Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 57 - AVS Forum
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post #1681 of 5913 Old 11-09-2009, 04:47 PM
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Mike -

I haven't heard the Denon, but here is some objective findings on the Classe and the Denon that you might find helpful.

Jitter level comparison (lower is better):

Jitter with SPDIF input:
10ps Classe SSP800
15ps DCS Scarlatti
37ps Pioneer SC-LX81
40ps Cambridge DACMagic
50ps Arcam AVR600
121ps Sony SCD-XA5400ES
183ps Yamaha RX-V3900
250ps Denon 2500/AVP-A1
430ps Onkyo PR-SC886
470ps Onkyo TX-NR906
485ps Audiolab 8000AP
560ps Denon 3808A

Jitter with HDMI input:
5ps Arcam AVR600
21ps Classe SSP800
50ps Pioneer SC-LX81
200ps Sony XA5400ES HATS on
2200ps Denon 2500/AVP-A1
3700ps Denon 3808A
3860ps Onkyo TX-NR906
3920ps Onkyo PR-SC886
7660ps Yamaha RX-V3900
8000ps Sony XA5400ES HATS off
8490ps Audiolab 8000AP

HDMI is notorious for high levels of jitter-- in the thousands of psecs on average, so just 21 psecs of jitter through HDMI on the SSP-800 is stellar performance.

While the threshhold for the audibility of jitter is often debated, it is good to see some objective validation of the SSP-800's performance.

HFN technical review:




FWIW - I chose the SPP-800 over the Anthem Statement D2, and the Lexicon MC12HD.
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post #1682 of 5913 Old 11-09-2009, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post

Three pre-pros are on my short list: Denon AVP, Classe CT-SSP, and McIntosh MX150. Thoughts/opinions?

When it comes to comparing sound quality, where does one draw the line? For example, there's decoding, processing, and conversion in the signal path. I don't find much to choose in decoding--they do it or they don't, and regardless, they sound the same whether the decoding's in the player or the AV processor.

The DACs are a major factor in the sonics. But equally, or maybe moreso, the processing--to wit, EQ. Denon has Audyssey, Classe has PEQ. Chalk and cheese. (Not sure about the MX150.) This was a key factor in my decision, as I could not figure out how to tweak the sonics sufficiently to taste using any proc with MultEQ or ARC. Seems like once they go with room EQ, there's little interest in providing flexible tone controls.

Having never heard accurate sound, I was in no position to assume it would be satisfying under my playback conditions (inaccurate source material played 10-20 dB below reference level). I simply couldn't risk a proc that offered inadequate tone facilities. And I no longer wanted to run analog EQs into the power amps--so it had to be on-board the processor. The SSP was the last man standing.

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AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #1683 of 5913 Old 11-09-2009, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Mike -



Jitter with HDMI input:
5ps Arcam AVR600
21ps Classe SSP800

HDMI is notorious for high levels of jitter-- in the thousands of psecs on average, so just 21 psecs of jitter through HDMI on the SSP-800 is stellar performance.

While the threshhold for the audibility of jitter is often debated, it is good to see some objective validation of the SSP-800's performance.


FWIW - I chose the SPP-800 over the Anthem Statement D2, and the Lexicon MC12HD.

Thanks Tim -- that is astondingly low jitter -- amazing and your choice of the SSP-800 oveer the D2 and Lex says a lot.

MikeSp

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #1684 of 5913 Old 11-09-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When it comes to comparing sound quality, where does one draw the line? For example, there's decoding, processing, and conversion in the signal path. I don't find much to choose in decoding--they do it or they don't, and regardless, they sound the same whether the decoding's in the player or the AV processor.

The DACs are a major factor in the sonics. But equally, or maybe moreso, the processing--to wit, EQ. Denon has Audyssey, Classe has PEQ. Chalk and cheese. (Not sure about the MX150.) This was a key factor in my decision, as I could not figure out how to tweak the sonics sufficiently to taste using any proc with MultEQ or ARC. Seems like once they go with room EQ, there's little interest in providing flexible tone controls.

Having never heard accurate sound, I was in no position to assume it would be satisfying under my playback conditions (inaccurate source material played 10-20 dB below reference level). I simply couldn't risk a proc that offered inadequate tone facilities. And I no longer wanted to run analog EQs into the power amps--so it had to be on-board the processor. The SSP was the last man standing.

Good solid reasoning--thanks.

