Official Classe SSP-800 thread. - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #151 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

What I find amusing is all this contention over a product that has not been released.

'nuff said!

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post #152 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

You can run but you can't hide. LOL


I'm not running, I'm not hiding. I'm right here.

Either you can't read or you must be on Classe's payroll. You represent the worst of this hobby. The self proclaimed "high end" elitist that won't listen to anything but what they want to hear or believe.

Be honest? What does that infer? That I'm just here to raise crap?
Here's the reality my friend, I came in here with my typical curiosity about all things audio/video - stated an opinion and promptly got roll-eyes responses and vehement defenses to allegations I never made...

I used the Denon as a reference to feature sets in general - at no point did I say - or infer - that it would be a better product sound wise because at this point I haven't heard either. Also at no time did I say, or infer the Classe was crap. All I did was question why Classe would choose not to use a Room EQ and more importantly why they would use such a lame excuse in their defense of that decision.
Then the great Classe army came goose-stepping into the mix to stomp out the evil dissenter!!

I'd love stay and discuss the merits of any digital room EQ, or why certain features are added or omitted but I'm afraid it would be pointless because what ever Classe does will be the only right thing in some peoples minds on this thread.
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post #153 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

And you think that a 5 band PEQ is simpler to optimize and will generate fewer support calls. The way to resolve the latter would be to exclude any EQ!

It's not intended for laypeople but you (generally speaking) can take your chances.

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If Classe can nail the overall sound quality from all sources for the asking price, they will have a winner. What I find amusing is all this contention over a product that has not been released.

Some would say the best part of traveling is in the journey not the destination. But yeah, I think we are having some fun and hopefully generating some interest at the same time.

"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."
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post #154 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I'm not running, I'm not hiding. I'm right here.

I think you are making a much bigger deal out of this than you need to. It seems to me I hit a nerve which has caused you to take things far too seriously. Let's just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Until you get to know me a little better you should reserve judgement. If I were so quick to put you on trial I would start by calling out your intended purpose. It could seem your remarks were nothing more than a means to undermine the intent of this thread. It would also appear hypocritical given that you own a Denon AVP-A1HD. Hence, my question to you was legitimate but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

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post #155 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

And you think that a 5 band PEQ is simpler to optimize and will generate fewer support calls. The way to resolve the latter would be to exclude any EQ!

Kal,

I agree that no EQ would produce the least amount of calls, but yes, I think a 5 band PEQ will generate many less calls than Audessey. I think most people have used an basic EQ, and will use it or not.

You have read the Audessey thread. Some people have run that 15-20 times, and still don't have a setup they like. They return to the thread with numerous complaints and questions. Some are persistant and get positive results. Many decide not to use it after spending numerous hours trying to get it to sound good (to them).

I think with Classe's purist tendancies, they made the right choice.

Darrell
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post #156 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

Kal,

I agree that no EQ would produce the least amount of calls, but yes, I think a 5 band PEQ will generate many less calls than Audessey. I think most people have used an basic EQ, and will use it or not.

Ah but that doesn't mean they will be using it correctly. For most people, setting a PEQ by ear, like a GEQ, will not fix acoustical room problems correctly. One needs, as Rebelman has suggested, a more serious/professional approach with measurement/analysis equipment, as well as a deal of knowledge about how to use all.

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You have read the Audessey thread. Some people have run that 15-20 times, and still don't have a setup they like. They return to the thread with numerous complaints and questions. Some are persistant and get positive results. Many decide not to use it after spending numerous hours trying to get it to sound good (to them).

Yes, it is not PnP or idiot-proof but one does get the hang of it and I can now do a great EQ with it on the first try (and I do that often as I switch equipment often). It is easier with the Pro kit for a number of reasons. However........................

Not liking the results does not mean the results are wrong. IMHO (emphasis intentional), most people are strongly adapted to the sound of their system/room and are disappointed by a corrected response. They miss the boom and sizzle, IMHO (emphasis intentional), even though it is better. What most need to do is live with the corrected response for a month and then see what switching it off does.

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I think with Classe's purist tendancies, they made the right choice.

Possibly. We will see.

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post #157 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 02:33 PM
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BTW, here's a dandy gadget that might make use of the 5band PEQ much more friendly: http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allman...kt=41&eng=true

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post #158 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Ah but that doesn't mean they will be using it correctly. For most people, setting a PEQ by ear, like a GEQ, will not fix acoustical room problems correctly. One needs, as Rebelman has suggested, a more serious/professional approach with measurement/analysis equipment, as well as a deal of knowledge about how to use all.

