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post #2071 of 5852 Old 12-11-2009, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

Hi Roger,

I originally used RCA's between all my Halo Amps (3). When I switched to XLRs on all the amps I had to adjust the levels down (sorry for ther typo) 2 to 3 db. When I called Tom at Classe he told me it is the nature of XLR to play louder because of the seperate ground (sorry did not understand this technically) I guess it could be possible that my Halo amps have lower levels in the RCA section of the amps but I was told it was the design of the how XLRs work. I hope that clarifies why I think it is the XLR cable that raises the db level

When it comes to gain structure of a preamp or the gain of a power amp, there are no rigid rules, just typical industry practice. The most rigid aspect is the notional 2v limit for line inputs and outputs, but there's fudge factor there, too.

On top of that, whatever arbitrary signal levels that may exist on RCA jacks, the products can be designed such that using the parallel XLRs result on the same net gain, or more or less. You are just seeing two examples.

Typically, the XLR output pin 2 will carry the same signal as found on the RCA jack (it's there, and it's easy), and pin 3 carries a polarity inverted version. Measured differentially, that's 6 dB more signal. That's why you see the max output voltage specs for XLR outputs being about 2x the RCA jack's.

On the XLR input, the 2 signals are subtracted (difference) which cancels common mode noise. The gain of that stage can be made to be whatever is desired for the product. Usually there is attenuation there to bring those signals back down to the neighborhood of the RCA input.
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post #2072 of 5852 Old 12-12-2009, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

When it comes to gain structure of a preamp or the gain of a power amp, there are no rigid rules, just typical industry practice. The most rigid aspect is the notional 2v limit for line inputs and outputs, but there's fudge factor there, too.

On top of that, whatever arbitrary signal levels that may exist on RCA jacks, the products can be designed such that using the parallel XLRs result on the same net gain, or more or less. You are just seeing two examples.

Typically, the XLR output pin 2 will carry the same signal as found on the RCA jack (it's there, and it's easy), and pin 3 carries a polarity inverted version. Measured differentially, that's 6 dB more signal. That's why you see the max output voltage specs for XLR outputs being about 2x the RCA jack's.

On the XLR input, the 2 signals are subtracted (difference) which cancels common mode noise. The gain of that stage can be made to be whatever is desired for the product. Usually there is attenuation there to bring those signals back down to the neighborhood of the RCA input.

I spoke with both Mike Sheehan & Tom McConville at Classe customer support, both very nice, about the Gain descrepancy between the XLR's and the 7.1 m/c analog inputs and both assured me that this is not a defect in my unit but neither could give me a difintive answer as to why. Actually when I think back to when I was using the P7, the SSP-800 XLR's gain level is pretty similar to the P7 and the 7.1 m/c analog inputs of the SSP-800 have a higher gain level than the P7's m/c analog inputs. I have come to this conclusion based on the volume levels I am using for the SSP-800 now and what I was using for the P7. I am going to put this to bed now & just enjoy what I have. I did appreciate everybody's comments however on the issue or non-issue.
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post #2073 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 11:51 AM
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NEW TOPIC: Owners of SSP-800's who have JL Audio fathom subwoofers, have you used the Classe's internal EQ to EQ your subs and if so how much improved was the performance of the subs compared to just using the JL's own single band (ARO) EQ?

Thanks in advance.
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post #2074 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 12:00 PM
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ANOTHER JL QUESTION FOR SSP-800 OWNERS: One thing many of you may not realize about the 800 is that the LFE channel is actually not crossed over until 200Hz. There is no crossover for the LFE channel itself, Classe's stance being that the only information in the LFE channel is what was put there by the mixing engineer and should be reproduced. If filtered, you're actually filtering out content, as opposed to when you redirect content when crossing over main speakers. BUT.....most don't like the idea of manly subs like the JL's potentially "wasting" energy trying to reproduce 200Hz. Anyone experimented with using the subs own internal crossover to 80, 70, 60,50Hz? That is far enough away from the 800's 200Hz filter that it shouldn't create any issues that couldn't be solved with the controls built into the JL subwoofers. Anyone???
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post #2075 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

Thanks Tim, actually I believe my speakers err on the warmer side and I actually played a cd I was pretty familiar with. I believe that the P7 pre-amp initially started out a little harsh and did warm up with time. By the way I am not experiencing the audio mute problem and I haven't done the latest update so that's good. I plan on doing the latest update soon though.