BTW -- the MX150, if it ever sees the light of day (seems that there allegedly is a parts supplier problem due to the economy and Mc's are put together in New York state) it will have Lyngdorf RoomPerfect EQ which allegedly is as good as it gets but time will tell -- if and when it ever reaches the marketplace at $12000. Thus the famous quality of Classe analog two channel as well as the great HT features have my interests piqued.

MikeSp

Pioneer Elite Kuro, McIntosh amplifiers -- MC501 monos (3) and MC352's (2), McIntosh MX150 pre-pro; Oppo 83SE; speakers -- Aerial Acoustics Model 9's for mains and CC5 for center, Def Tech BPVX/P's and BPVX's for surrounds and JL F113's (2) for subs; Roku 3; PS3; Wiii; Tivos; and Monster HTPS...
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post #1685 of 5913 Old 11-09-2009, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSp View Post

Good solid reasoning--thanks.

BTW -- the MX150, if it ever sees the light of day (seems that there allegedly is a parts supplier problem due to the economy and Mc's are put together in New York state) it will have Lyngdorf RoomPerfect EQ which allegedly is as good as it gets but time will tell -- if and when it ever reaches the marketplace at $12000. Thus the famous quality of Classe analog two channel as well as the great HT features have my interests piqued.

While it is only alluded, Lyngdorf is, by my estimation, RC6 in this thread. In other words, the least effective in flattening room response. Now to be fair, that may be a result of forcing a specific value system onto something that was designed with a rather different set of goals.

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AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #1686 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Mike -

I haven't heard the Denon, but here is some objective findings on the Classe and the Denon that you might find helpful.

Jitter level comparison (lower is better):

Jitter with SPDIF input:
10ps Classe SSP800
15ps DCS Scarlatti
37ps Pioneer SC-LX81
40ps Cambridge DACMagic
50ps Arcam AVR600
121ps Sony SCD-XA5400ES
183ps Yamaha RX-V3900
250ps Denon 2500/AVP-A1
430ps Onkyo PR-SC886
470ps Onkyo TX-NR906
485ps Audiolab 8000AP
560ps Denon 3808A

Jitter with HDMI input:
5ps Arcam AVR600
21ps Classe SSP800
50ps Pioneer SC-LX81
200ps Sony XA5400ES HATS on
2200ps Denon 2500/AVP-A1
3700ps Denon 3808A
3860ps Onkyo TX-NR906
3920ps Onkyo PR-SC886
7660ps Yamaha RX-V3900
8000ps Sony XA5400ES HATS off
8490ps Audiolab 8000AP

Ive seen this list posted now multiple times, and ill ask again how/why is the test different for the avp and the others. The AVP is tested with the 2500BT player while the rest is tested alone. How is this tested and why is the avp only tested this way ? Seems weird. Also if you feel jitter is that important why not test using the interface denon designed for master/slave control ?. Like they did with the sony. Using that it seems (can't remember where ive seen it tested, sorry) drops down to 46ps.


Daniel.

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post #1687 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 04:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Jose View Post

The SSP-800's preamp section is very, very good. So good that I'm debating whether to sell my 2ch pre or not. Both units are excellent for HT.

HI, I am Salvatore from Italy...and this is the my first post in this beautiful forum. Excuse me for my english (very small).

I am changing my system from 2 ch to 5,1 channel...I can say that I have ordered my new preamplifier.... it will replace my old preamplifier 2 ch, an Mark Levinson Ref. 32 ...the SSP-800 is very vey good !!!
(unfortunately I must at least wait for 20 days for the arrival of SSP-800 because they are delivering new units with HD decod.)


http://www.milossaluciano.com/salvatore%20ciriolo.htm
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post #1688 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ciriolo View Post

HI, I am Salvatore from Italy...and this is the my first post in this beautiful forum. Excuse me for my english (very small).

I am changing my system from 2 ch to 5,1 channel...I can say that I have ordered my new preamplifier.... it will replace my old preamplifier 2 ch, an Mark Levinson Ref. 32 ...the SSP-800 is very vey good !!!
(unfortunately I must at least wait for 20 days for the arrival of SSP-800 because they are delivering new units with HD decod.)

Ciao Salvatore, benvenuto-

It will be worth the wait. I couldn't be happier with mine. I've replaced several processors over the last couple of years and it stops with the Classe for me.

