6.1 support on 5.1 LCPM tracks? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I am sure this has been answered before, but I can't find anything from the search bar, so if someone could just answer my question and let this post fall into oblivion, I'd be much obliged.

My question is, I have an Onkyo TX-SR805 and a Toshiba HD-A3. When I decode 5.1 tracks in the A3 and send the LCPM to the Onkyo, is there a way to matrix it to 6.1 while retaining the SQ?

Thanks in advance.

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post #2 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 02:57 PM
 
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My question is, I have an Onkyo TX-SR805 and a Toshiba HD-A3. When I decode 5.1 tracks in the A3 and send the LCPM to the Onkyo, is there a way to matrix it to 6.1 while retaining the SQ?

No, you can do post processing of something like pro logic 2 and logic 7 but it changes the sound for the worst. I would just decode and play the movie in the forum that it was engineered for.
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post #3 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 02:59 PM
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Hit your EX, THX, DPLIIx button and see what it does. I don't think it's bad to post process in thsi manner myself.
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post #4 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, I'm a bit green at this, so bear with me. So if I have, for example, a 5.1 TrueHD track sent to the reciever and I set it to one of the processing modes (instead of Multichannel), does it still give me lossless sound? Or does it down-convert it in order to do the processing?
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post #5 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:26 PM
 
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Sorry, I'm a bit green at this, so bear with me. So if I have, for example, a 5.1 TrueHD track sent to the reciever and I set it to one of the processing modes (instead of Multichannel), does it still give me lossless sound? Or does it down-convert it in order to do the processing?

You will send and process a lossless audio codec but after the initial processing it will then send that signal to do the post processing.
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post #6 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:41 PM
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Just keep in mind your not replacing the sound mode, your post processing or layering it on top of.....


Blu_1080p's logic is sound as well.... Just remember it's your software, you own it, use it how you see fit.
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post #7 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by jibjab View Post

When I decode 5.1 tracks in the A3 and send the LCPM to the Onkyo, is there a way to matrix it to 6.1 while retaining the SQ?

Use the EX decoding mode. Sounds that would have normally phantom imaged behind you will be extracted and sent to the speaker behind you.

Sound quality will be whatever you started with. So if the soundtrack is high quality lossless, then extracting surround-back information won't suddenly lower the quality.

Sanjay

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post #8 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:50 PM
 
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Sound quality will be whatever you started with. So if the soundtrack is high quality lossless, then extracting surround-back information won't suddenly lower the quality.

Well people will agree and disagree with you on that one.
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post #9 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Well people will agree and disagree with you on that one.

And?

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post #10 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 03:56 PM
 
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And?

And that's it, I think it lowers the quality but you don't. I do not see the point of trying to matrix something that is not there and never was. The film and sound track was designed and engineered for a reason so why would you think that you could make it sound better?
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post #11 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

I think it lowers the quality but you don't.

Can do describe what the degradation in quality sounds like?
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The film and sound track was designed and engineered for a reason so why would you think that you could make it sound better?

Not making the soundtrack better or worse, just stabilizing the imaging.

If you sit exactly between both surround speakers, you'll hear sounds at your left, at your right and behind you. If you move out of the sweet spot, the phantom imaged rear sounds will collapse to the nearest surround speaker.

However, if you extract those sounds and send them to the speakers behind you, then you can sit anywhere and those sounds will always come from the intended direction: behind you. You can't do that sort of stability with phantom imaging.

So I'm not changing how the soundtrack was "designed and engineered", I'm just scaling it to my speaker layout.

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post #12 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 04:28 PM
 
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Can do describe what the degradation in quality sounds like?

Ya it sounds worse then the original.

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Not making the soundtrack better or worse, just stabilizing the imaging.

How so? You are introducing audio at point that were not supose to be there, while you are at it why don't you add back ground talking throughout the entire movie.

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If you sit exactly between both surround speakers, you'll hear sounds at your left, at your right and behind you. If you move out of the sweet spot, the phantom imaged rear sounds will collapse to the nearest surround speaker.

However, if you extract those sounds and send them to the speakers behind you, then you can sit anywhere and those sounds will always come from the intended direction: behind you. You can't do that sort of stability with phantom imaging.

No the intended direction was how ever the movie was made, if 5.1 then it was engineered for 2 back speakers.

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So I'm not changing how the soundtrack was "designed and engineered", I'm just scaling it to my speaker layout.

So you are one of those guys who wants sound coming out of all your speakers all the time?
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post #13 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 05:26 PM
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No the intended direction was how ever the movie was made, if 5.1 then it was engineered for 2 back speakers.

Lol, bluray,

Ever counted the rear speakers in a cinema?

I might agree with you if you were talking about a multichannel music track, but not for a film.
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post #14 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by bluray_1080p View Post

Ya it sounds worse then the original.

