Onkyo Vs Denon - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Does anyone no which brand is actually better? I am trying to decide on various models from each. Onkyo 707 and 805. And Denon 788, 888, 988, 2808, and 3808. I was just wondering if one is typically better than the other. I like the Denon models. But the Onkyo's dont seem bad either and actually have 3 hdmi inputs. The Denons all have 2 except for the 3808 which has 4.
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post #2 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

Does anyone no which brand is actually better? I am trying to decide on various models from each. Onkyo 707 and 805. And Denon 788, 888, 988, 2808, and 3808. I was just wondering if one is typically better than the other. I like the Denon models. But the Onkyo's dont seem bad either and actually have 3 hdmi inputs. The Denons all have 2 except for the 3808 which has 4.


Metal im pretty new at this, but I have decided on the denon 988 based on what I have read on these forums. The Onkyo seem to have a lot of over heating issues and breakdowns of all sorts.

I was actually sold on the Onkyo until I started reading the threads about them. Denon seems to be a very strong performer.
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post #3 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tvmack View Post

Metal im pretty new at this, but I have decided on the denon 988 based on what I have read on these forums. The Onkyo seem to have a lot of over heating issues and breakdowns of all sorts.

I was actually sold on the Onkyo until I started reading the threads about them. Denon seems to be a very strong performer.

Yeah i am leaning towards the Denon myself. Its just the Onkyo 705 and 805 have 3 HDMI inputs, which is what my hold up is now. The Denon's have 2, so either either i get the one with 3, and i'm all set, or i get the one with 2, and have to sacrifice one of my components hdmi capability or get a switcher which i know nothing about. I have a my samsung 71 tv, ps3, xbox 360 and comcast HD/DVR. I hate to have to sacrifice one of those and use component or something.
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post #4 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:24 PM
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I think the Denon sounds better even though the Onkyos are THX certified. The only thing is is that you pay alot more for the denon. If you want better sound i would say the denon, but if you want to spend less money i would say the onkyo.
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post #5 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by c_hochhalter View Post

I think the Denon sounds better even though the Onkyos are THX certified. The only thing is is that you pay alot more for the denon. If you want better sound i would say the denon, but if you want to spend less money i would say the onkyo.

You know the THX certified caught my eye as well so I checked and I couldnt find any Denon that carried this tag although the sound quality has been reported as strong. I even went as far as googling THX certified.

Still the Denon has me sold. Next Friday I will be ordering the 988.
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post #6 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by tvmack View Post

You know the THX certified caught my eye as well so I checked and I couldnt find any Denon that carried this tag although the sound quality has been reported as strong. I even went as far as googling THX certified.

Still the Denon has me sold. Next Friday I will be ordering the 988.

There are only two denons that are certified. The denon 5308 which is 5200, and the a1hd which is 7000. I think that denon doesnt want to pay for the certification of their receivers. I think they sound better then alot of receivers that i are certified.
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post #7 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I cant believe how incredibly difficult this is for a first time buyer.
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post #8 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 08:05 PM
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I have been at this for about a month and I really like what I read about Marantz 4001 and 4002. Seems like a very good choice for me, affordable, enough HDMI, good sound for music and video. I will have one soon. Hope this helps.
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post #9 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 08:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dougzilla View Post

I have been at this for about a month and I really like what I read about Marantz 4001 and 4002. Seems like a very good choice for me, affordable, enough HDMI, good sound for music and video. I will have one soon. Hope this helps.

No not really, I have already narrowed it down to Onkyo and Denon. And i am trying to stick with getting one or the other at Circuit City because i have some coupons and stuff. Thanks for you input anyways tho.
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post #10 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 08:44 PM
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Denon's color on screen display is much nicer then Onkyo's black and white osd
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post #11 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 10:22 PM
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I have a Denon 887(2307) & Onkyo 805 here right now , the Denon offers better SQ IMO .