If your system sounds harsh since the introduction of the 800 into the system, then something is amiss. Classe has always erred on the soft side of neutral. You'd have to be in a tiled bathroom for it to actually sound harsh in my experience. If it's not too big a hassle, try taking it back to your dealer, and hook up to a system that sounds warm to your ears with what they have hooked up. Or just compare it to their 800. It should sound anything but harsh. I will say that having changed from the SSP-300 to the 800, it is more revealing and more detailed, but the classic Classe smoothness is still there. Good luck.
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post #2076 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

ANOTHER JL QUESTION FOR SSP-800 OWNERS: One thing many of you may not realize about the 800 is that the LFE channel is actually not crossed over until 200Hz. There is no crossover for the LFE channel itself, Classe's stance being that the only information in the LFE channel is what was put there by the mixing engineer and should be reproduced.

Scott - that statement doesn't make any sense.

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post #2077 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by adidino View Post

Scott - that statement doesn't make any sense.

I'll clarify. The ".1" in film soundtrack terms literally means 1/10 of the human hearing spectrum - 20hz -200hz. Classe's LFE channel has a fixed filter that spans this spectrum. The user cannot alter that other than use it or not. This is different than the main speakers, which of course can be crossed over at many points, with the bass being redirected to the subwoofer at that appointed crossover frequency with the user also choosing the steepness/slope of the rolloff. I have confirmed this with Classe. Those who want to assure that no info above a crossover point much lower than that would have to bypass the sub channel, run a full range signal into their subwoofers, and use their subs own internal crossover to avoid any phase issues resulting from cascading filters if both the Classe and your subwoofers crossover circuits were active.

Make sense?
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post #2078 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

ANOTHER JL QUESTION FOR SSP-800 OWNERS: One thing many of you may not realize about the 800 is that the LFE channel is actually not crossed over until 200Hz. There is no crossover for the LFE channel itself, Classe's stance being that the only information in the LFE channel is what was put there by the mixing engineer and should be reproduced. If filtered, you're actually filtering out content, as opposed to when you redirect content when crossing over main speakers. BUT.....most don't like the idea of manly subs like the JL's potentially "wasting" energy trying to reproduce 200Hz. Anyone experimented with using the subs own internal crossover to 80, 70, 60,50Hz? That is far enough away from the 800's 200Hz filter that it shouldn't create any issues that couldn't be solved with the controls built into the JL subwoofers. Anyone???

I think there is some confusion here. The LFE channel is a discrete channel carrying low frequency content only. How low or high in frequency is a matter for the production company. Dolby says LFE is below 120Hz, DTS says nothing but the general rule of thumb is certainly no content above 200Hz. Although I know of one demo DVD-A that has a full range voice over on the LFE channel the track is actually described as 6.0.
The crossover setting decides what to remove from your main full range channels and redirect to the low frequency (LFE) channel. The incoming LFE signal before any redirected bass is added is low pass filtered to remove and out of band (above the filter cutoff) energy that may be passed to your sub.
The JL doesn't suffer and is not wasting energy if the signal isn't there in the first place.
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post #2079 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

If your system sounds harsh since the introduction of the 800 into the system, then something is amiss. Classe has always erred on the soft side of neutral. You'd have to be in a tiled bathroom for it to actually sound harsh in my experience. If it's not too big a hassle, try taking it back to your dealer, and hook up to a system that sounds warm to your ears with what they have hooked up. Or just compare it to their 800. It should sound anything but harsh. I will say that having changed from the SSP-300 to the 800, it is more revealing and more detailed, but the classic Classe smoothness is still there. Good luck.

Scott, harsh may have been to harsh a description of what I was hearing, no pun intended. Maybe a little thin is the more appropriate description but that seems to be improving with more play time.
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Originally Posted by wildtangent View Post

I think there is some confusion here. The LFE channel is a discrete channel carrying low frequency content only. How low or high in frequency is a matter for the production company. Dolby says LFE is below 120Hz, DTS says nothing but the general rule of thumb is certainly no content above 200Hz. Although I know of one demo DVD-A that has a full range voice over on the LFE channel the track is actually described as 6.0.
The crossover setting decides what to remove from your main full range channels and redirect to the low frequency (LFE) channel. The incoming LFE signal before any redirected bass is added is low pass filtered to remove and out of band (above the filter cutoff) energy that may be passed to your sub.
The JL doesn't suffer and is not wasting energy if the signal isn't there in the first place.