Buona fortuna,

Tony

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Owner, AudioXtream.
Authorized Dealer for Kef, Triad, Bryston, Auralic, Audeze, Grado, Audioquest, Marantz

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post #1689 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 07:13 AM
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Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Ive seen this list posted now multiple times, and ill ask again how/why is the test different for the avp and the others. The AVP is tested with the 2500BT player while the rest is tested alone. How is this tested and why is the avp only tested this way ? Seems weird. Also if you feel jitter is that important why not test using the interface denon designed for master/slave control ?. Like they did with the sony. Using that it seems (can't remember where ive seen it tested, sorry) drops down to 46ps.


Daniel.

to be fair, wouldnt those questions be better served by those who performed the test, instead of those that are observing the results?

The classe results are also pre-Dual DSP, so it is also possible, per classe, that performance could be better now.

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post #1690 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Ive seen this list posted now multiple times, and ill ask again how/why is the test different for the avp and the others. The AVP is tested with the 2500BT player while the rest is tested alone. How is this tested and why is the avp only tested this way ? Seems weird. Also if you feel jitter is that important why not test using the interface denon designed for master/slave control ?. Like they did with the sony. Using that it seems (can't remember where ive seen it tested, sorry) drops down to 46ps.


Daniel.

I wasn't aware of that difference in testing. Frankly, I don't know how important jitter is anyway, it was just some objective info that seemed interesting to me since Classe had obviously made some effort to make the digital path in the SSP-800 as tidy as possible. If anything, it shows their attention to detail and quality execution.
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post #1691 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 11:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While it is only alluded, Lyngdorf is, by my estimation, RC6 in this thread. In other words, the least effective in flattening room response. Now to be fair, that may be a result of forcing a specific value system onto something that was designed with a rather different set of goals.

That is surprising given Lyngdorf's / Tact's history. Any idea which systems RC3 and RC5 represent?
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post #1692 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

to be fair, wouldnt those questions be better served by those who performed the test, instead of those that are observing the results?

The classe results are also pre-Dual DSP, so it is also possible, per classe, that performance could be better now.

As far as i know nobody did the test, its a list of combined places. And i think my questions are at least valid but my aim is not to dirty this nice Classe 800 thread in any way but do feel to react every time this list is used and point out its unclear. For example in combo with the A1UD (talked about in this thread) the numbers are (tested by hifi-news) :

125ps denonlink (so hdmi+dl)
30ps internal (analog out)
1360ps hdmi (no master/slave) correction.

Again not my goal to take over this thread, but if you select your pre/pro on the base of jitter it might be a good idea to make sure what is tested. Personally i think the 800 has more then enough selling points that this should not be the overal factor to select/refuse it from a shortlist.

Daniel.

PS: i don't claim to know how these are tested i would infact be interested how this is done and what is normally used as input and output, Seems to me that the results are so different its not done in a standard way.

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post #1693 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 12:57 PM
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Ciao Salvatore, benvenuto-



Buona fortuna,

Tony

Thanks Tony


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post #1694 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Ciriolo View Post

HI, I am Salvatore from Italy...and this is the my first post in this beautiful forum. Excuse me for my english (very small).

I am changing my system from 2 ch to 5,1 channel...I can say that I have ordered my new preamplifier.... it will replace my old preamplifier 2 ch, an Mark Levinson Ref. 32 ...the SSP-800 is very vey good !!!
(unfortunately I must at least wait for 20 days for the arrival of SSP-800 because they are delivering new units with HD decod.)

Hi Salvatore,

Hmmm, very interesting. Yes, the Classe is very good but maybe the Placette has a special synergy with components in my system. Maybe I'll give the Classe another go this weekend for 2ch, just to see... Selling the Placette makes my system simpler but that last 10% is very important to me.

Waiting 20 days is not that bad. I waited almost 6 weeks. May I ask what area the Classe was better in than the Ref. 32?

Jose.
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post #1695 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jose View Post

May I ask what area the Classe was better in than the Ref. 32?


Hi Jose,
I have not asserted that the classe is better of the 32 (in some area).
I have I only dictate that the classe ssp-800 has not made me to cry the sale of my old ref.32


excuse me my bad english.
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Originally Posted by Ciriolo View Post

Hi Jose,
I have not asserted that the classe is better of the 32 (in some area).
I have I only dictate that the classe ssp-800 has not made me to cry the sale of my old ref.32


excuse me my bad english.

Ciao Sal,

Non ti preoccupare, perche 'e piu intressante, al meno per me.

Forza e in boca a'lupo.