--- Jason
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post #12 of 40 Old 02-14-2008, 10:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaGamePimp View Post

I have a Denon 887(2307) & Onkyo 805 here right now , the Denon offers better SQ IMO .

--- Jason

Well it definetly seems that the Denon gets a lot more praise around the board for the SQ.....I think i have just narrowed it down to the Denon. Now to actually pick a model.lol
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post #13 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 05:34 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

I cant believe how incredibly difficult this is for a first time buyer.

Its not. Some like to make it that way. Look at the features you want and buy whatever model or brand that offers those features. The SQ is going to be the same regardless. Unless you have a large room or drive to very loud levels, there hasn't been any factual evidence to support any of the claims that there is any SQ difference. In the case of a large room or loud listening habits, then the amplifier section is going to be important, so possibly you may want to add an outboard amp. But if you level match them, and perform the test unsighted, the differences, if any, will be minimal at best.

And to the poster that stated about all the issues with Onkyo, that's BS. All anybody has ever said is that they run a little warm. There hasn't been any issue with Onkyo's breaking posted all over these threads. Nobody knows if the fact that they run a little warm will eventually lead to those issues or not. Onkyo actually as a reputation of posting power levels that are much closer to reality that Denon does, so at very loud levels the Onkyo may actually be the better receiver (depending on model) But for what 90+% of people on these sites listening habits are, flip a coin, look at features, buy what you want and enjoy. Its pretty easy.

For those of you who want to debate, use the search function. This has been discussed in detail dozens of times and to rehash is pointless. What you wil find is that most, if not all, of those that believe there is a difference in SQ have all done their listening evaluations sighted.
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post #14 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atdamico View Post

Onkyo actually as a reputation of posting power levels that are much closer to reality that Denon does, so at very loud levels the Onkyo may actually be the better receiver (depending on model)

Onkyo 875 Claim 140 Watts - Actual 128 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Denon 4308ci Claim 140 Watts - Actual 111 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)

Source: Sound and Vision Magazine Lab test results.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

Onkyo and Denon are the best at telling the littlest of white lies.

Yamaha V1800 Claim 130 Watts - Actual 55 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Pioneer 94TXH Claim 140 Watts - Actual 61 (~122)* Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
*After approx. 10 seconds of continuous drive at these levels, protection circuits activated to reduce drive by 3 dB, i.e. half power; power-cycling the unit restored full drive

Yamaha and Pioneer are the power BS 'ers (again, this data is on at Sound and Vision).
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

The SQ differences are minimal amongst all the above (our ears are not that good).

The biggest issue is in what type of speakers you want to drive. Old AR 3A's were known for their excellent fidelity qualities and also as amp busters. At certain frequencies the resistance would dip to under 1 ohm and the amp would get fried.
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post #15 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JVi View Post

Onkyo 875 Claim 140 Watts - Actual 128 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Denon 4308ci Claim 140 Watts - Actual 111 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)

Source: Sound and Vision Magazine Lab test results.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

Onkyo and Denon are the best at telling the littlest of white lies.

Yamaha V1800 Claim 130 Watts - Actual 55 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Pioneer 94TXH Claim 140 Watts - Actual 61 (~122)* Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
*After approx. 10 seconds of continuous drive at these levels, protection circuits activated to reduce drive by 3 dB, i.e. half power; power-cycling the unit restored full drive

Yamaha and Pioneer are the power BS 'ers (again, this data is on at Sound and Vision).
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

The SQ differences are minimal amongst all the above (our ears are not that good).

The biggest issue is in what type of speakers you want to drive. Old AR 3A's were known for their excellent fidelity qualities and also as amp busters. At certain frequencies the resistance would dip to under 1 ohm and the amp would get fried.


JVi,

The author (Daniel Kumin • December 2007 S&V) of the comments on the article about the V1800 you are referencing , specifically had this to say about the drop in output of the Yamaha:

"Yamaha's RX-V1800 yielded the fine technical performance usual from the firm's A/V receivers. Power exceeded its specs by a good margin and bettered 100 watts all around, even with 5 channels driven. The unit's power supply appeared to run out of current when 2 more channels were added, however, since the 7-channel result dropped by nearly 3 dB, to 55 watts—a non-issue in the real world."