Kal,

I am not debating which will provide better results or that many will set up the PEQ incorrectly. I'm just saying that the Audessey will generate more support calls, and more frustrated people.

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Yes, it is not PnP or idiot-proof but one does get the hang of it and I can now do a great EQ with it on the first try (and I do that often as I switch equipment often). It is easier with the Pro kit for a number of reasons. However........................

I know it isn't idiot-proof, or I woulda got it in the first 10-12 tries.

If you have any tips for getting a good run, I would appreciate your suggestions. I am willing to try one more time.

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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Not liking the results does not mean the results are wrong. IMHO (emphasis intentional), most people are strongly adapted to the sound of their system/room and are disappointed by a corrected response. They miss the boom and sizzle, IMHO (emphasis intentional), even though it is better. What most need to do is live with the corrected response for a month and then see what switching it off does.

Hmm, this could be me, but I have tried to keep an open mind as I listen. I did leave in running for movies for two weeks once.

I do wnat to like the Audessey in fact. I think the Dynamic EQ, really helps keep the bass at a good level as you increse/decrease the volume.

Thanks,
Darrell
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post #159 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

If you have any tips for getting a good run, I would appreciate your suggestions. I am willing to try one more time.

Wow! There's a whole thread on it, as you know. Don't know what tips to offer since I don't know what you are doing right and wrong.

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post #160 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Wow! There's a whole thread on it, as you know. Don't know what tips to offer since I don't know what you are doing right and wrong.

Kal,

I've read many parts of the thread. When you said it you get the setup right almost everytime though, I figured you may have a system/technique that could help me out.

But we digress, as Classe will not have Audessey in the SSP-800.

So, to get back on track, I will offer to do a SSP-800 to Denon AVP comparison, if someone would send me a SSP-800.

Darrell
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post #161 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

I think you are making a much bigger deal out of this than you need to. It seems to me I hit a nerve which has caused you to take things far too seriously. Let's just say we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Until you get to know me a little better you should reserve judgement. If I were so quick to put you on trial I would start by calling out your intended purpose. It could seem your remarks were nothing more than a means to undermine the intent of this thread. It would also appear hypocritical given that you own a Denon AVP-A1HD. Hence, my question to you was legitimate but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

Man, you are arrogant aren't you. And wrong.
Let's just say I agree to that.

Yours Truly,
Lowly "mid-fi" poster.

P.S.;
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post #162 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 05:25 PM
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Man, you are arrogant aren't you. And wrong.
Let's just say I agree to that.

Yours Truly,
Lowly "mid-fi" poster.

You and your immature editorials are irrelevant and unwelcome.

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post #163 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 05:30 PM
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If anyone has an intended purpose in this thread it is clearly Rebelman, who seems to have sworn an oath to defend Classe, right or wrong, to the death! LOL!!

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post #164 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by GoodSonics View Post

Kal,

I've read many parts of the thread. When you said it you get the setup right almost everytime though, I figured you may have a system/technique that could help me out.

But we digress, as Classe will not have Audessey in the SSP-800.

So, to get back on track, I will offer to do a SSP-800 to Denon AVP comparison, if someone would send me a SSP-800.

Darrell

Darrell,

In your defense that thread has also gotten ridiculously long and repetitive. You'd have to have serious patience to sift out what you need for your specific application. Chris from Audyssey on that thread is pretty good at answering questions about certain set-ups and results - might be worth your while to run it past him.

Kals' right though, the majority of those that don't like it tend to be those that have adapted to their own rooms' sound and not necessarily accurate sound. Accurate bass is probably the most misinterpreted.
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post #165 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 05:49 PM
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If anyone has an intended purpose in this thread it is clearly Rebelman, who seems to have sworn an oath to defend Classe, right or wrong, to the death! LOL!!

I extend common courtesy to other content/owners threads and expect no less here. It serves no purpose to litter a thread with derogatory statements motivated by a self serving agenda.

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post #166 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 06:07 PM
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If anyone has an intended purpose in this thread it is clearly Rebelman, who seems to have sworn an oath to defend Classe, right or wrong, to the death! LOL!!

I rarely, very rarely post anything negative, and boy I have been biting my tongue for some time now. But, sadly, at least to some extent, I have to agree. I was hoping for valuable information and an honest non-defensive exchange. But once "he doth protest too much," I became skeptical and felt it was better to walk away and save my questions and my time for others who are genuinely interested in an open dialog.