Absolutely correct. If the signal isn't there by virtue of mixers understanding that you don't put content that high in the LFE channel, the point is moot. Still, it makes some of us uneasy that there COULD be info that high, and it is not getting crossed over in the 800 in such a case. But yes, for all intents and purposes, it shouldn't be an issue.
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post #2081 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

Scott, harsh may have been to harsh a description of what I was hearing, no pun intended. Maybe a little thin is the more appropriate description but that seems to be improving with more play time.

Excellent. Enjoy. And things do break in despite what the doubters say about the owner breaking in, not the gear. Also, never underestimate what even the smallest of speaker placement tweaking can do...
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post #2082 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 03:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

I'll clarify. The ".1" in film soundtrack terms literally means 1/10 of the human hearing spectrum - 20hz -200hz. Classe's LFE channel has a fixed filter that spans this spectrum. The user cannot alter that other than use it or not. This is different than the main speakers, which of course can be crossed over at many points, with the bass being redirected to the subwoofer at that appointed crossover frequency with the user also choosing the steepness/slope of the rolloff. I have confirmed this with Classe. Those who want to assure that no info above a crossover point much lower than that would have to bypass the sub channel, run a full range signal into their subwoofers, and use their subs own internal crossover to avoid any phase issues resulting from cascading filters if both the Classe and your subwoofers crossover circuits were active.

Let's remember that the reason crossovers exist is to prevent speakers from being overtaxed by low frequencies at levels they cannot reproduce. There is no similar such danger from exposing a subwoofer to higher frequencies. They may fail to reproduce it, but no physical harm will come. It might cause undesirable localization of the sub, however, which would mainly be an issue if the subs are on the side or back of the room.

Film soundtracks are often restricted to 80 Hz in the LFE channel since that's the upper limit for DTS theatrical format, and mixers want the result to be the same regardless of the digital format. But it is true that there are also films and various music recordings that use wider bandwidth signals in the LFE channel--quite apart from the 6.0 recordings which repurpose LFE into a main channel. IIRC Steely Dan's Two Against Nature LFE channel went over 700 Hz. It sounds like an open mic rather than an intentional part of the mix--I suspect they never heard it since their monitor room sub had a low-pass filter.

And yes, you can do the same--turn on the sub's internal LP filter, but leave it set somewhat above the crossover setting in the SSP, so it's effects will not compound the LP filter in the redirected channels from the SSP.
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

NEW TOPIC: Owners of SSP-800's who have JL Audio fathom subwoofers, have you used the Classe's internal EQ to EQ your subs and if so how much improved was the performance of the subs compared to just using the JL's own single band (ARO) EQ?

Thanks in advance.


I have 2 JL audio F13 fathom. I do not use any crossover and run everything full range. No problem and awesome sound. I used the internal calibration for the subs. I have them set as mono each. sub out and aux 1 out from the classe
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post #2084 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

ANOTHER JL QUESTION FOR SSP-800 OWNERS: One thing many of you may not realize about the 800 is that the LFE channel is actually not crossed over until 200Hz. There is no crossover for the LFE channel itself, Classe's stance being that the only information in the LFE channel is what was put there by the mixing engineer and should be reproduced. If filtered, you're actually filtering out content, as opposed to when you redirect content when crossing over main speakers. BUT.....most don't like the idea of manly subs like the JL's potentially "wasting" energy trying to reproduce 200Hz. Anyone experimented with using the subs own internal crossover to 80, 70, 60,50Hz? That is far enough away from the 800's 200Hz filter that it shouldn't create any issues that couldn't be solved with the controls built into the JL subwoofers. Anyone???

I use the internal crossovers. set at 60hz. Perfect for my system. All my speakers are full range anyway.
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post #2085 of 5852 Old 12-13-2009, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

NEW TOPIC: Owners of SSP-800's who have JL Audio fathom subwoofers, have you used the Classe's internal EQ to EQ your subs and if so how much improved was the performance of the subs compared to just using the JL's own single band (ARO) EQ?