It's like having a 200 MPH car. How often are you going to top 150 or 100 MPH for that matter.
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post #16 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutgers1 View Post

JVi,

The author (Daniel Kumin • December 2007 S&V) of the comments on the article about the V1800 you are referencing , specifically had this to say about the drop in output of the Yamaha:

"Yamaha's RX-V1800 yielded the fine technical performance usual from the firm's A/V receivers. Power exceeded its specs by a good margin and bettered 100 watts all around, even with 5 channels driven. The unit's power supply appeared to run out of current when 2 more channels were added, however, since the 7-channel result dropped by nearly 3 dB, to 55 watts—a non-issue in the real world."

It's like having a 200 MPH car. How often are you going to top 150 or 100 MPH for that matter.

I agree. The difference between 55 Watts and 110 Watts is roughly 3dB which one can detect with ones ear, BUT barely.
The post is really in reference to atdamico's statement about "posting power levels that are much closer to reality".

Yamaha is doing what a lot of guys did yesterday, stretching inches into miles!

On this page is a sound level example than one can try out.

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html#definition
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post #17 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mauiguy100 View Post

Denon's color on screen display is much nicer then Onkyo's black and white osd

That depends on the model. Not all Denons have color OSD.

Mark
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post #18 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 09:07 AM
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You're actually holding out the color...the 'prettiness' of the OSD as an asset?

Good freaking god, that's completely ridiculious. The usability...the ability to navigate, to rename sources, etc...THOSE are indeed issues (though still rather trivial, IMO, as you don't use them that much after you get things set up).

Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiGuy100 View Post

Denon's color on screen display is much nicer then Onkyo's black and white osd

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post #19 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal83 View Post

Does anyone no which brand is actually better? I am trying to decide on various models from each. Onkyo 707 and 805. And Denon 788, 888, 988, 2808, and 3808. I was just wondering if one is typically better than the other. I like the Denon models. But the Onkyo's dont seem bad either and actually have 3 hdmi inputs. The Denons all have 2 except for the 3808 which has 4.

whatch this:

Metal83 what speakers do you have?

fiddlyD
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post #20 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Deandome View Post

You're actually holding out the color...the 'prettiness' of the OSD as an asset?

Good freaking god, that's completely ridiculious. The usability...the ability to navigate, to rename sources, etc...THOSE are indeed issues (though still rather trivial, IMO, as you don't use them that much after you get things set up).

Denon's GUI on the 3808ci (and up) is most definitely a feature. The fact it's presented out over HDMI at any resolution, the fact it's available on Zone 2 are all big. It's hardly about setup, either. Heck, with my 4308ci I used the web interface for much of the setup! *big grin* ... but the GUI allows you to select and change sound settings or whatever else you may wish without worrying about cramming every discrete setting on to your remote. It gives you access to Net Radio, makes slide shows (4308) and displays tuner information including station/song info for HD Radio (4308).

Anyay, Onkyo is the upstart in the comparison, expect to pay more for Denon - but you're going to get Denon's experience and features you may not recognize until you actually have to try to get something done with the units.

And the fact Denon runs cooler is a HUGE difference, unless you like fans, or never plan to put your AVR in a rack of some sort. Do the Onkyo's still have lip sync problems? The Denon's process audio and video very quickly.

Finally it shouldn't be discounted that not only is Denon currently being supported on this board (by no less than Jeff Talmidge himself aka DenonJeff) but that the networked units support firmware upgrading over the internet.

So many want the Onkyo because of it's video processor, but if that video processor causes heat problems and introduces delay is it really the killer feature? Personally, I don't need my AVR to scale video, my Pioneer TV does a fine job.