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post #167 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 06:16 PM
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I extend common courtesy to other content/owners threads and expect no less here. It serves no purpose to litter a thread with derogatory statements motivated by a self serving agenda.

I guess the roll eyes on your first response to me was "common courtesy".

Talk about hypocracy.
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post #168 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 06:52 PM
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I rarely, very rarely post anything negative, and boy I have been biting my tongue for some time now. But, sadly, at least to some extent, I have to agree. I was hoping for valuable information and an honest non-defensive exchange. But once "he doth protest too much," I became skeptical and felt it was better to walk away and save my questions and my time for others who are genuinely interested in an open dialog.

You always take the high road, kudos for that. I, on the other hand, probably waste too much time engaging when I sense a futile argument, but I'm a passionate frenchman I can't help myself...
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post #169 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MarketingProf View Post

I rarely, very rarely post anything negative, and boy I have been biting my tongue for some time now. But, sadly, at least to some extent, I have to agree. I was hoping for valuable information and an honest non-defensive exchange. But once "he doth protest too much," I became skeptical and felt it was better to walk away and save my questions and my time for others who are genuinely interested in an open dialog.

If you were truly looking at this through objective lenses you would see that it takes two to dance. Honestly, how can two people engage in open dialog when one of them tell's you "I have no interest in the SSP-800." This seems to be a common theme with a few disgruntled people. You are right to walk away.

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post #170 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I guess the roll eyes on your first response to me was "common courtesy".

Talk about hypocracy.

I will indulge you with an explanation if for no other reason then to humor myself.

Let's recall part of your message... "My take on room EQ's, especially quality ones that operate in both the time and frequency domains, is there's no logical reason for Classe not to include some version because if one chose not to use it, it wouldn't affect the sound one iota. All it would require is more DSP horsepower and IMO would be an asset in most rooms if one did choose to use it. I think Classe is just "cheaping out" and using a lame excuse not to have it."

You failed to acknowledge that the Classe' piece was endowed with a PEQ either through neglect or ignorance. In either case the point you made was self-serving. It is inappropriate, especially when there is a conflict of interest, i.e. you having recently purchased the Denon AVP-A1HD, to participate in a discussion for the sole purpose of causing a ruckus. You had a choice to keep your comments to yourself or to share them. You chose the latter. Along with that decision comes the possibility that you will be challenged. Had I gone to the Denon thread and spread a little trash talk there I am certain opinionated feedback would ensue. However, the difference would be that I would have handled it in a mature fashion.

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post #171 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 08:38 PM
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It's the Battle of the Homer's ICEpower Homer vs Classe Homer
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post #172 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

If you were truly looking at this through objective lenses you would see that it takes two to dance. Honestly, how can two people engage in open dialog when one of them tell's you "I have no interest in the SSP-800." This seems to be a common theme with a few disgruntled people. You are right to walk away.

I'll try one last time (and try to stay on the high road).

My response, if taken in its correct context, was in reply to your incorrect deduction that "the SSP-800 appeals to you more than you are willing to let on." I was merely trying to convey that I had no interest in purchasing the unit. That however should not disqualify one from seeking answers to legitimate questions, nor in engaging in an open dialog--often quite instructive when one or both parties have no particular axe to grind.

I am not disgruntled--I never posted any comments to suggest I was. I was merely curious why an $8k pre/pro would have these design parameters. Some of your early responses did help me see where you were coming from. That's why I noted, "Your explanations do make sense, once I acknowledge the culture in which they are embedded." Get it? I guess not.

Unfortunately, the position you have assumed and the resulting comments do Classe a disservice I fear.

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post #173 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 09:18 PM
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are we still going round and round on this?

The Classe does not offer Trinnov and the Classe does not offer Audessy. Like it or not, they chose not to include it. They have stated they will consider adding it if consumer demand calls for it; however, their lab results indicated inconsistent yields and for the time being decided against it. They obviously felt R&D was better served in other areas that bring the product to market first.

If that is a problem for someone, don't buy the unit. We are spending too much time focusing on what the SSP-800 does not do, especially since the product is still an undeterminable time away from shipping.

When the product comes out, people will have an opportunity to judge for themselves if it is a fit for him/ her. Until then, it is what it is.

Noone is trying to convince anyone that one product is better than the other. One product will be a better fit for a person than the other one will. Lets quit attacking people. If you are here for the sole puprose of arguing why you think the Denon is a superior product, go away. This thread is about the Classe unit. It is rude to hijack a thread.