Thanks in advance.

I use all five of the sub channel filters in the SSP, which has helped greatly in achieving balanced, smooth sounding bass response. The single filter in the JL may be enough, but the only way to know it to measure the the in-room response of your sub.
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post #2086 of 5852 Old 12-14-2009, 07:03 AM
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The other day when I was in the set-up menu under Display Setup/OSD Setup/Events, eliminating some events from showing up on my OSD, like volume & signal I saw at the end of the list an item called "DialNorm Offset". I did not come across this item anywhere in the Manual and was wondering what it is or does? Also I observed when watching satellite when I switched between HBO and CNBC the DialNorm offset was +1 on HBO and it was -4 on CNBC.
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post #2087 of 5852 Old 12-14-2009, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Arnies View Post

I use the internal crossovers. set at 60hz. Perfect for my system. All my speakers are full range anyway.

So Arnies, you are actually filtering your subs twice. By turning the subs on in the 800 (or, in Classe-speak "sub enabled"), you automatically have a non-adjustable 200Hz filter for the LFE channel. Additionally, you have a filter in your subs at 60Hz as you mention. There is enough adjustability with phase and polarity and whatnot in the JL's that you should be able to dial it in to your liking, but just so you know.

Out of curiosity, why do you use the internal crossover in your subs?
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I use all five of the sub channel filters in the SSP, which has helped greatly in achieving balanced, smooth sounding bass response. The single filter in the JL may be enough, but the only way to know it to measure the the in-room response of your sub.

Did you do this by ear or measure it yourself or have it done professionally by your stalwart Classe dealer in the Seattle area?
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post #2089 of 5852 Old 12-14-2009, 12:35 PM
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Did you do this by ear or measure it yourself or have it done professionally by your stalwart Classe dealer in the Seattle area?

Did it myself using audio measurement software (Room EQ Wizard) and a calibrated microphone. If you are interested in going the DIY route and don't want to spend days/weeks/months trying to learn how to take and interpret measurements, you might look into buying the XTZ sound analysis system. It's more of a plug-n-play option than Room EQ Wizard.

http://www.xtz.se/produkt.php?allmant=true&produkt=41

If you are technically inclined and familiar with reading frequency response graphs and waterfall plots, I can give you a list of equipment for assembling a Room EQ Wizard audio measurement system.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkj_V...eature=related
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post #2090 of 5852 Old 12-15-2009, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Wallace View Post

So Arnies, you are actually filtering your subs twice. By turning the subs on in the 800 (or, in Classe-speak "sub enabled"), you automatically have a non-adjustable 200Hz filter for the LFE channel. Additionally, you have a filter in your subs at 60Hz as you mention. There is enough adjustability with phase and polarity and whatnot in the JL's that you should be able to dial it in to your liking, but just so you know.

Out of curiosity, why do you use the internal crossover in your subs?

The manual says and my other subs say that if the pre-amp has a filter run it full range and use the filter on the subs. So that is what I do. Rarely does the .1 track have bass over 125db sdo it is a non issue.
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post #2091 of 5852 Old 12-15-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

The other day when I was in the set-up menu under Display Setup/OSD Setup/Events, eliminating some events from showing up on my OSD, like volume & signal I saw at the end of the list an item called "DialNorm Offset". I did not come across this item anywhere in the Manual and was wondering what it is or does? Also I observed when watching satellite when I switched between HBO and CNBC the DialNorm offset was +1 on HBO and it was -4 on CNBC.

I checked with my a/v dealer about the "dialNorm Offset" that I only came across when I was in "Events" last item in the OSD Set-Up. He said the reason I could not find any mention of this in the manual is because this is something that the SSP-800 does automatically and not an adjustment that you can make. Apparently the SSP-800 automatically adjusts the gain level for the various digital sources or it can be the same digital source as is the case when I switched from HBO to CNBC. I am still curious as to what the DialNorm stands for. "Norm" maybe stands for normal? "D" = digital? "I" = Input? "A" = adjustment "L" ???
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post #2092 of 5852 Old 12-15-2009, 03:03 PM
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Is it worth spending more money to have you room calibrated,

I found a ISF, THX certified and HHA Level II guru calibrator

Who also recently spent 4 days at the Sencore HQ in South Dakota this summer.

