functionality?

- Tim


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hifisponge is offline  
post #1012 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 06:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Though your moniker is RebelMan, you seem to have drunk the Classe Kool-Aid. I highly respect Classe's analog products. With their digital products, like AVP's, it is another matter. I almost bought a 600 a couple of years ago until I realized where Home Theater was headed. That then obsolescent unit would have been a colossal waste of money as things have evolved. I have been monitoring "progress" or the lack of it on the 800, and it confirms my worst fears about Classe. They are not alone in struggling and underperforming on essential features, supposedly great engineering team aside. Look at Krell, Theta or even Meridian. They are all seemingly incapable of keeping up with the state of the art features-wise. What they offer instead is the traditional high end mythology about "better sound quality", but at a rather huge price differential. Maybe they are somewhat better sonically, but how much better and at what added cost? The prospects are also that owners will be doing a lot of upgrading, circuit board swapouts, etc. to get these units fully and properly functioning. Hopefully, they will not follow in the footsteps of Levinson, whose previous generation flagship processor never did work properly, insanely expensive as it was.

By the way, what really turns me off about Classe are the rationalizations that "you do not really need such and such", like video processing or other features, stuff they cannot provide. Dave Nauber at Classe tried to do this with me about the 600, until I realized he was trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Anthem was also doing this for awhile on their website, but finally with the D2V they have something up to date.

There is no doubt that Classe can deliver wonderful sound from analog inputs. But, why pay $8k for a Mch analog line stage and HDMI switch? An Audio Research plus an Oppo HDMI switch would be a whole lot less. Placette will even make a very transparent, passive Mch line stage for you. I am not sure, though, that any AVP with all that digital EMI/RFI inside, like the 800, can compete with a true all-analog line stage for the best in analog sound. I solved this for vinyl by using my Levinson line stage with Home Theater pass-through.

Which brings me to room EQ. Sorry, but I must respectfully and totally disagree that a competent calibrator with several bands of graphic or parametric EQ available on the 800 can do what Audyssey or ARC can do. Audyssey, which I am most familiar with, provides hundreds of filters per channel, linearizing the frequency domain while simultaneously eliminating time domain non-linearities, frequency by frequency and at multiple calibration points. It does so losslessly in the DSP. I am 100% sold on it. I would never again be without it or something comparable, like ARC. Those two are the only capable choices today, though some others like Trinnov may be lurking in the wings. Audyssey or ARC can considerably elevate the quality of sound at your ears, where it really matters. I also believe they can improve even an expertly treated room. Automatic, DSP-based, target curve EQ is an honest to God audio breakthrough. Among a whole host of positives, you have not heard top-notch subwoofer integration unless are using one of these two auto room EQ systems. It, to me, makes claims of superior sound by those who do not have the capability rather hollow. Of course, being able to calibrate yourself comes in quite handy if you change equipment or move furniture. It's not fun calling your calibrator back each time and paying for it to boot.

I am as fanatical about sound as anybody. Most of the use of my system, which I have invested considerable sums in, is for music only. But, as of right now, to me the only reasonably complete and competent processors appear to be the Anthem D2V, the Denon and the lowly Integra, which I own and am delighted with for under $2k in my $65K or so MSRP system.

thanks for your rant. we didnt ask for it.

so you don't like it... so what. we do. the difference between us and you is that we have heard it - you haven't. and under your current paradigm, you shouldn't. classe is not targetting you as a customer. now move along.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #1013 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 07:15 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,456
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

No longer so. You can manipulate the target curve with AudysseyPro v3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Good to know, but I assume you will still have to have a "backstage pass" (a license key and the proprietary measuring tools and software) to access that functionality?

That's what is meant by AudysseyPro.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1014 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 08:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
ehlarson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Central New Jersey
Posts: 2,241
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Good to know, but I assume you will still have to have a "backstage pass" (a license key and the proprietary measuring tools and software) to access that functionality?

For what it is worth Anthem does not place any limitations on ARC use by end users, and that includes being able to develop custom curves.

"Nature Abhors a Vacuum Tube" -  
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
ehlarson is offline  
post #1015 of 5881 Old 03-25-2009, 09:01 PM
AVS Special Member
 
hifisponge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Redmond, WA
Posts: 7,516
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

For what it is worth Anthem does not place any limitations on ARC use by end users, and that includes being able to develop custom curves.

Yeah, I have to admit, I wish Classe had implemented something like the ARC. I think I could put that system to good use.