Ciao

Fury
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Originally Posted by Ciriolo View Post

Hi Jose,
I have not asserted that the classe is better of the 32 (in some area).
I have I only dictate that the classe ssp-800 has not made me to cry the sale of my old ref.32


excuse me my bad english.

Good enough. Thanks.

Jose.
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post #1698 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post

Ciao Sal,

Non ti preoccupare, perche 'e piu intressante, al meno per me.

Forza e in boca a'lupo.

Ciao

Fury

Ciao , I am content that someone speaks Italian...
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post #1699 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

That is surprising given Lyngdorf's / Tact's history. Any idea which systems RC3 and RC5 represent?

This is my opinion: RC3=ARC, RC5=Audyssey.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
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post #1700 of 5913 Old 11-10-2009, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When it comes to comparing sound quality, where does one draw the line? For example, there's decoding, processing, and conversion in the signal path. I don't find much to choose in decoding--they do it or they don't, and regardless, they sound the same whether the decoding's in the player or the AV processor.

The DACs are a major factor in the sonics. But equally, or maybe moreso, the processing--to wit, EQ. Denon has Audyssey, Classe has PEQ. Chalk and cheese. (Not sure about the MX150.) This was a key factor in my decision, as I could not figure out how to tweak the sonics sufficiently to taste using any proc with MultEQ or ARC. Seems like once they go with room EQ, there's little interest in providing flexible tone controls.

Having never heard accurate sound, I was in no position to assume it would be satisfying under my playback conditions (inaccurate source material played 10-20 dB below reference level). I simply couldn't risk a proc that offered inadequate tone facilities. And I no longer wanted to run analog EQs into the power amps--so it had to be on-board the processor. The SSP was the last man standing.

I'm curious, how do you use the EQ in your 800? For room correction, or as sophisticated "tone controls"? And what do you mean by "innaccurate source material"? How would you know?
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post #1701 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 09:35 AM
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I am still "on the fence" as to buy the 800 or keep waiting. It will be replacing my Audio Research LS25 MKII. I still listen to music occasionally and need a "all in one" pre/pro. For those of you that have this unit are you happy with it's 2 channel music playback? How does it compare sonically to a seperate dedicated 2 channel preamp? I'm sure it will equal or better my Denon 3808CI for movie/multi channel playback?
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post #1702 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I am still "on the fence" as to buy the 800 or keep waiting. It will be replacing my Audio Research LS25 MKII. I still listen to music occasionally and need a "all in one" pre/pro. For those of you that have this unit are you happy with it's 2 channel music playback? How does it compare sonically to a seperate dedicated 2 channel preamp? I'm sure it will equal or better my Denon 3808CI for movie/multi channel playback?

You are not asking this question to the right crowd. Classe owners will say they love their product. Then ask the same question to the AVP crowd and they will say they love AVP. Theta crowd will say they love Casablanca.

There is a good level of brand loyalty here in AVS
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post #1703 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I am still "on the fence" as to buy the 800 or keep waiting. It will be replacing my Audio Research LS25 MKII. I still listen to music occasionally and need a "all in one" pre/pro. For those of you that have this unit are you happy with it's 2 channel music playback? How does it compare sonically to a seperate dedicated 2 channel preamp? I'm sure it will equal or better my Denon 3808CI for movie/multi channel playback?

I am somewhat on the fence in getting this pre/pro for a different reason. Based on the research I have done so far, I don't doubt that this is probably the best pre/pro out there for the money. I am having a little problem justifying it because I already have a good source component (A1UDCI) that does all the hd bd audio decoding internally and a pretty decent m/c pre-amp that also performs very good for 2-channel (Parasound Halo P7). The problem I have is no dolby digital surround for satellite viewing. I can accomplish this with just an inexpenxive pre/pro utilizing my pre-amp's Theater Bypass mode. Of course my system wouldn't be as streamlined as I would like having an extra a/v piece in the equation, and space is a factor. And like you, I beleive the Classe SSP800 would be better for bluray movies especially one's with a lot of LFE output.
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post #1704 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 12:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I am still "on the fence" as to buy the 800 or keep waiting. It will be replacing my Audio Research LS25 MKII. I still listen to music occasionally and need a "all in one" pre/pro. For those of you that have this unit are you happy with it's 2 channel music playback? How does it compare sonically to a seperate dedicated 2 channel preamp? I'm sure it will equal or better my Denon 3808CI for movie/multi channel playback?