He has the following equipment:

- the Sencore SP295C and Terra Link 2

http://www.sencore.com/parts/22/13
http://www.sencore.com/markets/a-v-i...calibration/41

- GoldMark 5.1 Audio Toolkit DVD
http://www.gold-line.com/51atdvd.htm


Also cool review on the 800D
- http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=137
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post #2093 of 5852 Old 12-15-2009, 07:48 PM
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I am still curious as to what the DialNorm stands for. "Norm" maybe stands for normal? "D" = digital? "I" = Input? "A" = adjustment "L" ???

"DialNorm" is an abbreviation of "Dialog Normalization." It's a Dolby Digital metadata parameter. Depending on who you talk to and their level of knowledge, it's either a useful feature in the hands of an expert, or a tool of Satan used to screw up audio.
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post #2094 of 5852 Old 12-16-2009, 05:46 AM
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"DialNorm" is an abbreviation of "Dialog Normalization." It's a Dolby Digital metadata parameter. Depending on who you talk to and their level of knowledge, it's either a useful feature in the hands of an expert, or a tool of Satan used to screw up audio.

Why didn't I think of that. When my dealer explained to me what it does, I asked him if it was like the "Dolby Volume" feature that is offered in the Arcam AV888 pre/pro. He said it acted similar but not the same. I believe the Dolby Volume feature eliminates the volume discrepancy you sometimes get with some commercials blaring when watching broadcast TV. Where this only adjusts between actual stations when switching from HBO to CNBC.
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post #2095 of 5852 Old 12-16-2009, 06:01 AM
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Why didn't I think of that. When my dealer explained to me what it does, I asked him if it was like the "Dolby Volume" feature that is offered in the Arcam AV888 pre/pro. He said it acted similar but not the same. I believe the Dolby Volume feature eliminates the volume discrepancy you sometimes get with some commercials blaring when watching broadcast TV. Where this only adjusts between actual stations when switching from HBO to CNBC.

When I last spoke to Dave, he indicated that they are beginning the initial testing of code that includes Dolby Volume. Hopefully it doesn't take them long to work out the kinks.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #2096 of 5852 Old 12-16-2009, 06:02 AM
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"DialNorm" is an abbreviation of "Dialog Normalization." It's a Dolby Digital metadata parameter. Depending on who you talk to and their level of knowledge, it's either a useful feature in the hands of an expert, or a tool of Satan used to screw up audio.

now that is a funny statement!

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #2097 of 5852 Old 12-17-2009, 04:02 AM
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Originally Posted by sikoniko View Post

When I last spoke to Dave, he indicated that they are beginning the initial testing of code that includes Dolby Volume. Hopefully it doesn't take them long to work out the kinks.

So this feature might be available with a firmware update. I hope it will be something that you can choose to turn on or off with the different inputs. Like maybe have it on with satellite input and off with the bluray input.
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post #2098 of 5852 Old 12-17-2009, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mt14942 View Post

So this feature might be available with a firmware update. I hope it will be something that you can choose to turn on or off with the different inputs. Like maybe have it on with satellite input and off with the bluray input.

yes. Dolby PLIIz may come at some point as well. MDS has to support it first.

ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country can do for you.
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post #2099 of 5852 Old 12-17-2009, 08:25 AM
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yes. Dolby pliiz may come at some point as well. Mds has to support it first.

mds?
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post #2100 of 5852 Old 12-17-2009, 01:49 PM
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Iv'e had this player for a couple of weeks now, and the more familiar I become with it and the more I play it the better I like it. It is pretty much meeting all my expectations and possibly exceeding them in some areas. I have listened to cd's the most with the xlr's and really like the way it's sounding, the sound stage seems more detailed. I have yet to try a digital connection for cd but a few people have suggested it would be better. With the handful of blurays I have played with the HDMI input, there seemed to be more pronounced LFE than I can remember when I was using the m/c analogs with the Halo P7 pre-amp. Although the m/c analogs with the A1 sounded good, for me there seemed to be a deficiency with the Sub output. Since I don't seem to have the mute problem and I am on code 2.0.0 I was curious what are some of the other glitches I should be aware of? I seem to be experiencing a split second audio drop or hesitation not sure which, with the SSP-800 when switching outputs.
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