THX certification is something the Onkyo needs to prove their capabilities and compete against Denon, but Denon had already demonstrated they can build world class AVR's long ago. THX specifies an 80hz cutoff, but with the Denon I can dial in whatever I want on a per speaker basis. Does the Onkyo allow this? Or is it locked in to 80hz because of THX?

Technically the 5308ci will get you THX and a whole lot more, but that's way out of the price range of the other units.

In the end, all you can do is research your choices, and if you can't convince yourself; then buy what you think may be the best fit from somewhere you can return it - if you're wrong.
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post #21 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tvmack View Post

Metal im pretty new at this, but I have decided on the denon 988 based on what I have read on these forums. The Onkyo seem to have a lot of over heating issues and breakdowns of all sorts.

I was actually sold on the Onkyo until I started reading the threads about them. Denon seems to be a very strong performer.

I own the Onkyo 604 and the 805 and have never had any problems with overheating or breaking down.
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post #22 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post


THX certification is something the Onkyo needs to prove their capabilities and compete against Denon, but Denon had already demonstrated they can build world class AVR's long ago. THX specifies an 80hz cutoff, but with the Denon I can dial in whatever I want on a per speaker basis. Does the Onkyo allow this? Or is it locked in to 80hz because of THX?

The crossovers can be individually adjusted on the Onkyo (fronts, center surrounds, back surrounds, LFE). They recommend 80Hz for THX, but you can set them however you want.

Lip sync delays have been a non-issue for me and many others. I'm not sure if it was a problem with early production units, user error, or caused by the source. I have lip sync problems on some directv programming with or without my 805 in the loop.

I've auditioned the Denon 3808, Yamaha 1800 and 3800, and the Elite 92 and 94 back to back at Magnolia through a pair of Vienna Acoustic Haydns. They were all calibrated at the same level and I watched Dave Matthews/Tim Reynolds Bluray in stereo. All processing was turned off (direct mode), speakers set to large(no sub). The difference between all 5 of these receivers was so small that I think I went a little crazy trying to find some way to tell them a part. I later returned with a friend and we auditioned all 5 again. I thought the Denon was slightly more musical than the Elite providing a little more mid range than the others. The Yamaha sounded a little thinner but more detailed than the others and the Elite was in the middle providing great detail, but a little fuller sounding than the Yamahas. My friend preferred the Elite, but he may be a little biased since he owns one.

I could not pick one that sounded better than the other and figured once they were calibrated in my room with eq's set I would never be able to tell a difference. Then I saw the 805 on sale for almost half the price of these other receiver and gave it a shot. I was a little hesitant because of some of the posts I've read on this forum, but figured I could return it if I had any problems.

Well, 3 months later and no problems. I use it daily and have nothing but praise for this receiver. I think some people rely too much on these forums instead of auditioning for themselves. You need to consider how many of these units have sold compared to how many have had problems.

So, buy whichever receiver has the features you want and stick with it. Once it is in your home and setup you will never know the difference.
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post #23 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 11:56 AM
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With my personal experience, I tend to think that Denon starting to skimp on quality and has difficulty driving low impedance loads.

I was auditioning the Klipsch RF-83 speakers in December. These speakers impedance dips to 3 ohms at lower frequencies.

I auditioned them with the Yamaha 3800, Onkyo 905 and Denon 3808 - all in pure/direct mode (no audysey adjustments).
With the Yamaha and Onkyo, these speakers were unbelievable - exeptional detail and dynamics.

When I switched to the Denon 3808, the dynamics disappeared and the receiver appeared underpowered. I had to crank up the volume to almost full to get equivalent sound level as the other two receivers. It seemed like as if someone had thrown a comforter over the speakers.

Others in the forum have had similar experience (latin-man).

Bottom line is you better audition the Denon with your speakers or at minimum be sure you do not have speakers that have impedance dips, or you may be sadly disappointed after your purchase.