I'd like to start with a rudementary question. Those of you that are nay-sayers, have you ever heard Classe before or are you someone that has built their system based on Denon's entry level products and moved up the ranks that way? I whole-heartedly believe strongly in brand loyalty. Don't get me wrong, but it is quite silly to object to a product noone has ever heard before, simply because it doesn't have a feature. The 800 is on back-order, so if you have a local dealer, and they get a demo unit in, I suggest you go down and listen to the 800, coupled with a pair of B&W diamond speakers and classe amps, and see what it is all about. Be fore-warned, you might like what you hear.

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post #174 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 09:27 PM
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P.S.

I've never had Audessy, so to me, its not a big deal to go without it. I was quite happy with the SSP-600 and see the SSP-800 as a natural evolution. For those of you that are so passionate for it, please help me understand what is so important that it is a deal-breaker and worth disrupting the thread over? What was the "AHA!" moment that did it for you? If it is that important, we can always pull for Classe to add it. The hardware is there. I don't see them adding it until after the upgrade DSP's, but that doesn't mean they won't.

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post #175 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 09:34 PM
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Sikoniko, what you and Rebelman can't get your Classe embedded heads around is that no one has said or implied the Denon is better. You're fighting a fight that doesn't exist.
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post #176 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

I will indulge you with an explanation if for no other reason then to humor myself.

Let's recall part of your message... "My take on room EQ's, especially quality ones that operate in both the time and frequency domains, is there's no logical reason for Classe not to include some version because if one chose not to use it, it wouldn't affect the sound one iota. All it would require is more DSP horsepower and IMO would be an asset in most rooms if one did choose to use it. I think Classe is just "cheaping out" and using a lame excuse not to have it."

You failed to acknowledge that the Classe' piece was endowed with a PEQ either through neglect or ignorance. In either case the point you made was self-serving. It is inappropriate, especially when there is a conflict of interest, i.e. you having recently purchased the Denon AVP-A1HD, to participate in a discussion for the sole purpose of causing a ruckus. You had a choice to keep your comments to yourself or to share them. You chose the latter. Along with that decision comes the possibility that you will be challenged. Had I gone to the Denon thread and spread a little trash talk there I am certain opinionated feedback would ensue. However, the difference would be that I would have handled it in a mature fashion.

Do you ever read the crap you write?

Endowed with a PEQ? Hell even cheap receivers have that now, and up to 9 bands per channel that's why I didn't acknowledge it, it's nothing special and can do more harm than good in the wrong hands.

What exactly is self serving about my comment? What am I getting out of it?

My purchase of the Denon has nothing to do with why I questioned Classe not having room EQ, and moreso why they would find Audyssey or other REQ's less than adequate for neophytes that may purchase their products.

I did not join this thread to cause a rukus, I simply came in to ask a legitimate question about Classe's exclusion of room EQ out of nothing more than curiousity. When I read their take on it I found it questionable.

Taking my statement you quoted above as an insult or as causing a rukus, is ludicrous at best. And the fact that you felt as though you HAD to rush to defend the honor of Classe instead of arguing the merits of room EQ shows your alterior motive as plain as day.

I did not cast the first stone my friend - you did.
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post #177 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RebelMan View Post

I will indulge you with an explanation if for no other reason then to humor myself.

Let's recall part of your message... "My take on room EQ's, especially quality ones that operate in both the time and frequency domains, is there's no logical reason for Classe not to include some version because if one chose not to use it, it wouldn't affect the sound one iota. All it would require is more DSP horsepower and IMO would be an asset in most rooms if one did choose to use it. I think Classe is just "cheaping out" and using a lame excuse not to have it."

You failed to acknowledge that the Classe' piece was endowed with a PEQ either through neglect or ignorance. In either case the point you made was self-serving. It is inappropriate, especially when there is a conflict of interest, i.e. you having recently purchased the Denon AVP-A1HD, to participate in a discussion for the sole purpose of causing a ruckus. You had a choice to keep your comments to yourself or to share them. You chose the latter. Along with that decision comes the possibility that you will be challenged. Had I gone to the Denon thread and spread a little trash talk there I am certain opinionated feedback would ensue. However, the difference would be that I would have handled it in a mature fashion.