HD Newbie is right that since this is a Classe SSP-800 thread, you will likely hear the praises of the SSP. However, I can tell you that prior to the Classe I strongly considered a Weiss Dac2 and Perfectwave DAC and got the opportunity to audition them alongside the Classe. I anticipated that both those units would be head and shoulders above the Classe for 2 channel playback but to my surprise they were not. In fact, I considered them all different but not necessarily better. The Classe did not give up anything in terms of transparency or emotional engagement when listening to 2 channel music. There are few absolutes but I would be very very surprised if there are any people that would argue the 2 channel playback is anything less than superb on the Classe SSP-800 after hearing it. I can understand arguments for Auto-EQ, more inputs, etc...

Simply put, the Classe excels for 2 channel playback (especially if you connect to it digitally). As for movies, to my ears it does a great job, but I personally feel most avrs and pre/pro + amps do movie audio competently (coming from Marantz 8003, Integra 9.9 and Arcam AVR600 they all would have kept me happy for strictly HT playback.)
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post #1705 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

You are not asking this question to the right crowd. Classe owners will say they love their product. Then ask the same question to the AVP crowd and they will say they love AVP. Theta crowd will say they love Casablanca.

There is a good level of brand loyalty here in AVS

I'm not loyal to any brand, but I do still think the Classe is the best prepro I've ever owned.

I went from Denon, to Anthem Statement, to Lexicon, to Classe. But to each their own, and for each a different path.
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post #1706 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 01:43 PM
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Hi CHJO100,

i have the Arcam 600 and a Halo A51, biamping Sa pair of Salk Ht3's and I have to say that there is excellent synergy there. Do you have any way of characterizing the improvement that I could expect with the audio from the Classe? I must say that the price point without video processing is something else. Is the SQ THAT much better? Tony, care to chime in?

Thank you very much

Fury
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post #1707 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I am still "on the fence" as to buy the 800 or keep waiting. It will be replacing my Audio Research LS25 MKII. I still listen to music occasionally and need a "all in one" pre/pro. For those of you that have this unit are you happy with it's 2 channel music playback? How does it compare sonically to a seperate dedicated 2 channel preamp? I'm sure it will equal or better my Denon 3808CI for movie/multi channel playback?

Sharp1080 - I auditioned to LS26 for several weeks as I was considering a seperate 2 channel pre when I had my Arcam. When I finally had an opportunity to audition the Classe, I kept it for both 2 channel and home theater. Didn't feel the need for a seperate 2 channel pre.

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post #1708 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post

Hi CHJO100,

i have the Arcam 600 and a Halo A51, biamping Sa pair of Salk Ht3's and I have to say that there is excellent synergy there. Do you have any way of characterizing the improvement that I could expect with the audio from the Classe? I must say that the price point without video processing is something else. Is the SQ THAT much better? Tony, care to chime in?

Thank you very much

Fury

Hi Fury,

I had your exact setup. I have the JC-1's for the L/R but also the A51 and did try the Arcam AVR600 with the internal amps and the Halo A51. They both worked great. I didn't have much to complain about the Arcam for 2 channel music. It was clean and dynamic but did not engage me. I attribute it to what I would characterize as a slight coolness, glare and hardness to the sound. What the Classe did was just shave that right off to give me a open, transparent, and what I feel is a completely unencumbered sound. It just sounds natural to me and that was what I was seeking. At least this was my experience so please apply all the usual caveats (YMMV, IMO etc...)
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post #1709 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Srgtfury View Post

Hi CHJO100,

i have the Arcam 600 and a Halo A51, biamping Sa pair of Salk Ht3's and I have to say that there is excellent synergy there. Do you have any way of characterizing the improvement that I could expect with the audio from the Classe? I must say that the price point without video processing is something else. Is the SQ THAT much better? Tony, care to chime in?

Thank you very much

Fury

Funny, looks like our speakers have a similar form factor. http://eficion.com/f300.html
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post #1710 of 5913 Old 11-12-2009, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by hd_newbie View Post

You are not asking this question to the right crowd. Classe owners will say they love their product. Then ask the same question to the AVP crowd and they will say they love AVP. Theta crowd will say they love Casablanca.

There is a good level of brand loyalty here in AVS

I think for the price range we are talking about its less then for the lower range, many have owned all/most of the brands. I own a avp and poa but think the classe 800 and anthem d2v would be on my short-list if i was forced to pick today. Fact is that only a few so far are stable enough to be on shortlists imho.

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