What's worse about it? I keep asking you do describe the degradation but you won't. Why?
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You are introducing audio at point that were not supose to be there

Sure it's there, as a phantom image. When you listen on your set-up, don't you hear imaging inbetween speakers?
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No the intended direction was how ever the movie was made, if 5.1 then it was engineered for 2 back speakers.

You're confusing channels with speakers. Movie soundtracks are mixed using arrays of surround speakers that wrap around the whole theatre.
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So you are one of those guys who wants sound coming out of all your speakers all the time?

Only when there's sound at that location.

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post #15 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jibjab View Post

I am sure this has been answered before, but I can't find anything from the search bar, so if someone could just answer my question and let this post fall into oblivion, I'd be much obliged.

My question is, I have an Onkyo TX-SR805 and a Toshiba HD-A3. When I decode 5.1 tracks in the A3 and send the LCPM to the Onkyo, is there a way to matrix it to 6.1 while retaining the SQ?

Thanks in advance.

--
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Putting aside the local pissing contest, here's a brief explanation. There really aren't any HD discs that have 6:1 encoding. The 805 is fully capable of matrixing 7:1 from the 5:1 MPCM, and it will sound terrific. I personally prefer to use the PLIIx decoder. Assuming appropriate speaker placement, it should give you a "deeper" sound field to the rear. No, it does not degrade the audio quality. In fact, it does nothing at all to the 5 channels, it only ADDS 2 more channels. Repeat, it does absolutely nothing to the 5:1 channels, it doesn't even "remove" anything from the side surrounds, it only ADDS the rear 2 channels, using sounds that are present in the sides. If your system is properly set up and calibrated, you will be only barely aware of the 2 rears, but you will perceive greater depth to the rear.

Now, on SD-DVDs that DO have ES/EX encoding, the ES/EX flag will not be sent by the A3 over MPCM, it may or may not be present over bitstream. Some ES/EX discs don't even have the flag to start with. So again, it's usually best to verify whether the flag is present and use the 805 decoders appropriately. Even if the flag is not there, the audio is the same, so decoding will reproduce the sounds as they were intended.

Hope this helps.
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post #16 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Repeat, it does absolutely nothing to the 5:1 channels, it doesn't even "remove" anything from the side surrounds, it only ADDS the rear 2 channels, using sounds that are present in the sides.

What you're describing is how PLIIx Music mode works: rear information is sent to speakers behind you without being cancelled from the sides, giving you rear plus side envelopment. With PLIIx Movie mode, rear information is indeed cancelled from the sides, emphasizing rear versus side separation.

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post #17 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 07:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Putting aside the local pissing contest, here's a brief explanation. There really aren't any HD discs that have 6:1 encoding. The 805 is fully capable of matrixing 7:1 from the 5:1 MPCM, and it will sound terrific. I personally prefer to use the PLIIx decoder. Assuming appropriate speaker placement, it should give you a "deeper" sound field to the rear. No, it does not degrade the audio quality. In fact, it does nothing at all to the 5 channels, it only ADDS 2 more channels. Repeat, it does absolutely nothing to the 5:1 channels, it doesn't even "remove" anything from the side surrounds, it only ADDS the rear 2 channels, using sounds that are present in the sides. If your system is properly set up and calibrated, you will be only barely aware of the 2 rears, but you will perceive greater depth to the rear.

Now, on SD-DVDs that DO have ES/EX encoding, the ES/EX flag will not be sent by the A3 over MPCM, it may or may not be present over bitstream. Some ES/EX discs don't even have the flag to start with. So again, it's usually best to verify whether the flag is present and use the 805 decoders appropriately. Even if the flag is not there, the audio is the same, so decoding will reproduce the sounds as they were intended.

Hope this helps.

That's just what I needed, thanks!
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post #18 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What you're describing is how PLIIx Music mode works: rear information is sent to speakers behind you without being cancelled from the sides, giving you rear plus side envelopment. With PLIIx Movie mode, rear information is indeed cancelled from the sides, emphasizing rear versus side separation.

Sanjay, thanks very much for that posting. Its the most cogent description of the difference between Movie & Music mode I have found. Much appreciated.
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post #19 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

What you're describing is how PLIIx Music mode works: rear information is sent to speakers behind you without being cancelled from the sides, giving you rear plus side envelopment. With PLIIx Movie mode, rear information is indeed canceled from the sides, emphasizing rear versus side separation.

Sanjay

You may well be correct, but my ears disagree. I can hear the same sounds coming from side and rear if I go stand between them. PLIIx Music, OTOH, sounds a bit like what you describe for PLIIX Movie, but I rarely use it.
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post #20 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 10:02 PM
 
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You're confusing channels with speakers. Movie soundtracks are mixed using arrays of surround speakers that wrap around the whole theatre.

But the same version does not make it to home theater and it is re wroked and re engineered. Plus the array of speakers are not fed a seperate signal/channel they are there for filler since there is such a great distance between speakers.
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post #21 of 56 Old 02-18-2008, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

You may well be correct, but my ears disagree.