- Tim


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
hifisponge is offline  
post #1016 of 5881 Old 03-26-2009, 06:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sikoniko's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,068
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Yeah, I have to admit, I wish Classe had implemented something like the ARC. I think I could put that system to good use.

The D2 is conceptually a fantastic product, and something I wish a lot more companies wished to do. The modular, and upgradable capabilities certainly add a lot of value. It's just unfortunate that it doesn't sound anywhere as nice as the Classe IMO.

On the flip side, I asked Dave about building a modular product and he is gunshy for a few reasons, the biggest because of past experiences he had at Madrigol.

I don't particularly understand people these days. Noone would walk into a corvette dealership and say, its nice, but I want room for my chauffeure to drive me around while I relax in the back seat, and I want it to handle like a ferrari around corners and ride like a cadillac or its the biggest waiste of money and an insult to every consumer out there. Why do they think its any different in any other industry?

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
sikoniko is offline  
post #1017 of 5881 Old 03-26-2009, 07:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
LEVESQUE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,019
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

The D2 is conceptually a fantastic product, and something I wish a lot more companies wished to do. The modular, and upgradable capabilities certainly add a lot of value. It's just unfortunate that it doesn't sound anywhere as nice as the Classe IMO.

It's only your subjective opinion. 2 of my friends live near Classe's office and regularly write review for Classe products, but they both own a Anthem D2v now... even after trying the new Classe.

They both prefered the sound of the D2v after comparing them in the same system and room.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
LEVESQUE is offline  
post #1018 of 5881 Old 03-26-2009, 07:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,456
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 77 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by ehlarson View Post

For what it is worth Anthem does not place any limitations on ARC use by end users, and that includes being able to develop custom curves.

Can you tell me how you can customize targets in ARC? All I can see as adjustments are RoomGain and limiting the upper end of the correction curve. Is there a curve edit function that I missed?

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #1019 of 5881 Old 03-26-2009, 08:00 AM
AVS Special Member
 
fitzcaraldo215's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,005
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


You are also a bit confused about what Audyssey is capable of and how it works. It does not have hundreds of filters per channel, it takes hundreds of sample points of the signal from which it constructs a single inverse filter. I find it ironic that Audyssey touts the precision of their filters, when they are correcting the average response from multiple positions. Do you need a precise filter to correct an average? And Audyssey does nothing more in the time domain than PEQ. Yes, when you cut a peak in the frequency response that also has delayed energy associated with it, you reduce the ringing at that frequency by association. But Audyssey does not seek to reduce room resonances it only happens by coincidence. With a manual PEQ however, if I wanted to I could notch out a room resonance with a single filter, and this decision can be made separate from considerations made to the frequency response.


Sorry you have had a disappointing experience with Audyssey. My experience has been totally the opposite. Some have had a disappointing experience either through a calibration error or because they prefer some other response curve rather than the smooth one Audyssey generates. The latter problem can now be addressed by Audyssey Pro 3.0, which allows you to draw your own frequency response curve.

It's clear that your understanding of Audyssey is flawed. Just to set the record straight, it does in fact, per Chris Kyriakakis, CTO of Audyssey, generate hundreds of filters per channel, not one as you suggest. Ask him yourself via the Official Audyssey thread, though he has answered this before. I have been through just about every page of that forum.

It also does, in fact, work in the time domain to eliminate response irregularities there.

Single point mike calibrations are highly flawed. An average of multiple points is much more accurate. You will note that published speaker response measurements are always multipoint. Otherwise, they would be worthless. Audyssey has no problem with taking multiple measurements either in a tight one seat area or a multi-row home theater area. Yes, you do need a precise filter even to properly correct an average.

Audyssey does in fact seek to reduce frequency irregularities from room modes and nulls, and it does so quite well, though some rooms with severe ringing are beyond its abilities without expert treatments. Audyssey acknowledges this.

It is not possible to "notch out" a single room resonance without regard to frequency response. The resonance is itself a frequency response irregularity. We would all be fortunate if our rooms and speakers generated only one response peak or dip.
fitzcaraldo215 is online now  
post #1020 of 5881 Old 03-26-2009, 09:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,580
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 478 Post(s)
Liked: 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEVESQUE View Post

It's only your subjective opinion. 2 of my friends live near Classe's office and regularly write review for Classe products, but they both own a Anthem D2v now... even after trying the new Classe.

They both prefered the sound of the D2v after comparing them in the same system and room.

I would luv to read their reviews of the SSP-800 and how they went about tuning the GEQs. Are they posted somewhere? If not, what is the publication?

Roger

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Roger Dressler is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Classe

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off