I rebelman I thought you were in support of the classe wanting audyssey. I'm not sure why you wouldnt want it to be.

theres a fair difference between peq and audyssey. havign used audyssey personalyl I'd like to see everyone have the option to use it

one thing to note re audyssey it operates quite differently and a lot more powerfull than peq. see below the explantaion from chris of aduyssey

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post13981560
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Jeff,

Yes, it is a single filter (per channel). This is a difficult concept to grasp if one is accustomed to parametric EQ that is defined by the number of bands. But bands are so early 70s. The basic concept behind MultEQ is that there are no parametric bands. The filter is a set of several hundred control points. It operates in the time domain, but has an equivalent function in the frequency domain. You can think of it as a curve that is morphed so that it acquires a shape that is opposite of the room response.

Chris

as an aside my velo DD15 has 8 bands of parametric eq. I still use it as per chris and velodynes recomemdation as it frees up audyssey to work on other parts of the freq spectrum. the amazing thing though is that even though I have the eq for the velo the audyssey has actually turned out to have been of quite a benefit for even the bass ! and thats without mentioning the benfit audyssey dynamic eq brings to the mix !

frankly for the classe guys to miss out on audyssey I'd see as a real shame. as been said before whats the harm in including it ?. if people particualry dont want to use it for what ever reasons they dont have to but aleast its an option for those that do want to get value from it

and ps audyssey is not jsut a denon thing theres also integra/onkyo, marantz, nad that I know use the system and sounds like sim audio moon intend utilising it as well

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post #178 of 5853 Old 06-10-2008, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MarketingProf View Post

I'll try one last time (and try to stay on the high road).

My response, if taken in its correct context, was in reply to your incorrect deduction that "the SSP-800 appeals to you more than you are willing to let on." I was merely trying to convey that I had no interest in purchasing the unit. That however should not disqualify one from seeking answers to legitimate questions, nor in engaging in an open dialog--often quite instructive when one or both parties have no particular axe to grind.

I am not disgruntled--I never posted any comments to suggest I was. I was merely curious why an $8k pre/pro would have these design parameters. Some of your early responses did help me see where you were coming from. That's why I noted, "Your explanations do make sense, once I acknowledge the culture in which they are embedded." Get it? I guess not.

Unfortunately, the position you have assumed and the resulting comments do Classe a disservice I fear.

I think you should go back and re-read some of the things you said. They weren't exactly inquisitive but more critical in nature. When I was afforded the opportunity to respond to your questions your replies were slightly combative. In my experience people that are genuinely "interested" don't put up challenges which you were doing. If you were truly seeking an understanding to the logic behind Classe's design decisions then you would have accepted the information for what it was. Whether you would agree with it or not is another matter irrelevant to the discussion.

With regard to Classe', my opinions are my own. I am not an advocate for them but I firmly believe in what they are doing and support them for it and they have earned my trust and respect not to mention my business. The only people that may feel a disservice is taking place will be the people that don't have any constructive purpose being here. In my view, someone posing as an interested imposter making self declarations could be seen as the one potentially doing the harm. If you are curious, then great, you can watch by the sidelines. If you decide to enter the field than all I ask is that you have honest intentions.

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post #179 of 5853 Old 06-11-2008, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I did not cast the first stone my friend - you did.

What are you doing here? Are you having a case of buyer's remorse? Are you trying to pump up the product you bought so as to feel better about the decision you made? What non-self serving point have you made? Why aren’t you spending your time over at the Denon thread? There must be more productive things to learn and discuss over there and I’m sure it would have given you less heartburn. You strolled into this thread and dropped a bomb. I lobbed one back and then you went into a panic and got personal. You are a wolf in sheep’s clothing. I think it's time to for you to get over it and move on. Go enjoy your new toy.

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post #180 of 5853 Old 06-11-2008, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

I rebelman I thought you were in support of the classe wanting audyssey. I'm not sure why you wouldnt want it to be.

Actually, I would liked to have seen Classe' enable Audyssey and Trinnov but not because I endorse it. The hardware is there and it would have been an easier sell but it would also add to the cost of the system.

With regard to EQing in general I have major reservations when any manipulation occurs between the mid and upper band frequencies. Audyssey's approach to solving the problem in the time domain is akin to what is taking place in the "Loudness Wars". Any respectable Acoustician will always tell you the best approach to dealing with reflections, modal issues and reverberative decay at these frequencies is through passive treatment.

Modal nodes at frequencies hovering around 250Hz and below are typically more difficult to control through conventional means. EQing becomes more of a necessity in these cases but not a requirement depending on the source material. With the right attitude and proper preparation great success can be achieved through the use of a high quality multi-band PEQ.

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