I can't argue what your ears hear, just describe what the processing does. You can e-mail Dolby for confirmation.

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post #22 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Beta_max View Post

But the same version does not make it to home theater and it is re wroked and re engineered.

Sometimes, not always. In either case, left/right/back directionality remains consistent. The primary difference is that surround-back imaging doesn't collapse for off-axis listeners. BTW, you still haven't described how extracting surround-back information makes it "worse then the original".
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Plus the array of speakers are not fed a seperate signal/channel they are there for filler since there is such a great distance between speakers.

So much for your "engineered for 2 back speakers" claim. Like I said, you're confusing channels with speakers. One has nothing to do with the other.

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post #23 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 06:12 AM
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In a 7.1 system, if you send a 5.1 TrueHD stream through HDMI for decoding in a 9.8 processor, I should not hear anything from my rear surrounds. If I send the same 5.1 TrueHD stream to be decoded by Dolby Pro Logic IIx, the front channels will remain unaltered but the sides surround information will be used to create rear surround channels.

Is this correct?

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post #24 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 06:18 AM
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Yes. Pro Logic IIx, given a 5.1 source, processes the 2 surround channels to create 4 new channels, 1 for each surround speaker. It doesn't modify the fronts or LFE.

Having said that, on the quality front, you may want to check how good the Dolby processing is. Some receivers will only perform Dolby post-processing at 48kHz, so you'd lose quality from a 96kHz source (even from the fronts). And I don't know of any that do post-processing at 192kHz. The more modern a receiver is, the more likely it is do do 96kHz processing. Most don't actively advertise 96kHz processing, apart from Denon, so it can be hard to tell (unless the receiver refuses outright to process 96kHz sources, rather than downsampling).
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post #25 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 07:51 AM
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Both choices (to pst process or not) have merrit here.... It's taken me a while, but these days way more often than not, I just let the audio play native without post processing and leaving 5.1 as 5.1.........


But as I posted before, it's your software, you own it, use it how you see fit. I'm not beyond turning it on either though. Never say never.
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post #26 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 12:41 PM
 
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Sometimes, not always. In either case, left/right/back directionality remains consistent. The primary difference is that surround-back imaging doesn't collapse for off-axis listeners.

So if one has a proper setup and enough room so that the listeners are not "off axis" would you still run PLIIX/Logic7?
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post #27 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Beta_max View Post

So if one has a proper setup and enough room so that the listeners are not "off axis" would you still run PLIIX/Logic7?

Sure. Even for a single listener seated in the sweet spot there are advantages to going beyond 2 surround speakers. More precise left-vs-right & rear-vs-side directionality (no magic involved, just speakers placed to your left, to your right and behind you). Greater wrap-around envelopment (4 speakers can literally 'surround' you better than 2 speakers ever could).

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post #28 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 06:25 PM
 
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Sure. Even for a single listener seated in the sweet spot there are advantages to going beyond 2 surround speakers. More precise left-vs-right & rear-vs-side directionality (no magic involved, just speakers placed to your left, to your right and behind you). Greater wrap-around envelopment (4 speakers can literally 'surround' you better than 2 speakers ever could).

Well I still do not see the point since the matterial was not disigned for it but that is a difference of opinion. When running a surround post processing mode how does it affect the front end?
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post #29 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Beta_max View Post

Well I still do not see the point since the matterial was not disigned for it but that is a difference of opinion.

By "it", do you mean a specific number of surround speakers? Because that's not what soundtracks are designed for. For example: Dolby Surround encoded soundtracks have a mono surround channel but are designed to be played back using at least 2 surround speakers. The number of discrete channels in a soundtrack doesn't mean it was designed for the same number of speakers; not in a commercial cinema nor in a home theatre.
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When running a surround post processing mode how does it affect the front end?

Depends on the surround processing. PLIIx only processes 2 channels at any given time. So if you apply it to a stereo source, then it will see 2 main channels and scale it to 6 or 7 speakers. If you apply it to a discrete multi-channel source, then it will only see the 2 surround channels and scale it to 3 or 4 surround speakers. But since it only processes 2 channels, that means the front 3 channels and .1/LFE channel are never touched.

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post #30 of 56 Old 02-19-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by sdurani View Post

PLIIx only processes 2 channels at any given time. So if you apply it to a stereo source, then it will see 2 main channels and scale it to 6 or 7 speakers. If you apply it to a discrete multi-channel source, then it will only see the 2 surround channels and scale it to 3 or 4 surround speakers. But since it only processes 2 channels, that means the front 3 channels and .1/LFE channel are never touched.

Sanjay

I actually think the PLIIx really shines best with 2-ch tracks, in particular the Dolby Surround tracks. Of course, GIGO, but a well mixed Dolby surround track can be quite stunning via PLIIx decoding.
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