Past quality may not be reflected in the current models.
Someone mentioned that the lower end Denons are not even manufactured by Denon anymore (I can't confirm this personally)
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post #24 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 12:18 PM
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Calling them liars may be a strong word, if only because the FTC allowed manufacturers more lenient rules than stereo receivers were being held to.

The total system power figures given by these manufacturers are especially misleading as they multiply the one channel driven output by 7.

I would certainly vote for clearer specifications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JVi View Post

Onkyo 875 Claim 140 Watts - Actual 128 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Denon 4308ci Claim 140 Watts - Actual 111 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)

Source: Sound and Vision Magazine Lab test results.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

Onkyo and Denon are the best at telling the littlest of white lies.

Yamaha V1800 Claim 130 Watts - Actual 55 Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
Pioneer 94TXH Claim 140 Watts - Actual 61 (~122)* Watts (7 speakers, 8 ohms)
*After approx. 10 seconds of continuous drive at these levels, protection circuits activated to reduce drive by 3 dB, i.e. half power; power-cycling the unit restored full drive

Yamaha and Pioneer are the power BS 'ers (again, this data is on at Sound and Vision).
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/rec...-receiver.html

The SQ differences are minimal amongst all the above (our ears are not that good).

The biggest issue is in what type of speakers you want to drive. Old AR 3A's were known for their excellent fidelity qualities and also as amp busters. At certain frequencies the resistance would dip to under 1 ohm and the amp would get fried.


"But this one goes up to 11"
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post #25 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by coolflea216 View Post

I own the Onkyo 604 and the 805 and have never had any problems with overheating or breaking down.

It's the 875 and the 905 which have the Reon HQV chip that reportedly runs so hot.
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post #26 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by JonW747 View Post

It's the 875 and the 905 which have the Reon HQV chip that reportedly runs so hot.

My 805 definitely runs warm in the far right corner where the video processor and HDMI inputs are. The amplifier heat sinks don't get any warmer than other amps that I've owned. My receiver is in a entertainment center with a glass door and an open back, no fans. Whether it gets hotter than the 875/905, I don't know. None of my components get as hot as my directv HR20 though.
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post #27 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 02:54 PM
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My 805 definitely runs warm in the far right corner where the video processor and HDMI inputs are. The amplifier heat sinks don't get any warmer than other amps that I've owned. My receiver is in a entertainment center with a glass door and an open back, no fans. Whether it gets hotter than the 875/905, I don't know. None of my components get as hot as my directv HR20 though.

Tell me, when one of your palms touches the other, does it feel hot? My 875 runs at normal skin temperature after four hours of use with two little silent muffin fans (31C). I have used fans on all my receivers (1 Sony, 1 Yamaha , 1 Phillips and 3 Onkyos).
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post #28 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 03:03 PM
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It definitely doesn't get hot enough to cause any concern, but it does produce heat. I can leave my hand on top of the receiver for as long as I want without ever feeling uncomfortable. Again, this is with no external fans inside an entertainment center.
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post #29 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JVi View Post

Tell me, when one of your palms touches the other, does it feel hot? My 875 runs at normal skin temperature after four hours of use with two little silent muffin fans (31C). I have used fans on all my receivers (1 Sony, 1 Yamaha , 1 Phillips and 3 Onkyos).

Ah, but you are concerned enough that your receivers might run too hot...otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to use a fan to prevent possible overheating--matter-of-fact, you didn't feel confident enough that one little muffin fan could adequately keep it cool...hence your decision to use two such fans.

FWIW--I don't have an exact temperature reading to provide but I can honestly say that my Denon 3808 isn't hot at all to the touch...and that's w/o the 3808 having the aid of any external fan to keep it from overheating. How warm/hot would your 875 run w/o those two fans to help it out?

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post #30 of 40 Old 02-15-2008, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by toneman View Post

Ah, but you are concerned enough that your receivers might run too hot...otherwise you wouldn't have felt the need to use a fan to prevent possible overheating

NO, I have used fans on my receivers since 1968 ... yes for the last 40 years.
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